Maybe that's just a definition thing, running. I'm pretty sure I would put my H's affair starting earlier than he would. He probably thinks it didn't start until they were physically intimate. But there's got to be a lot of ground work to get to that point.
You cannot teach a man anything; you can only help him discover it in himself. Galileo Galilei
Why are you still bringing this stuff up? In the big picture it doesn't matter if it was a Monday or a Friday. Yes, he had an affair. Yes it is over. Is he working to try and rebuild the relationship with you? Is he trying to make ammends? LET IT GO!!! He is with you, his wife, not OW. Can you at least be happy with that? You have the chance to start fresh and leave the past behind in the dust. How many times did you cry over the fact that you thought you were heading for a Divorce? Be thankful that you are no longer in that position. That is exactly why you are supposed to be working on YOU, learning to forgive, moving forward, not being stuck in stagnant waters. IF you want this man to stay home, then stop the nonsense or you will push him away again.
There can be no testimony without a test. I am praying to go through this test and come out the other end with a new and better marriage then before.
Thanks for pointing all of that out to me. I do need to let it go. I think you are absolutely right that I am worrying about something that doesn't really matter. Also, no one is 100% truthful all of the time. There are little "white lies" and sometimes if something is unproductive why worry about it. I also do know my husband often has a terrible memory about stuff like this (like when something occurred and what happened... he remembers science and math while life eludes him).
As far as trying to make amends... I'm not sure about that. Would just being around count for making amends? My husband does say he "loves me cautiously." I wonder if this means he does feel a lot of shame and just can't take any criticism regarding this whole thing.
I understand this can differ from person to person, but what kind of time frame can one expect in working through all of this? My husband left the marriage for 6 months so he wouldn't have to deal with the fallout. I'm certainly not so crazed about the whole thing as I would have been in the early months, but wouldn't this just delay some of the healing? I know that the details hurt, but don't most of us want to know them anyway?
I'm soooo bad. I sent her (OW) another mean email the other day. I told her I was sorry for her husband being married to someone like her. Fortunately this isn't something I've done too much.
I guess the thing I'm grappling with is why neither of these people seemed to feel guilty. How they could do all this without feeling guilty? Even though I keep reading all these books, and they give reasonable answers for this, it's like I still can't understand it. I guess some of this stuff is just hitting me hard right now. I don't know why I'm going here when I was doing so well. Maybe I should talk with my doctor about increasing the antidepressants. Maybe heavy sedation for the next year or so would help....
There is no arriving, ever. It is all a continual becoming.
Lets get one thing clear... It is up to you to make a decision and stick with it. Do you love your Husband? I am going to assume the answer is YES! Do you want him grovelling at your feet begging for your forgiveness for the rest of your life, or do you want him to be able to come to you in HIS time and tell you that he is sorry? It will happen, when he is ready, trust me on this. It can take a good year or more for things to begin to return to normalcy, piecing is harder then anything else. Each time you bring things up, you are NOT building trust, you are tearing down walls.. You keep opening up a scab and not letting it heal properly. The scar will always be there, but how much it shows is up to you and your self control and obsession over the situation. No more contact for you and the OW. Let her be now, she is out of the picture, and if you are harassing her you will be the bad one, I know, I have been there too. Right now your only focus should be on restoration, and peace. Trying to have as much normalcy as possible and not letting the crap of the past get into your head. The details of what happened will crush you right now, because you are NOT ready to hear them at this point. And what is it you want to know? Was she better then you in bed? What lies he told both you and her? Why open up this can of worms? Look, you have what you thought you wanted, he is home. The OW is a nothing, leave her behind. Life is too short to waste on trivial stuff. You don't need anti-depressants, you need to just lets things be, learn how to forgive and work on your marriage.
There can be no testimony without a test. I am praying to go through this test and come out the other end with a new and better marriage then before.
I never answered your question of the other day - re: does my W know and agree with some of the stuff (such as the Mars/Venus stuff).
I thing generally she does. I know that she loved the analogy that I had made during our MC some months back - about Mr. Fixit and Mrs. Home Improvment Committee. And I know for a fact she is much more likely to "hold her tongue" when she wants to provide criticism - especially if it is about something important to me. HOWEVER, I guess I'm not sure how much her "agreement" matters - here's why - again, this is my journey too and I get to choose how I act or re-act. That started with one of the first statements from my personal mission statement to the effect of "I will listen to all that WAW has to say and express". Active listening - takes a lot of practice, but it has helped her feel understood. And secondly - and I find myself REALLY thinking this one through when I am talking to her - but to never - UNLESS directly asked - provide a solution.
