Something odd happen to that last post... I'll try again.
Martelo,
With all the anger and frustration you have do you think that you would be able to right now this very second engage in passionate open hearted intimate sex with your wife if she was aproached you right now?
I was pretty ticked off the other night. I’m mostly over it now. Perhaps that is a problem in that my FOO has too much of this fighting, then getting over it the next day. At any rate, I’m not wound up right now.
W is another matter. She has a hard time getting past her anger and she is probably still mad. (Last night I parked behind her in the driveway. Usually she is behind me. This apparently ticked her off as she was leaving to work since instead of parking my car on the street, she parked it one house down and up the side street a little, then left the door wide open on the street side. I came out to go to work to find this.)
As far as sex goes, it has never been me who has had a problem pushing for more intimacy. I had that at one time long ago, I remember it, and I would like to get there again. W does not have sexual hangups that I can tell, but she does have problems become open and vulnerable, so she keeps her walls up at all times. This means she does not like to be completely naked in bed (she is self conscious about her belly fat) and does not like to kiss. We can have normal sex and I make do with that.
So I think I could probably manage sex with her right now, but “passionate open hearted intimate sex” is not even on my radar screen at the moment.
What are you willing to confront in yourself what are you willing to change in your life to get what you want?
I’ve confronted within myself everything I can think of to confront. I’ve listened to the counselor and tried to make all the changes she recommended. The only thing I could do more of is to further detach and control the reactivity. But I am not convinced doing so will move the marriage along. It never worked before.
I understand your reluctance to give your wife slack and the fear that if you don’t push forward nothing will get done. I know that your kids do TKD and I am unsure if you practice. I’ve done a few martial arts and here are a few things that I have learned from martial arts. “Face the fire” when someone is trying to kick you in the head, turning away is the worst thing you can do. Getting overheated and angry with you opponent gives the advantage to them, they are making you react they are controlling you. Engagement while exercising self-control is a pretty good mental framework to spar from. What would you tell your kids if they constantly lost their cool while sparing?
EDIT let me add a quote here:
"I also call it 'holding on to yourself'," says Schnarch, "and it comprises a four-pronged tool: the art of holding to your values in the face of opposition from your partner; the ability to sooth yourself in the face of hurt and anxiety; to stay non-reactive when you partner is anxious or provocative; and to tolerate pain for growth."
Actually I do take class with the kids and they have sparred and competed in the past. Occasionally that have come up against opponents who thought a little too highly of themselves and did not take kindly to getting beat. What I told them in those situations was to watch the opponent as they come out in the second round, that they will do all they can to tie up the score. So instead they need to double up their attack, put the opponent down and keep them down.
As far as tactics go, a frustrated opponent makes many mistakes as s/he gets desperate. The kid’s training has capitalized on recognizing this, exploiting weaknesses and setting up for the attack and counterattack. That is why they have done so well.
BTW, when planning an attack or pressing to make an opening, thinking IS required. But for all else a better mental framework from which to spar is to NOT think – just instantly react. Sounds like hokey Bruce Lee stuff, but it is very true.
As far relationships go, I was once much lower down in the power balance. I have leveled the field somewhat, at least to the point hat I truly believe W and I have fairly equal voice over the major issues. Climbing out of that hole is a tough chore. To my W it felt like I was completely engulfing and controlling her world. I am sure it triggered some feelings of panic. But that is because she can only feel comfortable when in complete control. A 50/50 split is not a secure position for her, nor is 60/40. Moving to 70/30 may be tolerable.
She has had to undergo some adjustment to live with something closer to 50/50. She still complains about this, but I think she has to realize acknowledge that her fears that I will try to take her share of the assets, take the kids away from her, etc. have not come to fruition. But I also believe that she still does not think the field is level. That is a perception problem on her part. But I have evened the playing field and I have to intention of going back to the old order.
As for the Schnarch quote, I am very familiar with the quote and completely understand its full meaning. I can work on my reactivity, holding onto myself if I believe it will promote the marriage (and again I am not convinced that it will), but I will not go back to the old order.
Cobra said: The problem I am having with what everyone here is preaching is that I should stay above the fray, let W do as she pleases and hope that eventually she will see her errors and self correct, that there is nothing I can or should do to change or correct her, for otherwise it is manipulation
Double ditto. No one is saying this. Why do you hear this?
Cobra, you have shown yourself to be a smart guy, insightful, sensitive... get down off that defensive pedestal and HEAR what your friends who love you (and who have NO vested interest in what happens inside your relationship) are telling you.
Okay, blow off what your W is saying (with no name calling)... but why are you blowing off what WE are saying?
Rage gives one a rush and a feeling of superiority. It feels pretty damn good, but, you know, deep down that it ain't the real deal. The real deal doesn't come from controlling others behavior. It comes from knowing that you controlled your own and influenced another to be the best they can be.
Best of luck to you.
I don't mind the sun sometime
The images it shows
I can taste you on my lips
And smell you in my clothes
Cinnamon and Sugar
And softly spoken lies
You never know just how you look
Through someone elses eyes
BHS-"Pepper"
I can understand your frustration with my “stubbornness” in listening to your advice, but frankly I do not believe most of you know what I am dealing with. There have been a few posters on this board who are in similar situations. I think Hairdog’s wife is similar to mine, so was V/ZBube’s wife and one other guy who was around for a short time.
