Muddle's Waters III

[grasshopper]

It's kind of like when my mother used to get up from the dinner table and scream about how she was going to kill herself. It was all talk - her way of venting her frustration.

Um, well, I'm not trying to judge your mother either, but it is possible you are tolerant of your W's actions in this respect because your mom did/said equally inappropriate things in front of you when you were a kid? NEITER of those things, your mother saying (and I assume it SOUNDED real at the time) that she was going to kill herself, nor your W wishing harm to you and your son are "normal" in the usual sense.

I know you know your sitch much more than us but realize that no matter how frank and honest your W is, a mother wishing harm to her child in ANY way is a little twisted to say the least. Sorry, that's just how I see it, and I don't think I could sweep that under the rug so easily.

GH

[MuddleThrough]

Thanks guys - I know there's a lot to this, and W and I talked about doing some mediation/coparenting therapy yesterday, so we'll explore this stuff there. I know I may be desensitized to my W because of my experiences with my mother - that's part of the reason I put that in there. I think this is one of the most difficult things for me to overcome in my relationships. I am tolerant of behavior that's highly innappropriate because of what I was raised watching. We all have our cycles to break.

As for my W, I'm not trying to sweep anything under the rug here. I think this is a pretty serious indication of the depth of her depression and the polar opposite hight of her fantasy - that she's willing to even think about harm coming to her child so she can achieve it. She's in therapy, hopefully she's addressing her real issues there. I don't know.

We had one of those breakthrough talks again, where it was clear that W was working under assumptions about what I thought, and she in fact told me that she was trying to convince me that there was nothing between us. It's still very clear that she's confused, but she wants to separate and to divorce. I told her again that once she accomplished her goals we would figure out how to do it. Again she brought up that she thought it would be best if she stayed in the house with S4. She wants to get her business started so she can work from home and take care of S4. I had a really tough time of it because I felt really cornered. I don't want her to have custody, at least not the way she intends it, with his only room at "her" place. She wants to act as a family, and to be good friends. She wants me to be involved with her family. It's insane. She really has no idea what's going to happen. I told her that I thought that she was being really naive thinking that we could be in any way close after this and that our lives are going to drift apart. She said that we can do it if we put the importance of our son as our top priority. Interesting thought - maybe if you apply that thinking to our marriage, there's a chance, but the lust is far more important.

I'm not sure a 4 year old can get couseling - can they? I think he's doing great, but I really don't want him to have the idea that he has to work to keep our family together. We haven't told him (at least I haven't, I don't know what my W has said) that we're going to separate or anything. But he's seen W throw tantrums, scream and yell, fall to the floor crying because there's something standing in the way of what she wants. The more I post stuff like this the more I think he would be better away from her, but I also recognize that she loves him and occassionally does her best for him. I just don't think she's mature enough to be a parent. I really need to talk to a lawyer. It's really overwhelming, and the only good solution is the one that she's so against.

[MuddleThrough]

One more quick thought/question. W complained yesterday that I don't consider her feelings and said that the fact that I am not offering to rotate sleeping arrangements with her shows I don't care. As far as I'm concerned, she is abandoning the marriage, I'm not, so I shouldn't give up the marriage bed or room. Does this seem too rigid a POV? I don't want to cave on everything she demands, but I also don't want to disregard a valid point because of my anger or resentment. Your thoughts?

[MuddleThrough]

Well, I just had a long in depth conversation with my W. It's really difficult because she's telling me that I'm blaming her and ignoring her feelings and opinions, and I can see where she's coming from. Again, I feel like I'm in a real bind here. She's telling me that I blame all her desire to leave on the A and I'm ignoring all the real relationship issues. I told her that I really want to explore whatever issues we have in counseling, and I've always wanted to, but she keeps pointing out things that I did or do that show her that I don't care about her feelings. Her seeing me as being in denial comes from my not viewing our relationship as being unfixable. She thinks I should view it all the way she does, and thinks that I'm justifying all of my actions and perspectives with the A. To some degree she might be right, but I think there's a good deal of projection going on. She's extremely angry and tells me that she's hating me. I'm the bad guy. I'm making it difficult for her.

She kept talking about how I have made her miserable for the past 5 years and that it's not the best thing for our son for us to be together because she's going to continue to be miserable. She keeps telling me that I'm not only responsible for her misery but I'm neglectful because I never supported her. She truly thinks I don't care. At least not the way she wants me to.