So much has changed I think for the better through these interactions. *I* started them - she just seems to be following and it is becoming very natural - as if this is how people should always be interacting if that makes sense.
Next, I agree with B-N-D, you have to start letting it go. I had one blowout about the OM back in May and that has been it. Never brought it up since - I'm not saying it doesn't still bother me or take a minute or two a day to get an icky image out of my mind - however - I needed to let it go or there is no way I could have gotten myself to where I am today.
Lastly - regarding the lying - and I'm trying to remember if I posted to Cat about this - or where. Whatever. Anyway, I was a consumate "truth stretcher or avoider" - all white lies or just forgetfulness, but I can tell you my motivation lay in not wanting to cause disapointment. I know that the years of criticism, as mild as it might have been, made me feel it was "best" to stretch the truth. Short answer is for the time being, it made me feel safer. Obviously, my tune has changed. I'm still forgetful (blonde, can't help it), but I can tell you I don't lie. I'll deal with the consequence because all in all, I am a great person putting on a great effort. AND, WAW has allowed me to feel "safer" WRT my interactions so I get a double benefit.
My suspicion is that your H does not feel safe talking about these things and in his own way, he *might* be trying to *protect* you. He undoubtly is ashamed. What can you do that would make him feel safe? TJ and I created a "Safety" thread in Newcomers some time back - might be worth a read.
Quote: Maybe this is an error on his part, or maybe he's trying to minimize the length of time... I don't know. But what do you do if you realize they are still lying?
Same boat here about when H and OP stopped being intimate. I have good proof of when it STILL was going on event though he says it was over for him. My H truly had his brain short-circuit with the depression and the 3meds he was taking, so maybe he isnt' 100% sure. OK, so let's say he remembers and tells me "ok, it was xyz month" what would that change? it would only fuel my fire of making a detailed timeline of "when he was with her he was doing xyz with me" and have me obsessed more, and ask him even more questions..thus the circle would never be broken.
Let's make piece with that hon, the whole thing A was wrong, 4 or 6mths old, was WRONG, I truly hear you, somedays I too want to have exact dates, but remember, knowing more makes us feel like crap later.
Like when I found the black book yesterday, it answer my other questions, but do you think I feel better now? I don't.
Quote: As far as trying to make amends... I'm not sure about that. Would just being around count for making amends? My husband does say he "loves me cautiously." I wonder if this means he does feel a lot of shame and just can't take any criticism regarding this whole thing.
Sounds about right, they DID feel shame..on the "affair" book it said how the cheater is so guilt ridden...he goes back for more of the OP to block that shame".
Being around is a great step to the BEGINNING of healing the M. Remember hopefloats? her H didn't have the heart/valor to come back, it took a lot from your H and mine to face up how much they screwed up and come back to us, both of our H's had lawyers and all, we both almost got divorced!!! Remember that, we've fought so hard and here we are,back with our H's, something we prayed for hard everyday they were away.
It is the beginning of hard work for both of you, you know that! I also know that despair creeps up and tugs at your heart, I'm having some of that too. But let's remember to look forward hun, God is on our side, all things work for those who love Him, dont' loose faith K?
Be not afraid...I will repay you for the years the locusts have eaten Joel2
30something 2kids survivor of S, MLC, A, D I have peace in my heart, at last.
Thanks everyone for the very much needed kick in the tush! I really needed this.
I've been reading and rereading these responses and have to say they make a lot of sense. I'm going to work on committing them to memory.
I really like the idea that I'm not ready to know about the A now and he's not ready to deal with it either. Maybe someday, at some future time after a lot of healing has occurred, and we're both comfortable with it, we can explore it a little further (perhaps in therapy), but for now we just need to work on building up a friendship and a strong healthy relationship.
I really appreciate your responses. It does make a big difference.
