Personally, I think this approach for Cobra and his W is probably the way to go for a harmonious household....but like you said, not necessarily a happy one.
I also agree with you (and this does worry me for the kids) that the example the kids are seeing isn't a good one as far as fostering their emotional IQ. I guess I think about your situation Cobra...and I can't help but think of the parental/husband & wife role models I had in comparison to my H's role models. My parents were loving outwardly, so I learned how to express myself in a loving manner in a loving R. My H's parents were not outwardly expressive, even though they did/do love each other, therefore....my H never truly outwardly expressed his emotions towards me (until I made an issue of it and he began to learn how to do it.)
Cobra...I'm sure I don't need to repeat this, but kids NEED to see loving parents as role-models, that's how they learn what loving behavior is between spouses. Otherwise you run the risk of raising children into adults that aren't able to express loving feelings towards their spouse, because they haven't learned how. So, how do you plan to address that the way your M stands...especially if it at the best remains mutually respectful?
I'm honestly just curious how you plan to circumvent that.
Quote: I really, honestly think that your problems are coming in because you somehow both think you have an R. You don't. You just live in the same house and have the same children. Quit treating it and expecting anything more from it, and I think you will see your power issues begin to dissolve.
I think this is exactly correct. You two are trying to make your R into something it is not. And that is the root of the huge tension that escalates into fights and blow-ups. When people love each other, they are motivated to please each other. Y'all don't have any reason to please each other. You clearly are not in love, and you clearly have NO respect for each other. Why pretend that you do? That only makes each of you feel like sh!t and take it out on the other.
If, however, you look at this as a cordial, civil, helpful, respectful partnership for the purpose of raising your children, AND you make it a rule that you will treat each other with as much kindness as you would a perfect stranger, AND stop expecting your partner to behave like someone who's in love with you... THEN you might really have something workable. You certainly can enjoy having sex. The best sexual relationship I ever was in was for 22 years off and on with a man I was never in love with, but whom I was very fond of. In some way's it's free-er to be with someone sexually when you're NOT in love-- it can just be fun. You don't pile more baggage on it than it can bear.
It could be that if y'all can make a go of this sort of R, you might surprise each other by someday actually falling in love... There's no danger of that now because you only seem to show each other your worst sides.
I think that this series of posts has finally brought us around to the most useful discussion of Cobra's sitch yet. I think Corri's post is spot on.
Frankly Cobra, what has concerned me the most about your posts for a very long time is your concentration on your wifes FOO and the dynamics of your R when you state openly that there was and is "no love" between you and that you don't really seem to think that love can grow between you that you are only trying to figure out how to live semi-harmoniously, raise your kids and have a reasonable sex life. Frankly, in a companionate marriage that is not based on love your W's FOO and concerns about "the relationship" have no place. The only area that bears discussion is where your lives intersect - the kids, the bills, your home, and working out some arrangement around sex (whether inside or outside the M). If you would quit dissecting her and her motives maybe you could get to the place where you could reach agreement on money, her piles of crap in the house, issues with the kids, issues with sex etc... Her motives are immaterial - this is a business negotiation. If she knows it and you know it then stick to the first rule of business - "it isn't personal." I don't know if you can live like that. I think that the reason you are so stuck on the FOO stuff and keep studying R dynamics is because, in your heart you want there to be more. If you do, maybe you should consider co-parenting and finding your happiness elsewhere.
I'm not trying to be mean or to condescend. Just as much as you are suffering in this R, your W is too. You need to be looking for ways to end the suffering and it seems the classic idea of M isn't going to be the way to go.
Not trying to make this about "me," but I just have to say that this latest series of posts, although they may be right, make me very sad. I'm sad for Cobra, for his wife, and for his kids. And sad for myself, my wife, and my kids,too.
"Companionate marriage"? Geeze, I guess I need to Google it.
I agree HD, the implications are sad. But I was wondering, why do you all suppose Cobra would be trying to turn his R/M into something it isn't, given the way he states he feels about his wife and her about him?
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
Cobra's sitch makes me sad too. But I do agree with Corrie, a business approach to this M is probably best....at least for now. At least this way, if they can agree to treat each other with at least the minimum kindness, consideration and respect you would a stranger or business acquaintance.....they might have something to eventually build on. There is a chance IMHO that if they can do this, and maintain this behavior.....some tensions might begin to melt away....maybe they won't though. However if they do then some respect might build, then trust can build off of that...then who knows? The worst they will have is a mutually civil household....hopefully.
I do find it sad though, I can't personally imagine being married to someone I didn't love.
You are quite right in that the lack of compassion is a major problem in my M. If I were to look at this as a business arrangement, I think things could be better on some levels, but I do not want that kind or relationship. I want a caring, intimate marriage. I also think my wife wants the same. I do not think the problem lies in our objectives, but in the baggage we each bring to the relationship. In all due respect to each of you, I think what you are recommending is a cop out. I do not say that in an insulting fashion, but isn’t it so much easier to say, just give up, D, separate, whatever.
