Wow - I could have written that post about my first M. I was forever writing long "I'm sorry for whatever I did" letters to ex-H. I demonstrated very little self respect, the R was very intense. Actually, I don't think I started to regain/learn the self respect until the later years of the R, I was 18 when we started dating. When we divorced he gave me back the letters in a dramatic gesture. I spent an afternoon re-reading them, reflecting on them and then I threw them away. I didn't burn them or tear them up, I merely threw them away and accepted that I had grown far beyond that. It is partly for that reason that I kept the diamond from my engagement ring and made it into a pendant that I wear frequently - it reminds me how far I have come. Ex-H is still very dramatic (he calls once in a while and demonstrates this), he is still very psychologically damaged and I know that I wouldn't have been able to change that dynamic with him. I hope he can change himself and be a good partner to someone else but it doesn't work with us.
Current H and I have far less drama 1/10 of the drama, maybe less. It used to actually make me feel unloved. I was confused by the lack of intensity. I have learned to appreciate it.
I guess I'm wondering Heather whether your H is at a place where you can let those letters and that Heather go and have a new R with each other. I think your H kind of likes to keep that drama going - i.e. the bed issue. You've come far from that young girl (let the "weak" go, it is really youth and inexperience) - does he know that?
Ok...so you have grown from that woman you used to be, who wanted to please her H so much that she'd shave her head if he said to. IMPO, that's not a bad thing. I have to wonder though, if some of what he's looking for is at least a part of that woman you used to be...the one who did write him love letters. You probably have tried that I'm sure, to an extent....haven't you?
I know you don't have that intense flood of emotion for him that you did back then (at least not right now), but you've said a few times that he's looking for something from you....well, if that's something you did in the past that eventually worked, could he be wondering why you aren't doing that now? You appeared genuine to him back then to some extent, so he'd eventually give in and stop acting like a horses ass (it impacted him). If you haven't done that now....or perhaps not as much as you did back then...it could be a big huge obvious absence to him.
For whatever reason, those love letters might have meant much more to him than you realize....especially if he's kept them.
Could you try to write him some lovely letters consistently....for a period of time. They don't have to be all flowery and falling all over him, I think you can still be genuine to yourself....would it be worth a try to you?
Also, that's great that you realize now that he hasn't disrespected you in quite some time, IMPO that shows a shifting of the tide in your favor.
Changing the dynamics of a relationship is darn hard work. I think it helps if you can get mental clarity. The more accurately you can view the relationship, the more apt you'll be to impact it. I ran across this website and thought some of the info might be of use to you because you seem to be at that place where you're examining the complete relationship dynamics and not just those on your side of the ledger.
This information was gathered by Lauren LaBate, a crisis volunteer and a student of a Victimology course. She also did a review of the book entitled Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward, Ph.D.
COMPONENTS OF EMOTIONAL BLACKMAIL (1) Demand--someone wants something (2) Resistance--the other is does not feel comfortable with the demand (3) Pressure --used to make the resistant one give in (4) Threat --to turn up the pressure (5) Compliance--on the part of the resistant one (6) Repetition--this pattern reoccurs in at least other situations (just with a different name)
TYPES OF BLACKMAILERS (1) The Punisher--very direct about their demands, clearly state the consequences (2) The Self-Punisher--uses threats of self harm to manipulate the resistant one through fear, obligation and guilt (3) The Sufferer--the martyr who believes they’ve done everything for others and suffered because of it and don’t hesitate to remind them so they will feel sorry for them (4) The Tantalizer--uses bribery, knowing they have something the other wants
EMOTIONS FELT BY VICTIMS OF EMOTIONAL BLACKMAIL They feel insecure, unimportant, unworthy and generally bad about themselves They doubt their ideas and needs They feel isolated They may have consistent physical ailments as a result of the stress They always feel as if they in a FOG unable to think clearly as a result of being manipulated to feel Fear, Obligation and Guilt
TOOLS USED TO CREATE FOG Making demands seem reasonable Making the victim feel selfish Labeling with negative qualities and connotations Pathologizing or crazy making Making a demand that needs an immediate response Allying themselves with someone of authority or influence i.e. parents, children, mental health professionals, religious leaders etc. Comparing the victim to a person that the victim does not like or is in competition with Learning the victim's "triggers" Assess how much pressure to apply before the victim will give in
CHARACTERISTICS OF THE VICTIM Constantly seeks approval Does their best to avoid anger and keep peace Takes the blame for anything that happens to others Has compassion and empathy Tends to feel pity or obligation Believes they need to give in because it is the “right thing to do” Has self-doubt with no sense of their worth, intelligence or abilities
CHARACTERISTICS OF AN EMOTIONAL BLACKMAILER Has great fear of abandonment and deprivation or of being hurt Feels desperate Needs to be in control of things Experiences frequent frustration Has thought distortions regarding the reasonableness of their demands Has had someone emotionally blackmail them and sees that it works to get them what they want
WHAT IS NECESSARY TO STOP EMOTIONAL BLACKMAIL The victim must begin to look at the situation in a new way. They must detach from their emotions. They must realize that they are being blackmailed and that it is not appropriate for the blackmailer to be treating them in that manner. They must make a commitment to themselves that they will take care of themselves and no longer allow this abusive treatment. They need to see that a demand is being made on them and that it makes them uncomfortable. They must determine why the demand feels uncomfortable. They must not give into the pressure for an immediate decision. They must set boundaries to be able to take time to consider the situation and to look at all of the alternatives to make the decision. Finally, they must consider their own needs first for a change, in this process.
