Absolutely no offense taken. I know it seems like banging one's head against a brick wall to insist someone get treatement for what mostly seems like manipulative, bad behavior. In fact, it may be, just that. That is why I suggest only dealing with the ADD as a "fact of life" until otherwise convinced of other problems. I will say, that if it turns out that Mrs. Cobra is simply enjoying having a label for poor behavior then a really good diagnostician will see that. If, indeed, she "can't help it" to some extent then it is helpful to know that. FWIW - I DO think she has some serious issues and I DO think that she can do better but she chooses not to by hiding behind some half thought out "names" for the things she does.
Anyway, Bf, your comments were very understandable and I don't take offense at all. My ex-H very much enjoyed the "sick" role and still does - having a label just seems to give some folks license to behave as badly as possible.
It is important that Cobra stick to his role in things - supportive not co-dependent, husband not parent, co-parent not glorified babysitter. These distinctions are important to maintain. I'll bet Mrs. Cobra is petrified that Cobra really find out just what the h*ll is going on with her. It is easier to keep acting out and hiding behind a lot of psychobabble bull crap.
Your comments give me some comfort. If what you say is true and that she hides behind a wall of crap, as I suspect, then my frustration in our marraige over these many years is just not due to my issues. What you suggest is just what our C and I are recently seeing and trying to bring up to W, hence her decision to stop going to counseling. Things are coming into a little more focus...
Quote: my frustration in our marraige over these many years is just not due to my issues.
This leapt off the screen at me.
Cobra, do you have internal voices that say the problems are due to you, and is that why you're always looking for stuff in your W's background (FOO), etc.? To prove those voices wrong?
Don't get me wrong: it's absolutely clear that the problems in a R always come from both parties or the combo of both parties, but I'm wondering if YOU feel-- even subconsciously-- that maybe the probs are due mostly to you?
Is that why it's so hard for you to let yourself really FEEL the part of the problems that you bring to the table? Is that just tooo painful, so when we suggest you make changes, you deflect, deflect, deflect.
Does someone in your family (besides your W) believe that if YOU just straightened yourself out, grew up, acted like a man, <fill in the blank with some family platitude>, there wouldn't be any problems in your marriage?
Please give this some thought... don't just give me a knee-jerk deflection
I have been told for years by W that the problems we have are almost exclusively because of me and my anger, abuse, etc. I know that I react and blow up when I can’t take it anymore. So in this way I know I am culpable. But I also know that I am not the root of the problems that create the environment which cause me to get angry. Yet I have been told over and over this is so. W has tried to tell the C and anyone else who would listen that I am by nature hyper-critical and angry. I do not that that is so. But I can’t help to realize I do contribute by playing into her game. Over the years it becomes hard to tell where our problems end with me and begin with her, and vice versa. After a while, you can’t help but buy into this.
I do not think my family sees me as the problem. They do tell me I should be more diplomatic and adjust my delivery, but what they all tell me is they think W is simply over the top. I was not raise in an environment that created a lot of self confidence. I knew I was smarter than most. I could hold my own athletically. But I was smaller than most and less outgoing. I also knew enough to know what I didn’t know. I know for a fact that the kids that seemed so confident didn’t have any idea what they were talking about. Yet they acted like they did. To avoid this, I also questioned myself first. This way of thinking spills over into my marriage, especially with W who projects the epitome of self confidence and assertiveness.
Psychology is not my field. Yet I have learned enough to have serious doubts about W’s claims. On the one hand I cannot know for sure, but on the other I know what I know, and I also know that I am not crazy and my senses do not deceive me. So when people tell me to make a change and it does not square with the experience I have in dealing with W, I just can’t go along with it. But that still does not mean I think I am right. I just know this one thing isn’t necessarily right either.
There is some power struggle involved too. But after years of putting up with this mess, it’s hard not to fall to that level. For the past few years she has been generally more balanced, without the highs and lows. The meds have helped with this. Today, things are quiet. We have been here many times before. I used to think that when we reconciled, we had turned some kind of corner. I started to hope we could grow closer together. Then the next fight would erupt. So even now I am not holding my breath, but waiting for the next fight to begin, and I think she is too.