Maybe that would be better than where we are now, but I do not think it is ideal. And I am not convinced the ideal is so elusive that I should give up. The progress we have made has been VERY slow, at least IMO (my W might think otherwise). But there have been a mountain of issues to work through and we have laid many of them to rest. Just because there are many more to deal with does not mean we should stop.
BUT, it also means that the traditional way of dealing with relationships – simply working on yourself and waiting for the other to see what they cannot see – can be an exercise in futility. There has to be another way. Since I do not think the passive approach works, I apply some pressure, I turn up the heat on the crucible. I do not think that is wrong. It can be painful. It can raise doubts, bring each of us to question the future, but the purpose is to sift out that which is truly important.
My W is slowly beginning to sift through those priorities. So am I. If I were to look back on the past 3 years and not be able to see any movement, then I would agree with what you all are saying. But I do see change. So I have to believe further change can yet come. What I do not know is whether the pace of that change will increase or slow down, and whether enough changes can be made to salvage the marriage.
To answer concerns over the kids – it comes down to balancing benefits of the marriage versus costs of the fighting. I struggle with this dynamic all the time and constantly wonder where that balance point lies. So far I am not convinced that things are so bad that D would be an improvement. I understand the issue of emotional IQ but I think underlying this is the bigger issue of anger and trying to avoid stress, blame, guilt, maintaining a healthy self image, self confidence, etc. They will need counseling when they get older. Kids in “happy” homes need their own counseling too.
I am not sure about W being a better mother if she were on her own. I don’t trust her ability to handle high stress levels, and that is what I think she would feel as a single parent, even if she only had the kids half the time. Of course this is just speculation on my part, but stress is a major problem for her that she dumps on the kids. Being around her, I tend to react to this. That is my part to work on, but I don’t intend to work on it by learning to put up with her crap, but by learning to not react AS she learns to stop her reactions.
Right now, she is addressing this by immersing herself in her work and essentially withdrawing from the family. The kids sense this (especially S9) and get irritated with her. But that is her MO, run rather than address problems head on and work toward a solution.
For sleeping arrangements, we are actually halfway toward what Corri suggests already. W has not slept in our bed in few years now. Her excuse is that I snore too loudly and that the mattress we had (a soft-sided waterbed) was too “lumpy” (I still can’t figure out how you get “lumps” in a waterbed). We got some other twin mattresses which I put on our bed to resolve the “lumpiness” issue. She now claims the box foundation must be uneven. Anyway, she has been sleeping upstairs in one of the kids rooms (usually S9’s room) for the past few years. This isn’t all so bad since I have the bed to myself and sleep quite well. As long as I can get regular sex, I can live with this. But it is not true companionship.
I want you to know that I'm not saying to take this approach in order for you to give up. I honestly believe that if you can take some really big steps back (perhaps to give you two some breathing room)....and agree to behave with this type of minimal civility towards each other....it could begin to give you the foundation you need to build the R you want. I don't believe you can build the R you want....without that foundation.
So while I can see why you would say it's a cop-out, it's really not. It can be a way to put down that foundation you two never had. It depends upon how you choose to look at it. Sometimes you have to completely deconstruct something in order to rebuild it properly. You've already made some progress within your M as you've said....that progress shouldn't go away if you choose to take a different approach should it?
I don't think it is a cop out but rather an accurate reflection of where you are. AND, what you seem to think is "clean pain" a'la the crucible approach seems the opposite to most of us. There is pain and conflict that is unhealthy, tears down the relationship and the individuals and there is positive pain that results in growth. We don't live your life but I would suggest that you honestly evaluate whether you "turn up" the heat on Mrs. Cobra for her, for your M or for your own need to punish her, be right or gain control. Evaluate whether the kind of conflicts you engage in really lead to "differentiation" or to estrangement. There is a difference. If you do want intimacy, kindness and generosity in your M, and I believe you do, and you believe that Mrs. C wants it too then be the first to model it and refuse to accept otherwise from her.
I can see how you two are at such odds over the kids and I don't think you can fix that until you have mutual respect. You are right. All kids will have issues in life - regardless. We all do our best to minimize those then pray or cross our fingers that everything turns out ok.
Quote: I do not want that kind or relationship. I want a caring, intimate marriage.
To quote my late H: "The people in hell want ice water."
You cannot "make" a loving intimate relationship happen with a woman who annoys the crap out of you and whom you neither love nor respect.
However a period of treating her with respect, refraining from insults, refraining from arguing MIGHT engender enough affection to make life very pleasant.
What you're doing now is not working. Do something DIFFERENT. Do something that has a chance of working.