There is no arriving, ever. It is all a continual becoming.
sure, these posts are from when I just found out about PA and was in horrible pain, when I couldn't stop thinking about every detail, most were from my post, and a few other nuggets I found on other threads (hope no one minds that I'm quoting them ):
Quote: Hey cat....it's OK to feel how you do. You just unearthed a lot of stuff. As long as you don't take it out on H or kids, it's OK to feel crazy, like screaming, like hell. I have a suggestion. I have also found some horrific stuff recently, and it was so much easier to deal with since we're separated. Our lives are not together now. I'm not suggesting you separate, but can you perhaps go away for the weekend or something, just to get some space. Right now, you are with H, near the room full of letters/stuff, and just memories. At least a day trip. Your H probably did a LOT of things while he was gone that is hurtful to you now. The hardest thing to remember is that he did it to himself, not to hurt you. Moreover, you will get over this, while H has to live with it and likely screwed himself up more. I suggest you take a look at Pregnant and DBings thread....she has a really good take on the whole thing.....that lives were separate while gone and what he did then was his life. It's tough one to swallow, but it's something that I am beginning to realize might be the thing to think while finding forgiveness. ===================================
I think it's always better to redirect your energy and focus to a beneficial place rather than to try and stop focusing on something that's detrimental. If you need to be reassured that something bad is not happening, because you are allowing yourself to conjure up images of these things, then you are not focusing on positive change that you can bring about. Come up with a way that you can be comfortable directing yourself internally. I think that if you always look for an obstacle that's external to you to blame for not doing what you agreed to it's only an excuse. Don't look for excuses, look for opportunities.
We can praise the little things, or we can ignore them. praise is so much better, and makes us want to do even more. I am not sure, but time helps. And myself deciding I didn't want to live my life having to think about H betrayal, OW, lies and the hurt I felt. I was ready to put it all behind me and begin living my life for me, in the present and not the past.
If H decided he wanted to be with me fine, but if he didn't I would move ahead without him. I had to get away from the hurt, forgive and move on. I was ready to forget this part of my life. Now realize it took 2 yrs post bomb to get to this point. Now H did hear my anger many times as it surfaced. But how many times can you beat a dead horse. One of H fears was that I would never let him forget what he did, would always bring it up and make him feel bad. So I have worked hard never to mention it. =====================
I won't go on and on with this but I am not suprised...no man wants to admit to an affair....they know it is going to open up so much and they can't handle anything....he didn't lie to you in his mind....he lied for you.... Listen to me....you need to relax....you need to stop casting blame....you need to realize that he is back with you and it is going to take time...my H has been back for 6 mos. and still can't say "I love you"....but he is here and we are getting better....it is hard to see as it goes along...it is when I look back that I see how far we have come....
Get control of your emotions....if you can't control them then take a personal time out....let him know why....tell him you feel out of control and don't want to make things worse...he will respect you for this... Also...hug him, kiss him, I will leave the sexual thing to you because I understand the "pity sex" feeling...but don't take away you affection....that is what heals...that is the glue to the relationship....and it isn't just for him...it will help you too...
Let you husband keep his dignity...no more quizing...it will only make you feel bad....him feel bad for making you feel bad...and in the end you both have gained nothing for it....what's done is done...you can't change the past but you can change the future...look to the future....the only time I look back now is to see how far I have come....how far we have come.. You will be fine...today is a new day....embrace it...enjoy it....live it.... And honey...I got the debt thing all over on you...you think 10K is bad....how about 120K!....and 16K of it is on me!!!...even after bankruptcy on his part he will owe the IRS about 30K!!! So count your blessings.
We can only imagine how horrible it was for H's to be talked to like that. It seems that the A overshadows all the past, but I have to rememver there's a LOT I did to get down that path. =====================
He helped OW with bills and other things (gifts, etc)....he said it wasn't really the physical stuff at all, but more that someone appreciated and needed what he gave them and was grateful. Someone that was 'crazy' about him, and just knowing that was really nice for him. Also, that it was a distraction for him from our mess...which is what explains the 'addictive' type of behavior or spouses do when in the A (constantly calling, checking emails, etc) more so than when they were with us. When they fell in love with us, life was balanced and happy and whole, so no need to go overboard with reaching out....but in the A, it's a product of feeling miserable in part of your life and shutting that out, so you're reaching out overly so, to distract yourself, do dull the pain/ugliness of life.
The answer, I put together just recently after his confession and our talks: H admitted that during all this he was in a 'fog' of sorts. Was not himself. He said that he no love for himself, let alone for anyone else (when I asked if he 'fell in love.') and was feeling miserable (about us), guilty (about himself). He was barely keeping it together during the months. Not the strong balanced person he was. So at this low point, he goes OVERboard in indulging in a distraction, self-medication of sorts. Think of it as drinking. When life is good, you enjoy a few drinks, to kick back and relax, to enhance your life. When life is bad, you want to drink heavily to forget.
