Glad to hear your doing so well with yourself. Your words of wisdom and inspiration have been a great help to me and many others. Seems I have a lot of growth to do to catch up with you. I hope one day I'm there.
I feel like I've been slapped out of a slumber and am only now starting to realize what life is supposed to be about. Kinda like at the beginning of Joe vs the Volcano when he was in the office and looked like a zombie just going through the routine motions of his day. That's the way I was. I will be that way no more.
I'm sure you've read some interesting books. I see people recommend books all the time on here. I wish they were all in one place. I always mean to go back and write down the book title but lose track of where it was. I wish they were all in one place. Any you care to recommend?
I'm sure you've read some interesting books. I see people recommend books all the time on here. I wish they were all in one place. I always mean to go back and write down the book title but lose track of where it was. I wish they were all in one place. Any you care to recommend?
From the previous topic, talking about the 'in love' crap that the WAS's think is their salvation
Quote: This happens between two people who are emotionally immature and have learned to get their needs fulfilled by others rather than themselves.
After they get together and decided it is 'true love' they proceeded to live in the cloud of 'in love' and make plans to 'be together' like some tragic love story. They ignored their family, kids, jobs all so they can be in pursuit of this long distance romance.
Real people do not fall 'in love' over the phone or through E-mail. All there is is a fantasy person - the real person is someone else entirely.
My W was on the phone or IM'ing 'Mr Wonderful' all the time. Unfortunatly he was banging his girlfriend (who he told W he left - for her) and of course, he never came to see HER but got the benefit of her paying to fly to see HIM. Get the picture?
I think you are being naiive in this case, and certainly are not speaking from a position of experience. There are many of us who have experience in this kind of behavior and it IS a bad thing. There ARE men (and women) who get their emotional 'fix' from others like this. The sad part is that Striker believes he feels what he feels, yet he goes from woman to woman trying to fill that empty spot inside.
In Cherishhers W's case, and HopefulHusband's W and several others, they went through years of being married but hiding the deficit that was inside them.
Once the LBS can't 'carry them' emotionally, maybe because the LBS is going through their own crisis, the WAS gets to the point to where they need that hole filled. Since they don't know how to do it, they were living off the positive energy of the LBS, they run to the first person who says 'I love you' or shows any interest.
The sad part is that the OM in these cases is just as screwed up as they are. You don't "fall in love" over the phone or through E-mail. What you have is a fantasy.
Sure, they get together. like CH's W ran off to see Striver, but the time they spend is ONLY 'good times'. They have no history, they have no real problems - yet.
All of this kind of activity is a reflection on their emotional immaturity and SELFISHNESS.
It's all about her. After all, she 'deserves' to be happy, right? Never mind that she is only unhappy because of her choices. She is only unhappy because when the going got tough in the marriage, she bailed. These kind of women are only happy as long as they are 'getting' and the LBS is 'giving'.
When they don't receive any more, when the LBS has a down turn in their life and can't keep giving and carrying them both, they start looking for that 'fix' somewhere else.
How many of us on this board (men and women alike) married someone who was just a time bomb waiting to go off?
Think about it. From the beginning of your relationship, was you WAS getting their 'up' and 'positive' experiences from you? Were you the one who made life fun? When they were down, did YOU cheer them up all the time? When YOU were down did THEY get down and need YOU to reassure THEM, instead of THEM lifting YOU up?
Something to think about. One thing for sure, if any of you have this kind of experience you may want to remember that you can NOT go forward with your WAS in a 'new' marriage UNLESS they are actively working on this part of themselves.
Otherwise, you'll just repeat this experience because you are not married to a 'whole' person.
The Shrink that XW and I were seeing prior to the bomb (I kept going on my own- she said SHE DIDN'T NEED TO GO ANYMORE ON HER OWN!) anyway he said she was emotionally immature and acting like an adolescent....
The first C I took my D15 to see last summer met w/ W and later told me that it seemed like there was a PEER relationship w/ D instead of a Parent/Child relationship.
Then the C daughter was seeing this past winter met w/ just W and D.... Told me later that she was very disturbed that W seemed to be very immature and she felt like she was sitting in a room w/ TWO teenage girls. Even went so far as to call W "emotionally stunted"!
But hey, it's all my fault! All b/c I had an A in 1989, said it was an EA and denied it was a PA.
XW STILL doesn't want to acknowledge the role her dismissiveness and trivialization of my concerns played in that coming to be.
And now she is DONE. I have found a great deal of comfort in renewing my faith, in knowing I have NOT fallen into Satan's trap of anger, in remaining open to reconciliation and in TRYING not to pressure her. So many times I have come to this board and read of people restraining themselves and NOT saying/doing something. I hope I can be as successful.