I’m not much into computer games, Gameboy, etc., but I have played with S9 and he REALLY enjoys it when we do. When in the game, the two of us are equals, not father/son. He is much more capable than I at slaying those monsters and bad guys, so we become a real team, even though it is only in cyberspace. But there is a true bonding that takes place, which he just can’t get with his mother when she tries to play the games. Women and girls just don’t seem to get into the action games like boys do.
When we play, he can cover my back as I cover his. He can feel even save me at times since he is the better player. He feels powerful, competent and valued. When I see him like this I feel good too. I feel connected to him. We have shared an experience together. It is male bonding.
My question to you Heather is when was the last time you gave your H this kind of admiration, like he is now getting from your son?
Mrs.NOP,
I have mixed emotions over the emotional blackmail viewpoint. My wife has latched onto this POV over the last several years and really seems to identify with the victim role, focusing on every bad thing I ever did to justify her anger. It creates a self fulfilling cycle that is not productive. It is all a deflection to maintain walls and defenses and avoid the need to make herself vulnerable.
I do not believe Heather’s H suffers from a personality disorder so I do not think he is incurable. He suffers from a narcissistic and abusive family background, just as Heather does, and knows of no other way to sooth his hurt than to lash out in anger. Susan Forward’s book is of no service in this regard. It perpetuates stronger defenses, more attacks, less empathy and compassion. I think Stosny’s book, “You Don’t Have to Take it Anymore” is far superior in understanding this issue and offering productive advice on how to overcome this problem.
That said, there are abusive situations in which a wife needs to wake up and realize the abuse she is taking. Maybe Heather marriage is this type too, but I really don’t think so. (I think Chrissy’s marriage is definitely like that!) Heather does need to get out of the victim mentality, just as her H does. But they have already focused way too much on the anger, which is what keeps them chained in their dance. Susan Forward can only make this worse, IMO.
I have mixed emotions over the emotional blackmail viewpoint. My wife has latched onto this POV over the last several years and really seems to identify with the victim role, focusing on every bad thing I ever did to justify her anger. It creates a self fulfilling cycle that is not productive. It is all a deflection to maintain walls and defenses and avoid the need to make herself vulnerable.
Unlike how your wife has been described, Heather seems to experience a deep sense of guilt, responsibilty and unworthiness.
According to the book:
The protective qualities that we have that open us up to emotional blackmail are:
An excessive need for approval
An intense fear of anger
A need for peace at any price
A tendency to take too much responsibility for other people's lives
A high level of self-doubt.
I think Heather has written posts describing herself that touch upon the list written above. I don't think many of the above describe your wife.
I also think that *both* spouses can be emotional blackmailers.
I agree with what you say, I only feel Heather has a lot of pent up resentment, as does her H, that is blocking their growth. In my experience, books like this do not seem to focus on the root problem, but are meant to wake up the woman (and they are almost exclusively written to women) to the abuse they are taking and fight back. That is a necessary step, but Heather has already been doing that for some time, with no gain to show for it. So I do not think that is the core of her problem.
Quote: In my experience, books like this do not seem to focus on the root problem, but are meant to wake up the woman (and they are almost exclusively written to women) to the abuse they are taking and fight back. That is a necessary step, but Heather has already been doing that for some time, with no gain to show for it. So I do not think that is the core of her problem.
I don't agree that the push is to "fight back". It appears to me that it's more along the lines of:
* You're not crazy, something is off kilter.
* Recognize the dance.
* Determine your part of the dance.
* Change your part of the dance.
To change a hardcore established dynamic between two people - one person *has* to step out of the existing loop. But you have to recognize that there is a loop.
I guess I'm wondering Heather whether your H is at a place where you can let those letters and that Heather go and have a new R with each other.