I'm so sick of this all. I wish there was a way to make it all go away. I wish there was something more I could do. Everything I do and say comes back at me. She thinks I'm talking trash about her at every turn. She thinks I have an agenda. I feel horrible that she's been miserable, and I told her that I want to have any part in helping her out of this that she'd like me to. But she blames me for it. Get rid of me and the misery will go too. I can see where she gets it from, what she uses to reinforce this idea, and I wish I could change things, but it's too late. She blames me for not asking the questions (which I did, but she never wants to talk) - to her this says I don't care. I'm back at emotional level 0. Thinking level 0. I'm taking on more than I deserve. I want to be the strong one, the reason my son has a great family, an intact family. I want to be a great husband to my wife. I want to meet her needs and support her in a way I've never done before. I guess I just need to face the fact that I've failed at this DB stuff. I tried and that's what counts, but I failed. I need to move on, forget about this dream of making things work, of my determination to do the right thing meaning anything. I've learned a lot through this process, but clearly not enough to do what it takes, not the right things. I'm a better person for it, but only marginally. I haven't put into action my convictions. I have allowed my anger and resentment to be present in my actions even though I did my best to let go. It got to the point where I didn't even feel like it was present, but it was there. I was protecting myself first, looking for the good of my W and after her feelings second. This did me in - it didn't allow me to empathize enough. I explained away her issues without actually taking responsibility in a way that allowed me to act on it. I guess in the end there's nothing I could have done if she was realizing all of this. I guess I can just move on. Get out of her way.

She thinks I'm going to screw her anyway that I can. She thinks I'm out for revenge, that I'm going to make things difficult for her. Is this some manipulative effort to get her way? Or is she right? Oh, if only there was an easy way out. If only I had a source of strength and security that gave me a clear vision of what the best outcome is. I am clearly too attached to my goal. I guess I have to accept that I've lost and give up my love, my vision. I haven't been able to do so yet, and I don't know if I'll ever do so. I can accept I've lost my wife and my family, I just can't give up the fight. I can't give up my hope, my positive outlook. I love this woman from the bottom of my heart - I just can't believe that I've done so much to wrong her. I've been a monster, neglecting her - never being abusive or bad - but I've made her feel bad about herself. I know this has a lot to do with her self image, but I should have known better, I should have done more. I guess I will never make the mistake to take for granted another person the way I did here. I don't have what she needs and I never will. I could have if I had realized earlier, before she fell in love with someone else, but not now. She's not open to it. Maybe she will get there, but for now she's not.

Thanks for all your input guys. I just have a real sense of finality to this talk. Something inside me has really died. I don't know what it is, or where I'm going now. I just know that I've got a big climb ahead of me. My W has told me that I've been constructing a world around me to support my POV, and I think she's right. She's doing it too, but I'm interested in truth and self growth, so I have to do a lot of exploration to figure it out. I know my M is over. I know there were a lot of flaws in it. I know we could have made it work, or at least given it a try. I accept that this didn't happen, and it's not going to. I have to move on and move this away from my main focus. I have to accept that there are great things in store for me in my life as long as I take the initiative to work with what I have. I need to focus on doing that. Maybe once I really let go I'll get that chance. Maybe. For now, I'm done. It's over.

I'm angry. I've never said my piece. I've been wronged in the worst way possible. It's justified. My anger that is. But I'll never be able to express it. I need to let it go. Get my revenge by living the best life I can. Move forward, not be stuck in this or defined by it. Detach, detach, detach.

[whatisis]

Maybe all you can do is detach. Give her space and don't try to fix it. She can feel whatever she wants, but it don't make it so! If you both put your efforts into working together for whatever is best for your son, rather than concentrating on the M, that may be best. Isn't she the woman that thinks you can be best friends although she hates you and blames you for all her problems? Sounds like the makings of a friendship made in heaven, doesn't it. Let her flap her gums, say "I'm sorry you feel that way" and carry on. Concentrate on your sons welfare, maybe that's your only common ground right now.

[MuddleThrough]

Yeah, I think this is about all I have left to do. I thought I was doing it all already, and to some extent I was, but my emotional state today tells me I wasn't. I even at one point got to the point where I saw no way out - where I didn't want to go on at all.

I was thinking about how W said that she thinks I don't tell her what I really think about things. She thinks I'm a lier and that I have an agenda. So what do I do? I can't tell her everything that's on my mind, and yes, I do try to validate her and understand where she's coming from, but I also know that no matter what I say it's going to be used to fuel her resentment and hatred of me, so hold it in. I have to think before I speak. So this is lying? What should I say? Honey, I think you're becoming this mean, selfish person, and you're twisting reality to be what you want it to be (wait a second, that's what she told me today!) and I'm losing my respect for you because you're totally opposed to do what's best for our son because you don't want to miss out on this totally inappropriate relationship you're having with my cousin, whose family will never accept you, and your family will never accept him, because the nature of your relationship is wrong. It's a dead end, and even if you think our marrige is over and a dead end, doesn't our marriage deserve an honest look together far more than your adulterous relationship? I feel bitter and spiteful and beaten. I'm tired of feeling like this about the situation, and when I decide I'm not going to feel like this, I'm in denial. I know what's going on. I know my W doesn't want to give it a try. I know she's committed to ending things, yet it's not what I want. I need to keep fighting, but at this point, I'm not sure where to take it. I don't want to become the fight, totally absorbed in it, but I don't want to walk away either - beaten or otherwise. I haven't given it my all, but I don't know where else to go.