So, in a way, it's a GOOD sign that H's are less indulgent in US. Means that they are more balanced and well-rounded....esentially more capable of TRUE and LASTING love....because those things are built and given only when you love yourself, are happy and feeling strong. Of course, I understand it, but it still hurts, when I think "geez, you can call OW a million times, but you can't call me until the end of the day b/c you have no time..."
Reading up on your posts. I KNOW how you feel, we all do! I'm piecing too and some days are good and some days are bad, but the one thing I can tell you is that if you don't let go, you will destroy everything that you want so bad. If you want your marriage to survive, you have to let it go! Your H made horrible mistakes and probably will in the future but it sounds like to me he wants to be with YOU - not the ow. Your H, like mine, knew what his consequences would be but he got so caught up at the time it didn't seem to matter. Now, that the cloud lifted, he sees the damage and now he has to live with it. Piecing, IMHO is harder than walking away. You have to be goal oriented. Get through today, then tomorrow, then the next without snooping, loosing your temper, etc. Take one day at a time. Don't look at the big picuture right now, you're not ready for that. Take one day at a time. Get up in the morning with a positive attitude. Tell yourself "I'm happy today" and be happy throughout the day. Then when you go to bed, say to yourself "I made it -tomorrow I will decide to be more compassionate and then do that.
One day at a time. That's what I do and again, sometimes I'm successful, sometimes I'm not, but I pick myself up, set my goal for tomorrow and strive to meet that goal. ========
Please STOP try this excerise. what is the worst thing that you can imagine. I don't want to make things worse, but lets try it on for size. your h was gone. He was with OW in PA, even told her that he wanted to D you and M her. He was with her right up until the 2 of you began reconcilliation and ML. He wanted the best of both worlds. Told her XY&Z. made plans for the future. Even booked a cottage with her for New Years this year.
What does that mean? Cat it means that he did stuff that would hurt for you to know. none of the things matter more than the other honestly. When he left, that was the worst punch that you had to take. All the rest of it is just part of the recipe. I've said this before about my sitch, maybe it will help you. One wrong or another doesn't matter which. they are all wrong. God does not have a sin scale. Once you realize that, you can stop comparing them.
Now that you have the worst of the worst thought out. what's next. He came home, and you are working on things. The stuff that you are looking at, seeking out, torturing yourself with, that is all the past. Reality is that you are working on the future. The here and now is that he is with you. Don't wait to create a great day. God Bless you ,HH ========
Oh, honey. I don't even know what to say to you. I certainly won't lecture about the snooping b/c what's done is done. But don't look at any more of it, Cat. Just don't. I KNOW how hard that is to put feet to. I know how hard it is not to chew on that bone, and just gnaw on the things you already saw/read. I KNOW. Just sittin' here with you on the curb sipping my beer, b/c I am no pro at doing the right thing, but I can hang out here and hurt with you like nobody's business.
Grieve what you need to grieve. Absolutely. But don't throw it in his face in a fit of emotional insanity. Put it elsewhere. Post here. Write in a journal. Talk to your C. PROCESS it first. Don't R talk. Don't A talk. Just sit still and work thru your emotions and get a game plan. Get centered. Get your head together. As much as you can, anyway, when your feet have been amputated out from under you. I know.
Breathe in and out, Cat. It's all I know to do some days, honey. You WILL survive this. This will not consume you and you will be able to breathe without that elephant foot on your chest. I don't know when, but you will. Here is my favorite new verse from the Message bible :"So here's what I think: The best thing you can do right now is to finish what you started last year and not let those good intentions grow stale. Your heart's been in the right place all along. You've got what it takes to finish it up, so go to it. Once the commitment is clear, you do what you can, not what you can't. The heart regulates the hands." 2 Corinthians 8:10
Forget the former things; do not dwell on the past. See, I am doing a new thing! Is 43:18-19 If it seems slow in coming, wait. It's on its way. It will come right on time. Hab 2:3
These others are for when I despair that we aren't the loving couple I want us to be, when I don't think he's going to love me again and when I just plain loose hope in my situation and want more than my H can give me now:
Quote: Nothing dramatic, nothing angry....just done out of peace and respect. The more I let him go and showed him unconditional love the more he would come closer to me. he even told me later when I did this it drew him closer to me " cause it felt like I believed in him!"