We're getting there I think. Some days it feels like things will never change, but other days I can see progress. Every time he pulls a power play, it sets us farther back in this area. I can't let go of the past if it's happening in the present as well....if I want a R with him that is. If I walked away, of course I could let it go.
You've come far from that young girl (let the "weak" go, it is really youth and inexperience) - does he know that?
Yeah he does, and sometimes I think he resents it. He's indicated that I'm controlling and he constantly tells me how selfish I am and how I have to have everything my way. I often wonder if he doesn't want to fix this M simply because he doesn't want to give me what I want.
But I can start with the way I view my past, and you're right 'weak' isn't really the right way to look at it. I was simply young and I have to stop being so hard on myself. Can anyone explain 'ego' to me? I always thought of someone who thinks they are perfect as having a 'big ego'. But I've seen it used in reference to people who are actually too hard on themselves and I'm having some trouble making that connection, but perhpas that is something I need to see in myself even though the connotations of having a big ego are ugly to me.
Ok...so you have grown from that woman you used to be, who wanted to please her H so much that she'd shave her head if he said to. IMPO, that's not a bad thing.
It's probably not a bad thing if you can do it from a place where you actually do it for yourself because it's a choice you make to make a statement to your partner or for some other such reason. But I acted out of guilt, shame, fear....I had REactions, not conscious decisions that resulted in actions. See the difference?
I have to wonder though, if some of what he's looking for is at least a part of that woman you used to be...the one who did write him love letters. You probably have tried that I'm sure, to an extent....haven't you?
This is really something for me to think hard about. I've tried it to a certain extent, but I can see where my efforts would have fallen short because the love/admiration isn't really there anymore. I've sort of gone from feeling I couldn't live without him to feeling that I'd be better off on my own right now. That sort of a shift in attitude is going to come through in everything I do. I really need to work on positive statements and reinforcing behaviors whenever I possibly can because it totally makes sense that he would be needing at least some of the things I gave him in the beginning. Your post was very insightful GEL, thanks.
Changing the dynamics of a relationship is darn hard work.
You can say that again! Before I recognized that I was unhappy in my R, when people said M can be hard work I didn't have a clue of the truth in that statement. There is absolutely no way to fathom the frustration and heartbreak that occurs on a daily basis. I always though heartbreak was something that happens and it takes a while to 'forget'. I've learned that heartbreak can be a process as well as a one time event....and I've learned that the 'break' can be more of a fracture that never seems to heal.
Thank you for the excerpts on emotional blackmail. When my H was using my kids against me I caught on pretty quick that there was something going on outside of the normal R dynamics. Probably about a year ago, I bought the book you've recommended. I read it and recognized much of the behavior both in my H and in myself. I agree that both parties can be guilty as each partner tries to relate to the other in the way that their partner relates to them...i.e. giving a dose of 'their own medicine' and the R becomes a cycle.
Cobra: He suffers from a narcissistic and abusive family background, just as Heather does, and knows of no other way to sooth his hurt than to lash out in anger.
I've given the background on my FOO, but I'm curious as to how you came to these conclusions about my H? He didn't have an abusive family background and I haven't given any thought to whether or not it was narcisstic.
But they have already focused way too much on the anger, which is what keeps them chained in their dance.
Agreed.
To change a hardcore established dynamic between two people - one person *has* to step out of the existing loop. But you have to recognize that there is a loop.
Exactly. I hear you loud and clear and I also see Cobra's point, but I see that you are not suggesting that I dwell on H's bad behavior or my own for that matter, only to be able to recognize it so that I can change it and break the cycle. I would say that out of the last two years, a year and half has been focusing on exactly that.
In my experience, books like this do not seem to focus on the root problem, but are meant to wake up the woman (and they are almost exclusively written to women) to the abuse they are taking and fight back. That is a necessary step, but Heather has already been doing that for some time, with no gain to show for it.
I wouldn't say that there has been no gain. I think there has been quite a bit of gain, although it may not single handedly save my M. In fact, in the end, perhaps standing up for myself will actually be what ends my M. But to measure the amount of personal gain in terms of whether or not my M is saved is probably not the way to go. I'm becoming the person I need to be, refining my beliefs and opinions and trying to act accordingly meanwhile not taking any of H's BS. For a really long time, I thought it was a futile effort, remember all my posts that asked 'how do I "not take it"'??? I used to be slightly offended by such posts because they indicated that there was something I could magically do to prove to H that he was being an a@@. I would try my best to stand up for myself, several backslides would occur as my anger would get the best of me in those situations. But I stuck with it because it's the new me quite frankly. And you know what? This past week, I have some evidence that it might be affecting the dynamics of my R....FINALLY!!! I'll post more on that later, but the point I wanted to make is that I do feel there has been much personal gain.
