Muddle's Waters III

[MuddleThrough]

Alright, just needed to vent for a moment:

I came home and W was talking about starting a business, using our living room as a consultation space. I find myself getting annoyed, even angry at the idea that she's going to use the benefits of living with me to do this, while she continues to betray me. Yeah, I guess I haven't completely gotten the idea that she's doing this to me out of my head, because occassionally these thoughts inspire anger in me. I can't help thinking that she's so sure that I'll be there for her that she has the security to do whatever she wants to do and she doesn't have to lift a finger for me.

This afternoon I really started feeling like she doesn't deserve me. She doesn't, and especially because she doesn't value me. She treats me like dirt - to some degree because I let her - and she doesn't think twice about it. Is she a bad person for it? Does she feel like she is? I don't know, but I certainly think her antagonistic, self-centered actions should make her feel this way. Is this a way I try and control her? Through guilting her because of how I allow her to treat me, and because I keep coming back and being nice to her I generate some kind of emotional indebtedness? Not something I want, but I'm also tired of her continuing to choose to treat me like crap because she feels like it. She was telling me something and I chimed in and gave her an opinion that tied into hers, and I ended up talking over her for a moment. She got angry that I "wasn't listening to her" even though I repeated what she said, and walked away. I pissed her off, she pissed me off. I'm of course wrong for talking over her, but she always is so nasty.

I need to step out of this habit. I think I worship her in a weird way, even though I see her as she is - flaws and all. Wouldn't any woman want a man like this? Full of admiration. I think she wants someone to lead her, despite the fact that she says otherwise (just at a wedding where this was talked about), but yet she doesn't respect my opinions and leadership. She doesn't buy into my perspective on life and happiness, so how can I lead?

I feel closer and closer to wanting to toss her from the train, to go on with my life and rid myself of the baggage that she is. I work so hard to please her and do for her (at this point I do it because it makes me feel like I'm working to be a good husband and it's the right thing to do) and it never gets recognized. It's humiliating.

I can accept a certain amount of disatisfaction with life as a "that's life" situation. I don't expect to be blissfully happy as a result of my marriage. But I think on some level I'm accepting far LESS than I should. I should have someone equally willing to do for me as I am for her. My W has not been this person, and I think on some level I have resented her for it. I don't know if she can be, and under the present circumstances, I'm pretty sure she doesn't want to try. I know she's giving far more to the OM than she's ever given to me, so she's capable of giving of herself, and damn it, I would do anything to have her give of herself to me the way she has given to OM. Is is worth hanging on to this hope and living through this limbo when things look so damn bleak? The only thing that keeps me going is the ideal that the only way I'm willing to walk away from a marriage with children is after we have exhausted all options to be happy and failed. I don't see ever getting the opportunity to try at this point.

So I'm feeling vindictive. I want to tell W that she can't start a business from our home unless she's willing to be a part of this family. I want to split up and move into separate apartments and have her suffer trying to pay her own bills, working some crappy job instead of having the fun of starting her own business and living off of my salary in the mean time. It's a damn cushy proposition, and I don't think she deserves it. I'm getting to the point where my giving is hurting me, and I want to stop the pain. It's not fair, and yet I perpetuate the cycle.

[grasshopper]

Muddle, it's surprising (or not so much) to hear how similar our sitches/W's are. I often struggle with all the same things you are struggling with now but in the end, I married my W with most of these same traits and somehow I was able to fall in love, be with her for 2+ years and want to marry her despite her somewhat selfish attitudes.

I know in your W and mine, these traits have almost completely taken over but I guess for my part, I am content to build on me while she builds on her parallel to me. There is a lot written about whether things are the cause of each other or merely related in some other way. What I am learning to do is to NOT be the cause or effect of my W's actions, just to exist along side her while this thing goes on, hoping that at some point my growth, time, her growth, etc, will make it possible for us to be more interactive rather than just coexistent.

In terms of you feeling that you have settled for FAR less than you should, well, that's something you really have to evaluate and see if you are just upset at the current sitch, or if you really feel this way long-term.

Like we always say, the LBS and WAS are not really that different in the end, it's just that one figures out that things are not working for them long before the other does, but they both eventually realize that things either need to change or end in order to promote their own happiness.

The nice thing about you, me, and most of the rest of us is that through our process of self-discovery and growth, we are able to maintain a healthy concern for our family and other people, realizing that our striving for personal happiness does not necessitate harming the people we love. That's something that I believe DOES represent the major difference between the LBS and WAS in the end. Keep that in mind.