Way back when I tried to involve her in activities... the extent of her suggestions for something to go do was going to the movies... Yeah, right, I sit in a dark room 5 days a week and on my day off when it's a stunningly beautiful day outside I want to .... go to the movies??? HUH? So often I hear about wives that can't get their husbands to do anything w/ them. What about the reverse?
This will be rather long and somewhat of a journal entry so feel free to skip over it. I just wanted to comment in more depth on Frank’s post I lifted and placed above using my M as background.
----------------------------------------- It's all about her. After all, she 'deserves' to be happy, right? Never mind that she is only unhappy because of her choices. She is only unhappy because when the going got tough in the marriage, she bailed. These kind of women are only happy as long as they are 'getting' and the LBS is 'giving'.
When they don't receive any more, when the LBS has a down turn in their life and can't keep giving and carrying them both, they start looking for that 'fix' somewhere else.
How many of us on this board (men and women alike) married someone who was just a time bomb waiting to go off? ------------------------------------------
At first the concept of “giver” and “taker” seemed harsh but after nine months I am not so sure. I would call it a leader-follower or even a parent-child dynamic. I lead and she followed.
Before we were married, W relied on her father to do many things. My FIL is a great guy and is strong, steady, and secure. He helped her when the going was rough in college, he helped her find a house and move, he helped her buy furniture and her car, he helped do her taxes, he gave her advice. He was her security blanket.
Then I came along and I assumed that role; a role I could not hope to fill long term. I should have known better.
The first half of our marriage was good. But I was expected to lead: I decorated the house, I chose what we ate each night, I picked out her car, I did the finances and the taxes, I fixed the house; she wanted little input on decisions. What color should we paint a room? She would go pick out a dozen paint chips and asked me to decide, and then I was expected to paint.
As time went on I began to resent doing all the work. I desired a real partner – not being a “daddy” to my W. I was always second guessing my decisions – were they making her happy? Then two things happened in parallel later in the M:
1) Children came: Here the parent-child dynamic shifted. Now she was the parent and just as she expected me to run the household ship with little input she expected to run the children ship without any input. I resented that b/c I was the father but I let her run with it. The M took last place – the kids became the “fix” Frank talks about above. I felt like the babysitter. We argued about how to raise our kids – but she did what she wanted. She became the rebellious teenager who wants to pick and choose her responsibilities with “daddy” butting out.
2) I had that down turn in my life and could not keep giving and carrying us both: the pressure of the children, job turn down, the death of a close friend to cancer, my mother moving here and having to undergo two operations. I slipped into depression and I began to increase my drinking to cope.
Did she help me? No. I got the blame for everything. I was no longer her “daddy”. Her rock was gone – I was no longer the strong, steady, and secure leader she needed. I was all too human.
Then the roof leaked: It started slowly – a skylight in the family room. I was so depressed I did not care. She was on to me all the time about it. Why did she not call a roofer to fix it? It got steadily worse and looking back it was a metaphor for our failing M. Instead of picking up the phone book and helping me, she gave me a child’s book where the dad ignored a leak and the house filled with water. The water rose until the dad, still reading his newspaper in his easy chair, was floating to the ceiling. The family wore scuba gear. The house finally exploded.
I laughed at the time, blinded by depression to the fact that she was telling me that I was failing as her father figure. I was failing the family. I was to blame while she did not lift a finger to help me. The captain of the ship was ill – but the first mate did not step in to help. Instead she headed for the lifeboat to abandon ship.
Yes Frank, your post is on the money. How many here say “When we split up she/he will learn what life is like without me”. As if they could not survive without us. Only a person in a leader-follower relationship would state such a thing – I read it all the time across this BB so it is a thread; I said it myself.
It is also ironic that while she expected me to lead and handle everything except the children, it is she who now calls me the great controller and great manipulator. Again, like a teenager trying to get her way – she resents the parent’s control but at the same time looks to the parent for security. She firmly believes that it was SHE who held the M together. In the end that was true – but she was too busy launching the lifeboat to help the sick captain get back on track.
All this brings me to your following quote:
------------------------------------------ One thing for sure, if any of you have this kind of experience you may want to remember that you can NOT go forward with your WAS in a 'new' marriage UNLESS they are actively working on this part of themselves. Otherwise, you'll just repeat this experience because you are not married to a 'whole' person. ------------------------------------------
That is why D is looking so good. I cannot be her “daddy” any longer. She has been dependent for 43 years and it would be difficult to change. Worse, she is not aware that any change is needed, that she is not a “whole” person. Yes, I still love her and there are the kids. But I cannot fill her expectations. Now I get the kids to myself for quality time I never had before; quality time she never let me have b/c the kids were “hers”. But this will hurt everyone involved – that is the sad part.