I can't change enough to matter. I'm too entrenched in my values. I know if we worked together at it, we could compromise and cover a lot of ground. Sadly, I'm not worthy of a real try. I'm bad enough a person that she's willing to destroy my precious son's family over. She's willing to do him damage because of this. I know on some level the fact that she can't work through our issues is her issue and the things that she pins on me are not mine, but on another level, her reality is real and I am the bad guy she's making me out to be. I know I can't take it all on myself, but I'm done protecting myself. My self esteem can be built back up, but exploring the darkest corners of my character is more important. I just don't understand how I can feel like I've been working at myself and growing and learning and then turn around now and find I've done nothing.

Damnit, I'm determined to succeed at improving myself, and I sure as hell don't want to lose the input of the woman I have loved and been close to for 5 years. I can't help thinking that more and more I'm the person that Michele keeps warning not to be. I'm the one always saying that I've got hope, that I think things can work. I'm asking for another try in a round about way. If I don't, then I'm really lying. If I said I was done and started to really turn away, then I wouldn't be being true to myself and my committment. But it's the only way. A true paradox. She's got to see that she's convinced of something that's not true. She's got to see the value in me that she's throwing away. I guess on some level I'm afraid that there isn't any, and she won't miss a thing. It doesn't really matter anyway.

[Mamabear]

Oh boy! Take a deep breath. It's not over yet. Your W is confused and angry and resents you because she can't be with OM. In the beginning of my H's A, he couldn't stand me. Didn't want to sleep in the same room as me. Looked at me with the deadest, meanest eyes I have ever seen. Today he is a different person. Just hang in there and don't give up hope!!!

[whatisis]

I agree with Mama. I also know that it's damn hard not to internalize the hurt and everything she throws at you BUT turning away, as you put it, is not giving up it is trying a new strategy. Giving her space and detaching is a strategy! Her anger may change over time and you don't HAVE to be honest with her about everything. You don't have to accept her version of your R but you have to allow to her to hold it, if she chooses to. You don't see the end (understandably) but you can acknowledge that she does, and that's where she's at.
Love for your son can be a building block between the two of you, not something to settle for! I'll be thinking of you , Muddle.

[MuddleThrough]

Alright guys. Not giving up hope. I'm glad I posted here and vented instead of dwelling on it. I was able to have a conversation with W later this evening that seemed progressive, to say the least. There's plenty of hope.

You're right that she is resentful, and I have to leave it at that. I don't know why exactly, I can assume all I want, but I can't know. We decided to find someone to talk through our issues with, not to try and fix anything, but to learn from and to make our relationship better for the sake of our child. I told her again that I hoped for more and that I love her, but I accept that she may need to be away from me or without me in order to grow the way she needs to. I will try and document more of the conversation later. It was quite a lot. In the end, I think she was heard and a lot of the resentment melted away.

Thanks for your concern. I know I was a bit dramatic.

[MuddleThrough]

So I have a better idea of what my W was reacting to yesterday afternoon. On Sunday we had a talk about separation and moving in that direction. In it I told her that I accepted that she wanted this and I was going to give it to her, that I don't want to keep her against her will, but I'm not going to initiate something I don't want. We agreed again that she has some goals to accomplish before we move in that direction. In response to my saying that I don't want to keep her prisoner, she said that she can't leave if she wants to because she can't get a divorce because she doesn't have any legal grounds. I asked her what difference a divorce is going to make if I'm making her miserable now? If she's so miserable she can leave divorce or none. Anyway, she asked if I wwould be her friend and if we could find a way to get along while we were still living together. I told her that was what I wanted. So, I wrote something in my journal about how I wwould be friends with her now but I don't want to be her friend in the future, but rather her husband. She read my journal and this set her off. She didn't tell me this time, but I could tell it had been moved.

Anyway, we connected last night and I showed her that I do understand better than she thought where she is. We had a good talk and she agreed that we would work on creating a new relationship as friends now, because the old one as a married couple didn't work, and if it progressed into being lovers, then so be it. I felt a lot of love from her, and I told her I loved her. I asked her if she feels that way about me, even if it's not in love, and she said she hasn't thought about it in a while because she's been so focused on hating me, but yes, she does. She told me that she's been trying to convince me to stop hoping things will work out and even asked me what she can do to do so. I told her that my hope has nothing to do with her, and that I will continue to hope and to love her no matter what she does. She asked if I would do so even after we signed D papers. I told her I wasn't sure. I told her that even though I don't give up hope I accept that she doesn't want to be here and I have to let her go.

In the end, I got a picture of her vision of the future. It's a continuation of our life together, just not "being" together. She wants to stay in the same house, do family stuff together, holidays, parenting. Be good friends. This does sound kind of typical when I read other people's posts. It's like she doesn't want to lose what we have, but wants what's missing. I just don't think she sees the possibility that I do for creating what's missing. She said to me "I just don't understand how you can think we can create those in love feelings again, just because you've read a lot of things in books."