I think you need to give him alot of space and allow yourself to heL CAUSE YOU HAVE A HARD PART TO GO THRU IF HE TRULY WNATS TO RECONCILE. aND DO NOT RUSH ANYTHING, YOU WANT HIM YOU WANT HIM TO GROW. NOT FORCE HIM TOO.
JOKERMAN WOULD TELL ME NOT TO PUSH AT ALL CAUSE HE WOULD BE MORE DRAWN TO WANT TO BE A PART OF THE ow. I loved the advice he gave me and I will tell you that sometimes I thought well me??? I do not push but upon further examination of myself I realized as humble as I am I could let go more and get thru the fear and soothe myself not expect him to fix my PAIN>
A month ago he would have not been as calm or sweet about this subject. It will be a BATTLE honey but if this is what you really want then prepare yourself. you will need lots of strength, it tests your love for yourself to go thru this. I knew that i had to be strong to get thru this and not let my emotions rule me. Be his safe place to land and by that I do not mean be a doormat, be strong be yourself but do not cause any drama be calm. I feel as though I was rambling a bit but I hope you get some good out of waht I have sadi to you. I care alot BOUT YOU AND WISH YOU ALL THE BEST BUT REMEBER THAT IT WIL TAKE TIME. i STILL LOOK AT MY h AND WANT TO CRY CAUSE i CANNO T BELIEVE i MADE IT THRU AND HELD ON WHEN i FELT LIKE HE WAS KILLING ME WHILE ALIVE AND i HELD ON AND STAYED STRONG AND NEVER GAVE UP AND MOST OF ALL DID NOT SCREAM, SHOW ANGER OR BE MENA TO HIM. I WAS HUMBLE AND I WAS WHO GOD WOULD LIKE FOR ME TO BE.
I WAS ACTING IN A WAY THAT WOULD MAKE GOD HIMSELF PROUD OF ME. And I would remind myself when I felt my temper coming ON " WILL WHAT I AM ABOUT TO DO HELP ME REACH MY GOAL? IF NOT THEN DO NOT SAY IT OR DO IT. ----
Love yourself enough to know that you are beautiful, worthwhile, precious, caring,loving, important, sexy, loved, valued and amazing .. .... carry with you a love for yourself that helps you shine even when the world seems out to get you, be the beautiful Woman that is there underneath all the fear, underneath all the bull sh*t that has been done to you, and ABOVE someone who would ever allow herself to get involved with YOUR husband to begin with. You are better than that do not let her rob you of your happiness. Long and short of it love yourself and show him love like he never hurt you.
...be the fun, smiling person you used to be before he took your heart out and hung it to dry. I always felt as though my h tied me to the back of his truck and forgot to look back and then when he finally untied me,, I had a lot of healing to do...
......... you can do this kepp coming here for support. Love x, love and love some more, allow him to grow and become the man he needs to be for you and most of all for himself.
I can go to bed at nite knowing I did everything in my Power to be the beautiful person I am and to rise above their Sh*t and still live in THE ....light. I remained faithful and worked towards my miracle. I know you can do this too. ..... for you have integrity too. ------------
You are breeding negativity. STOP IT. Can you just allow yourself to dare to think something GOOD about your husband? Of course the man is not "happy"! He is thinking of how long it's going to take to get back into your good graces, how long until you stop expecting the worst from him, how long until you have faith that he will do something other than screw up, how long til you will really love him again and the two of you can truly be a healed family. HOW can he EVER believe in HIMSELF when NO ONE BELIEVES IN HIM??
It's your move. The man needs a wife that is going to stand behind him and lift him up when the rest of the world pisses on him. A wife that believes in him although at times he doubts himself. He needs someone to give him a chance. Your daughters need someone to give Daddy a chance. If he screws it up, you have the option of filing for divorce and I won't even bat an eye if you do. I will understand. But as sure as WE all screw up and Jesus forgives US, we need to forgive those that hurt us and need another chance. It's up to you. Fear or faith? Which one are you gonna feed tonight? I don't give a rat's ass about history or odds or statistics. WHAT IF WHATEVER HAPPENS IS SOLELY DETERMINED BY YOUR ACTIONS AND ATTITUDES? What if.....? -----------------
Whatever proves to be the hardest thing for you to do is precisely what you HAVE to do. If it's bringing up OP, then you have to stop. You just have to stop it. You're giving her too much power. SHE'S NOTHING.
Be not afraid...I will repay you for the years the locusts have eaten Joel2
30something 2kids survivor of S, MLC, A, D I have peace in my heart, at last.
):