I hope that some day she will grow up but I doubt it. Most likely I will be replaced (or have already been replaced) by another father figure. She did call a roofer and got the leak fixed – four months after I moved out. Too, too late. Why did she not help us sooner?
Quote: At first the concept of “giver” and “taker” seemed harsh but after nine months I am not so sure. I would call it a leader-follower or even a parent-child dynamic. I lead and she followed.
Hi Frank, I just wanted to add one thing. And this is from a man’s point of view but it needs to be said. Women like men who are strong, confident, take charge and make decisions. Being “in control” of their lives makes a man very attractive. Few women like men who are indecisive or doubtful of their abilities. Women like leaders.
Is that sexist ladies? I hope not, b/c men like women who are secure in themselves and who share as an equal partner. Men like women who are self-confident enough to allow us to lead knowing that you are there to help us should we stumble or fall. Knowing you will provide the input necessary to help make good decisions.
That is very different than the parent-child relationship I discuss above. Totally dependent women cause us to try to live up to an ideal we can never achieve. Dependent women are not self-confident – just the opposite. And they are not there to pick us up off the floor, b/c they do not know how to – and believe me there is not a man on this earth who has not had his nose in contact with the ground many times. And low self-esteem means running away – taking the easy way out – and then blaming everyone but themselves.
Thanks for the post Frank. It makes much sense to me.
Sure, all those things you describe about men are true, but I also see strength in a man who knows where his weakness is and isn't afraid to admit it, to ask his equal sharing woman partner for help and support. In the right way, showing weakness makes a strong man.
Overall I don't think there is a set pattern for men or women. There are similarities in genders, but I think it is the two individuals and the dynamics that makes each relationship. I see friends and their H's that do everything for the wife, to the point she can't help herself do it. I think wow, how nice to be so pampered, how lucky! Before that thought is all the way out, I think no way would I want to be stuck having someone do everything for me and not having the ability to do for myself. It wouldn't seem right to be that dependent, at least not in my world.
Sometimes we just get tired of the roles we have, the roles we took on and created or the roles we have now because of a WAS. Bummer, can't we just ask for a script rewrite instead of replacement characters?
Live your life while you are still living. Riding the trail less traveled.
Quote: Overall I don't think there is a set pattern for men or women. There are similarities in genders, but I think it is the two individuals and the dynamics that makes each relationship.
Agreed. I want to state to everyone that THIS thread / discussion is focusing on the 'codependent' dyanmic we've been describing.
Not meant to make everyone think that THEIR sitch is like MY sitch was or others like us. However, for many of us there is a common pattern to how we all got here.
We fell in love with women or men who were happy, fun and loving. What we didn't see (and they didn't see either) was that neither them, or us, were prepared to deal with a time when WE weren't able to be 'the leader' of the relationship.
We had always been the leader, the person to pick the other one up when we were down, the one who thought up all the fun stuff to do. We filled that empty space inside them, not because we HAD to but because we simply existed, and loved them with all our hearts.
When we couldn't carry our own emotional weight - their empty spots got empty again. Our spots that WE kept filled started to empty too. And neither of us were able to 'step up to the plate' and pull the other out of the hole.
WE needed them like never before, but they COULD NOT support us because they DID NOT KNOW HOW.
Sure, they loved us to death. But as time went on the space we were filling for them - out of our love for them - got more and more empty. OUR place got empty too. We needed them badly then but it wasn't going to happen.
Why? Well I can only speak for my sitch of course. In my case my W was sexually abused as a child. Her parents didn't 'clue in' that it was happening for TWO YEARS. Even though the signs were all there. They were morons. She was 12 years old. And we're talking rape by a 14 year old who was a BABYSITTER.
It wasn't until 2 years AFTER it ended that she felt 'safe' enough to tell them directly what had happend and other than some 'anger', not a F*ing thing was done. Where was her father (A$$hole)
So, she spent the major part of high school as the class 'partyer'. Sometimes she was so stoned she doesn't remember who she slept with.
Why?
In counseling it became clear that it was her way of controlling men, of controlling her sexuality. She was abused by one 'male' and her father, her dominant male, failed to protect her. So her only way to 'be in control' was to act out sexually and be the one controlling the sexual experiences.
In our marriage she was faithful for 15 years. For her, that was a record. But what really went wrong with us?
Well, the simple answer is that she 'lost her voice' when she was younger, and I didn't realize it. Neither did she.