I suppose I have come to learn that fighting and standing up to W is the only thing that works, or at least, being nice and calm (the carrot) cannot work alone without the stick. The thought of being only nice, letting her rant and rage while I calmly hold to my boundaries, is just more than I can bear. I know this comes from my FOO with my mother. But once you empower yourself and stand up to an abuser, it is SOOO hard to back down again. Holding to calm assertive boundaries still feels an awful lot like backing down to me. And that is probably why you think I am deflecting. I just can’t bring myself to do it.
Quote: The thought of being only nice, letting her rant and rage while I calmly hold to my boundaries, is just more than I can bear.
(((((Cobra))))) I do understand... It's like standing by and watching someone beat a puppy or a child... you just can't let them "get away" with it.
And you can't "logic" yourself out of this POV either, because it's probably at a pre-verbal place, a place before reason.
Bear in mind that when your W is ranting and raving [THIS IS IMPORTANT] she IS beating a puppy with a baseball bat-- but the puppy she's beating isn't YOU, it's HER. That kind of rage and lashing out only comes from a place of extreme self-hatred. Think about it.
You, in fact, are not being damaged in any way by her words... they are truly just words. If she were screaming them in a foreign language that you didn't understand, they wouldn't hurt at all. Her anger doesn't hurt or damage you either... UNLESS you engage, and then your reflexive anger damages you.
But there I go being logical... and logic is useless here.
You cannot teach kindness to puppies OR people with a stick, especially when they're already hurting.
My bf and I are taking a class called "Forgive Yourself." It's hard to forgive others sometimes-- well, ALL the time-- LOL! But you can start with forgiving yourself by yourself without any reference to her. This is what is meant by being kind to yourself. Forgive yourself for hurting yourself with criticism, feelings of failure, lashing out, regrets about marrying, being tired of working on the R... just forgive yourself. Anytime you have a thought about some way you've failed to live up to your expectations, or hers, or the kids-- just forgive yourself and move on. Even if you do the same thing over and over again... forgive yourself over and over. I have found that that thought, "I forgive myself," really brings relief. Just focus on YOU. Be kind to you.
I find it so interesting that you mentioned this (My bf and I are taking a class called "Forgive Yourself.")
Literally doing an exercise to forgive myself under extreme times of pressure and crisis is something I started doing about 10 years ago. Cobra...I don't know if this will help you at all....but I'll describe this exercise I do....it may sound absolutely ludicrous to you, but for me....it's amazing the pressure it releases and how much lighter I feel for doing it. Bear with me guys...this might get a bit long.
About 10 years ago I had to make a decision, one of those where....there is no good option. It involved a Bi-polar XBF and trying to get him out of my life. One decision meant that I put myself in jeapordy (which I was confident I could handle)...but doing that meant it would really hurt my parents. The other option meant putting the physical well-being of my parents in jeapordy, not something I could do. Unfortunately....my XBF was severly unbalanced and would have done damage. So instead I took the cowards way out, left in the middle of the night from my folks house, leaving them a note as to what I had done and why.....and came back to OK to deal with my XBF. Due to doing what I felt I had to do....my father didn't speak to me for nearly two years. I knew that was probably what would happen when I took the course that I did....but that was the preferrable option over their possible physical harm.
Anyway...towards the end of the 2-year period that my father wasn't speaking to me I was having a conversation with a close friend of mine. During that conversation she was actually telling me that I was a hero of hers for doing what I had to do knowing the possible consequences...I didn't feel like a hero, I felt like crap because I had hurt my father so. I remember so clearly at that time saying to her when she was beating my father down for being hard on me "my dad may be hard on me, but that's because he just doesn't understand WHY I had to do what I did.....no one can be harder on me than I am." That was an epiphany moment for me in the car, right then and there. I was feeling such a load of guilt and pressure....from doing that to my parents, but the guilt and pressure were no longer being put on by my parents....my mom and I were fine, my dad was coming around....I was doing it to myself."