GH

[MuddleThrough]

I married my W with most of these same traits

No question here, and I think I would do it again. Even my W admits that we did things wrong and we *could* have been much better off had we worked on our relationship all along. According to her it's too late now.

There is a lot written about whether things are the cause of each other or merely related in some other way. What I am learning to do is to NOT be the cause or effect of my W's actions, just to exist along side her while this thing goes on, hoping that at some point my growth, time, her growth, etc, will make it possible for us to be more interactive rather than just coexistent.

This is the approach I have tried to take as well. The trouble is, no matter what I do, nothing seems to change her somewhat abusive behavior. I guess I haven't really changed then, if this is the case. The problem is that for my W to stop this behavior, I need to become the perfect person and this isn't going to happen. I have been thinking that maybe instead of this approach, I need to become more aware of and defend my boundaries when she acts like this. Not fight, but simply point out that she's being nasty and I don't want to be treated like that. I'll tell her either she talks to me better or I'm going to walk away from the conversation. I have always kind of listened to her and not fought back, but I guess this gives her license to continue.

I keep telling myself that time will really be the only thing that can resolve this, but the pressure of do/not doing the right/wrong things during that time and not really getting a clear idea of what defines a right or how to tell if it's having the desired effect is frustrating. I guess that's where I just need to stop and live my life, but the demands of my family (including my wife) don't give me the opportunity to shut this out.

In terms of you feeling that you have settled for FAR less than you should, well, that's something you really have to evaluate and see if you are just upset at the current sitch, or if you really feel this way long-term.

Let me clarify here: I really think my W and I ARE compatable. I really think that she and I can have a really great marriage. I certainly don't think that she, as a person, is less than great. The way she is now committed to acting seems to preclude any growth or fulfillment in the relationship. I don't think that we can have a great relationship if she doesn't decide that she wants to give to me. Maybe she will at some point, but I look at her and see a really immature person that's going to take a long time to get to that point, and even then, I don't know if she'll be able to do that with me. So, right now I'm really settling. If she doesn't begin to contribute to the relationship far more than she used to - I certainly will be settling. It's a pretty stupid thing to be even weighing this out when she's 90% out the door and running fast.

That's something that I believe DOES represent the major difference between the LBS and WAS in the end. Keep that in mind.

There's something interesting that I read recently talking about this. It leads me to believe that what you seem to be attributing to character differences might be association after the fact. The idea was that both people in the marriage were not getting their needs met when the A started. It's likely that the WAS was the first one with the opportunity to have an A, not that their values or morals were weaker. We as LBSs have no idea whether we would have become WASs ourselves had our spouses not beaten us to it.

[ford]

Heya Muddle.
<There's something interesting that I read recently talking about this. It leads me to believe that what you seem to be attributing to character differences might be association after the fact. The idea was that both people in the marriage were not getting their needs met when the A started. It's likely that the WAS was the first one with the opportunity to have an A, not that their values or morals were weaker. We as LBSs have no idea whether we would have become WASs ourselves had our spouses not beaten us to it. >

I think this last thing is horse hockey. I really doubt that a marriage exists where all the needs of both partys are met. when WAS use this to excuse thier affair, I say "Horse Hockey"

Muddle, were all your needs met prior to the bomb? prolly not, did you go pick up and babe, do the nasty, then go beat the wife over the head with it using the excuse "you didn't complete me"? so I think us LBS can take the moral blue ribbon here

Muddle, you're a good guy and don't deserve abusive treatment. when we're down, it's easy to make us feel like since we didn't always help with the laundry and then write a poem for them, it's our fault they lie, cheat and abuse. "Horse Hockey"

[MuddleThrough]

I think this last thing is horse hockey. I really doubt that a marriage exists where all the needs of both partys are met. when WAS use this to excuse thier affair, I say "Horse Hockey"

Muddle, were all your needs met prior to the bomb? prolly not, did you go pick up and babe, do the nasty, then go beat the wife over the head with it using the excuse "you didn't complete me"? so I think us LBS can take the moral blue ribbon here

Ok, I'm not saying that ALL one's needs can be met in a single relationship. I'm saying that it's likely that neither partners' most important needs are being met, therefore, when the opportunity comes along to experience this extreme happiness, the feeling of entitlement to fulfilling those needs arises utilizing the justification of neglect by the spouse. I am not saying it's objectively justified, I'm simply saying that we all, as people, have the ability to choose how we act and circumstances and perspective (both of which are transitory) can influence how decisions are made, and certain decisions can be far more appealing because of this. I think it is a basic human emotional response when your needs are not being met - to have them met however they can be - AND the importance of the neglected needs are elevated to supreme importance, totally out of proportion with all other needs.