She had decided that she could NOT 'talk back' or 'be assertive' to her HUSBAND. Why? Because she could not do it with her FATHER, with her ABUSER, or with any male.
So when I was in my sh*t, I did a lot of things that she took as hurtful. I didn't think they were but she did and she NEVER said anything to me. But the real issue was that she NEVER HELPED ME when I was way way down emotionally. In fact, when I was down SHE was down and she needed ME to reassure her all the time. Hell, I was in the crapper and I didn't believe that _I_ was going to be alright yet I still did my best to reassure HER that we'd be fine.
So, over time, she lost faith in me. In reality it was because she never had faith in herself. She never knew how to be a partner in a real relationship.
We have been to lot's of counseling and you all know (well those who follow my rambling threads anyway) that we have gotten back together and it's going to be all right.
In the counseling we both learned that she COULD NOT help me when I was feeling down. Because she had no voice. She could only watch me suffer, watch me hurt and maybe yell at me when the pain got bad enough for her. I needed a friend to basically kick my a$$ and get me past the doubts I had. She WANTED to but she COULD NOT. She had lost her voice.
SHE COULD NOT DO IT. That's the ONE point I want to make as we discuss this unbalanced, codependent relationship. She loved me to death. She thought I was the man of her dreams. She WANTED to 'fix me'. She did. Her childhood issues prevented her from doing that. Nothing more. She LOVED me. It never stopped. She just gave up and needed a 'fix' to fill the hole.
And, because she really really needed ME to carry her, when I couldn't she was slowly getting emptyer and emptyer.
I used to resent her for not 'helping me' and then for 'running off with another man' when she decided she was so unhappy she couldn't stay. Her affair was incredibly painful and even she says that she knows that her saying 'I told you I wanted a divorce' doesn't make it hurt any less.
It was only because SHE came tounderstand that I was the best man she had ever met. Because I had never given up on her, on us. Even though I was willing to totally let her go, to let her find somoene else to love if that was what she needed.
She and I now have a much greater understanding of each other. I know that I MUST take the time to really listen to her words, and to understand what she is really needing from me. SHE knows that even if she tells me things she thinks will make me mad that I WILL NOT LEAVE HER.
That was part of the issue. She was afraid that if she used her 'voice' I would leave her. Now she knows that I won't. She also knows that even if I DID leave, she would be all right. But I won't leave.
But more than that, she knows that she SHOULD tell me things that she thinks I don't want to hear. Get it? Talk about things that are uncomfortable. In your marriage you do NOT want to 'be politically correct' or 'suffer' so as not to hurt your partners feelings. Every time YOU absorb some hurt, it's a negative entry into your 'love bucket'.
I know I'm rambling, and I hope my experiences trigger some ideas and emotions in your own sitch's. It all comes down to this:
We were not whole people in ur old relationship.
we loved each other as best we could.
Because of WHO WE ARE we are the best possible fit for each othe IF WE LEARN THESE TRUTHS. Trust me, I know.
As the LBS, we are the ones who have been educating ourselves. We now understand how we both got here. It's our job to be patient and do the best we can to support the WAS as they go on their journey, learning the truths we have learned.
Many of us came from imbalanced relationships. Because WE know the truth, WE will never let that happen to us again. If our spouses see that also, together we can build an incredible life together. We need to give them time.
I'm only a 'success' at 'db-ing' because my W was able to look at herself, and see that what she was doing was really an old pattern. It was only hurting herself. The OM was just as confused and messed up as she was.
And she knew, inside, that she was really just running.
I'm pretty lucky she saw that. I was also very very patient.
Well, the simple answer is that she 'lost her voice' when she was younger, and I didn't realize it. Neither did she.
This happened to me as a child too and she sounds like me... I always refer to it as not making a peep and just going along with things even when I was being terribly hurt ( by H and others in my life)..
I have since learned that it ok to be heard and to love and to lift up my H when he needs it,, he needed me for so long and I didnt even know who or where "ME" was...
This makes more sense to me now after reading your post.. and then he cheated on me more than once so my voice turned evn more silent...until I felt invisible...
SHE knows that even if she tells me things she thinks will make me mad that I WILL NOT LEAVE HER.
OMG I felt like this sooooo much,, for a long time. I would have panic attacks in the last few years after his confirmed 1st affair that every time he left especially when angry... I really and truly felt he would never come home and I never understood why,, the FEAR was paralyzing....
thank you soooooooooooooooo much for being so honest and your wonderful post.. I learned alot..this has helped me tremendously to forgive myself even more for feeling like this in the past ,, I used to feel like I was just plain crazy...
God bless...