That day when I got home I found myself looking into the eyes of a woman in pain....I just stared at her for what felt like eons....eventually I heard the words from her "I forgive you.".....I was staring at myself in the mirror and as I said those words I broke down....those were three of the hardest words I've ever had to utter, and some of the most powerful as well. It was so cathardic...I forgave myself for doing what I felt I had to do to protect my parents, I forgave myself for marrying a man who would beat me...not because I had control of his actions but because of the shame I felt for enduring it and not feeling worthy, I forgave myself for all sorts of things right then and there....and I felt so much lighter.
I did the same thing not too long after I found out what my H had been doing online....I forgave myself for all sorts of toxic feelings I'd been having, I forgave myself for self-doubt, lack of courage to confront him, putting off what had to be done....I don't even remember everything that came out that time, but I literally stood there staring at myself again saying "I forgive you for...." over and over. Once again I felt lighter, I felt better.
So, sorry this was so long guys....but Lil, it's all your fault LOL....you reminded me of this. Sorry for the threadjacking.
That wasn't hijacking, GEL, that was very relevant to cobra's and to all our sitch's really.
You wrote
Quote: not because I had control of his actions but because of the shame I felt for enduring it
I think this is key-- anything that causes us to feel shame is something we need to forgive ourselves for. Again, it's not logical... but it works.
The fact that our partner is mean, or unresponsive, or drinks, or rages-- these things aren't our "fault," but we feel shame associated with these behaviors of someone else. I know I felt shame about my bf's drinking. He drank long before I ever met him and I knew it wasn't my fault, but I felt ashamed of telling anyone. I felt ashamed to go to alanon. Shame is a way of beating up on ourselves. And forgiving ourselves is a way of stopping the beating up.
This says it all
Quote: I forgave myself for all sorts of toxic feelings I'd been having, I forgave myself for self-doubt, lack of courage to confront him, putting off what had to be done....I don't even remember everything that came out that time, but I literally stood there staring at myself again saying "I forgive you for...." over and over. Once again I felt lighter, I felt better.
Those of us who hang out on this board are here because of discontent with an important part of our relationships. Some of us have been told by others to get out, to stand up for ourselves, to set boundaries, to stop tolerating this that and the other thing... and if we haven't done these things, we probably do feel some shame somewhere. Stop right now and forgive yourself-- everyone-- forgive yourself for not protecting yourself with boundaries, for not getting out, for continuing to placate your spouse, for coming back again and again, for being (if you're calling yourself these names) "weak," "stupid," "a wuss," "a pushover," "coward," "chicken"-- and THEN forgive yourself for shaming yourself.
Don't even worry about forgiving your partner yet... just extend infinite kindness to YOURSELF first.
Thanks for sharing that story.
(I think hijacking means taking the thread off on an unrelated tangent. You certainly didn't do that. And anyway, if you did, cobra would FORGIVE you! )
I just did, just a few months ago... the same thing. I had to forgive myself for leaving my M and hurting my kids.... when I KNEW, KNEW in my heart, it was the decision I had to make.
That may sound like a real cop out to a lot of people, and maybe it is... I wont' rehash how I came to my decision or why, for it doesn't matter to anyone else.
I did the same thing for my abuse... for I forgave my abuser many, many, many years before I ever forgave myself. And not until I forgave myself, could I actually heal.
It's one thing to say it, it is another thing to actually DO it. To no longer carry the shame.
There is a saying about Justice. Justice is paying for a crime once. Suffering is paying for a crime, over and over and over again. Shame IS suffering, and it is completely and utterly ego based, believe it or not. For in feeling shame, you get to always keep the attention on you. "My God! Look what I did! Look what I endure! Etc., Etc."
If you forgive yourself, there is no one left to blame... and you have to move on and.... live.
I am really impressed with this thread. I think, through illustrating some of our stories Cobra is more able to see the similarities/familiarity with some aspects of his sitch. Cobra, there is some really good stuff on here. It wouldn't hurt at all to reread this thread with a non-judgemental eye - look for some of the deflections, look for the things that ring true, look for some strategies that just might work. I'm sorry that your sitch is so complicated and I hope that at some point Mrs. Cobra gets motivated to really solve the issues - for herself, the kids and you.
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