I’m not much into computer games, Gameboy, etc., but I have played with S9 and he REALLY enjoys it when we do. When in the game, the two of us are equals, not father/son. He is much more capable than I at slaying those monsters and bad guys, so we become a real team, even though it is only in cyberspace....When we play, he can cover my back as I cover his. He can feel even save me at times since he is the better player. He feels powerful, competent and valued. When I see him like this I feel good too. I feel connected to him. We have shared an experience together.
This is good stuff Cobra, thanks. From your words, I can see a little more into the 'why' the video games create bonding. I can see the importance of these kinds of interactions too, where your child feels that they are truly your equal, your friend.
It is male bonding.
Disagree. It is bonding. Not necessarily male bonding. Sounds like your W doesn't like video games....I grew up on them. I was a Nintendo freak. I can totally get into video games if I can find one I like. It's my new mission Cobra, thanks
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
He's indicated that I'm controlling and he constantly tells me how selfish I am and how I have to have everything my way. I often wonder if he doesn't want to fix this M simply because he doesn't want to give me what I want.
One thing I recall from counseling on this topic was that when people say things like this, they are sometimes actually talking about themselves. You H accuses you of being controlling, but that is only because he is able to see it, because it takes one to know one, KWIM?
Can anyone explain 'ego' to me?
I have often seen confusion between ego and pride. To me, someone is acting egotistical when their actions or words are focused on enhancing him/herself, puffing up like a peacock to look good to others, but for the purpose of receiving praise and admiration to feel good. Pride, in my view, is doing or acting in some way for the purpose of an external principle, like the pride you see when people speak of their heritage, nationality, or something of that nature. They associate with the praise that may be given to that principle, but are secondary to the principle.
Ego in relationship terms is focused more on being true to yourself, like Corri has been discussing lately, not painting a false image of yourself but truthfully acknowledging weakness, etc. But I also think one’s perception of someone else as an egotistical person is a direct function of your own self image. Someone who is arrogant to one person may not seem that way to another. The two people making the evaluation may have totally different self images and therefore perceive this third person in different ways. So I think ego has a lot of relative aspects to it.
…. I can see where my efforts would have fallen short because the love/admiration isn't really there anymore. I've sort of gone from feeling I couldn't live without him to feeling that I'd be better off on my own right now. That sort of a shift in attitude is going to come through in everything I do.
And your H knows it….
I've given the background on my FOO, but I'm curious as to how you came to these conclusions about my H? He didn't have an abusive family background and I haven't given any thought to whether or not it was narcisstic.
I thought you mentioned some time back that you both came from dysfunctional families, not necessarily abusive but dysfunctional enough that you both wanted out and turned to each other for escape. Actually, I can’t possibly see how your H could not come from a narcissistic setting, which IS abusive. The control issues in him that you talk about are just too clear.
This is good stuff Cobra, thanks. From your words, I can see a little more into the 'why' the video games create bonding. I can see the importance of these kinds of interactions too, where your child feels that they are truly your equal, your friend.
I was a Nintendo freak. I can totally get into video games if I can find one I like. It's my new mission Cobra, thanks.
The second part of this is to understand WHY he needs this fulfillment and what you are not doing to give that to him. I’m willing to bet that you did give him that support at one time. The video game is not the issue. His fear of abandonment is the issue. You can sooth that fear in more ways than just playing video games.
You two may be arriving at a new phase in your marriage, like my wife and I. After the ultimatums and power plays have been allowed to run their course, and neither of you really flinch, you learn that those tactics are not the answer. But until you go through them, the idea of using power is the only thing in your mind. For my wife and I, we HAD to go through this cycle. I HAD to use power against her because that is the only language she really understood. I fully believe this in my heart.
Now we are slowly moving to a new phase in which we can mutually support one another in return for getting our own needs met. After some time at this level, I think we can then evolve to yet another higher level.
Remember that I have said a few times that from a philosophical perspective, relationships, like societies, are base on three levels. Democratic authority is granted to a government because it is recognized by the people to be legitimate. But underlying this legitimacy is the understanding that it is backed up by power. Without power everything else crumbles. You have no cause to respect any law if you know there is no sheriff to enforce it. The chaos in Afghanistan and Iraq are perfect examples of this. Once order is restore through power (in a legitimate and not dictatorial way) the laws of society will be respected.
That lesson is what I have been going through in my marriage, and one which I see you and your H learning too. It is a requirement. For those raised in a narcissistic family, these lessons are circumvented. The only rule is the use of power to override the needs of others in order to have yours met first. The kids always lose since they are the weakest. So they learn to deal with their insecurities and fears the best they can and wait for the day they have enough power to meet their own needs, just like mom and dad. Isn’t this what you went through?