I think there are people who are predisposed to tossing aside their values to pursue meeting their needs elsewhere because they have not been honest with themselves about the part they play in their own happiness. This, I think, prevents them from being honest with themselves and allows them to cloud their decisions with ideas like fate or external circumstance controlling them. I think the same person in either happy or unhappy states of mind will make a different decision when faced with this opportunity. I'm not saying that you would have made the same decision a cheater did, I'm saying you COULD have, given the right circumstances. In fact, at the time of the A, I'm not sure I would not have been tempted, or done the same. I wasn't out looking for anything, but neither were any of them, right?

I think what makes us moral and *good* is not that we chose NOT to have an A, but that we are choosing to see the value in the M and in our families. We are choosing to maintain the importance and value of the other person, who we could easily condemn as evil or bad or devalue and find utterly useless. It's making the choice to fight through all of our negative emotions, against the adversity of the situation, act with true integrity (all parts of your being in a symbiotic state) and do what's right, according to our ideals. That's honorable, not some intrinsic ability to withstand temptation that the WAS does not possess.

Muddle, you're a good guy and don't deserve abusive treatment. when we're down, it's easy to make us feel like since we didn't always help with the laundry and then write a poem for them, it's our fault they lie, cheat and abuse. "Horse Hockey"

You're absolutely right. This is something I fight with too. I don't want to take on more than I own, but I also don't want to fool myself into beleiving that I own less of it than I do. So, isn't it better to take on what might not be my issue, struggle with it and improve and then realize that I improved myself and it had no impact on the situation than to leave that stone unturned because of an error in my judgement? Damn right I don't deserve abusive treatment, and it's going to stop. I'm going to find a way to stop it, one way or another. I wish she didn't want to act like she does, and I think on some level she really doesn't. But, right now, and maybe for the rest of her life, she has really poor impulse control. She acts on her feelings far too often and too easily. I will change this dynamic starting with me.

Ford, thanks for your opinion, it really got me thinking. I'm not taking what she feeds me as truth here, rather, I'm trying to look at this phenomenon objectively and see the common human threads. It's the idea the we are so different that causes us see each other as enemies, protecting what makes us different. This isn't conducive to reconciling, is it? In fact, I think it damages our world view to protect and try and own something - it is a way of trying to find value through external sources. The value's there, in everyone - even the people who make bad choices.

[ford]

Muddle

you're a good man. Charlie Brown.

I completely respect your decisions.

the are well thought out.

[grasshopper]

I agree. I don't think even though we now realize that things were not really working for us, that it means if we'd realized it long ago, we'd have had an A. It does mean, however, that instead of fighting for a marriage that didn't work for EITHER of us, we are now able to understand that we need to fight for one that does, one that is different than the old one.

GH

[ford]

GH, I agree.
sometimes I get so caught up in protecting myself, I sorta lose focus on the bigger picture.

you and Muddle are wise

and that ain't "Horse Hockey"

[believing_isaiah43]

The idea was that both people in the marriage were not getting their needs met when the A started. It's likely that the WAS was the first one with the opportunity to have an A, not that their values or morals were weaker. We as LBSs have no idea whether we would have become WASs ourselves had our spouses not beaten us to it.

I offer the other side of ford's argument, b/c I completely and totally agree with this quote. There but for the opportunity (and the grace of God), I would have had an A, secondary to next-to-zero of my needs being met in my M. I was just a SAHM to preschoolers with no opportunity to be validated by another man and fall down the rabbit hole, while H's job had him traveling extensively across the US and working closely with lots of people, many women, including the eventual OW.

Now, ironically, I am back in the workforce and my head is out of the Mommy role and there is potential male attention everywhere. Tempting, that. But I sit and wait on my H, and ultimately the Lord, to move this situation where He would have it be.

[MuddleThrough]

Another day. Not much to say. I saw very little of my W last night, so no real interactions to speak of. She blew me a kiss when she went down to bed though. Mmmm, crumbs.

I think more and more that the only way I can make this situation better is to stop caring so much about it. Detach from the outcome, from my desire to make it work. Put that focus and desire into making each and every moment in my life happy and worth something. Looking for change, or looking to see what my W is doing does nothing for us if she doesn't want it to. If I can be happy and put the effort into finding that happiness in each moment, there will truly be something there for her to look at and admire if and when she turns this way. If not, well, the time hasn't been wasted. Or has it? Am I ignoring things that are in my power to turn this sitch around? Am I passively allowing her to walk out the door and completely push me out of her heart? I've never been so far from her as I am now. How much of this really is my doing?