I believe my W has major FOO issues that push her into her OCD behaviors, exacerbate her ADD and cause her to exert extremely strong control over her world. Her childhood was totally chaotic and the only coping mechanism she could come up with was to control as much in her life as possible. It was not just a matter of preference, but for her I believe she saw it as almost a matter of life or death. To control is to find peace and security. No one can be trusted, especially males. These are the makings of a dictator.
Years ago, when the kids were small, all this was more evident because she was not on medication. I saw very clear cycles to her emotions which led me to suspect she was manic/depressive or possibly a borderline personality. Since she has been on medication, I have not seen this cyclicality occur. The meds have flattened that out. But she has moderated the dosage because too much makes her groggy and dulls her mind. The problem is that for normal, non-stressful daily life, this is fine. When stress levels go up, this level of medication is not enough.
A lot came together to trigger this latest argument - school starting for her and the kids, my taking the kids on vacation right before school starts so she did not have the chance to get everything “just right” before school started and relieve her stress, and then S9 getting the ear ache. She assumes far too much responsibility for the kids, which often causes her to magnify the seriousness of the issue. Their problems are her problems and with her working now, it is too much for her to handle. She has complained of this to our counselor, saying that she HAS to do this because I won’t.
The counselor does not see the concern any more than I do. She does understand why W feels this way and has been trying to get W to let go of things and see if the kids can cope and actually survive – and they have. The downside for W is now the kids are less dependent on her so I think she feels a certain degree of abandonment, causing her to turn to her work and put in long hours, under the excuse that as a new teach with ADD, she HAS to. S9 is not lost on this change and pressures her to come home sooner.
With a personality like this, it is important to understand that growth is very slow and very reluctant. The counselor has had some success, but it pales in comparison to what I had done. The biggest fastest changes in our marriage have come about when I forced change. Think of her as a bully trying to mark of as much of the neighborhood as possible as “his” turf. She will not give up “her” ground, as illegitimate as it may be unless she has to. I am pushing her back with everything I have. She will fight and protest loudly, but she will pull back. As long as I monitor the new border, she will hold her position, all the time complaining about how I treated her, but never acknowledging the fact that she should never have encroached there in the first place.
So to her I am the bad guy. To you all I appear as the bad guy. Fighting this fight takes a huge toll on me and on my kids. But I will not give back ground already won. It was far too expensive. My frustration with this board is that you all do not seem to understand this. You are lucky in that you do not have this type of spouse to deal with. A rational spouse would be a godsend to me. Rationality only goes so far when you are dealing with fear. So in answer to your question Martelo, I say YES, my reactivity has improved the marriage.
Where I admit fault is in my delivery. There are times when a softer more compassionate approach may be better. A calm, firm, assertive alpha would also be good. But just being this type of H all the time will NOT push back that border. The only way to move the line is by force or my her own desire. Until she achieves her own awareness and comes to see what she cannot see, I am forced to make a decision on what is best for my kids and myself. Sometimes I chose to tolerate her encroachment, and I tell the kids to make peace and just let things go, that in the end it doesn’t matter that much. Other times I must push back.
If everyone can help me to push in a more diplomatic way, I would be grateful. But understand that simply holding to my borders values, etc. in the hopes that she will eventually listen to her guild and control her encroachment is wishful thinking, IMO. And if it does work, it could take too long. Trying to get her to move voluntarily means she needs to understand why she should move. She has built extremely high and strong defenses to prevent this from occurring. It is a very, very difficult situation.
I don't know if this will help you at all, seems like you constantly shoot me down...but I'll try anyway.
My H has a tendancy to automatically go to the negative ANYTIME I want to sit down and talk about something difficult, or talk about an issue that he's uncomfortable with. His defenses automatically go up and he hears me through filters....so he honestly misses what I'm actually saying. Here's an example.
A few months ago I found that he'd been on a boating site that he likes to visit. Now much of what he looks at on that website doesn't bother me....however, some of what he looked at in the past (naked bleached blondes) does bother me....especially considering what I've gone through since Feb. I'm doing much better about this as a trigger, but when I'm triggered, I try to communicate to him why.
So...I found some pictures on our computer. Now being the computer savvy woman that I am, I could tell these weren't photos he'd necessarily clicked on to view (they were thumbnails in a gallery of other photos, I verified that when I went and looked). Anyway....just seeing those thumbnail photos brought back bad feelings for me...so I was trying to let him know WHY I was in a quiet/bad mood. I wasn't attacking him, wasn't even accusing him of doing anything wrong...just saw something that triggered a response in me.
When I tried to talk to him about it he immediately started accusing me of not giving him credit that he'd been looking at other stuff on that site...boats, engines, a dog in a boat etc. I literally told him seven times that "why would I bring that stuff up? I knew he had viewed those things, but those things aren't issues for me....naked women, those are issues." I kid you not, I had to calmly repeat myself to this red-faced man seven times (I finally started counting) before he calmed down enough to actually HEAR me and see I wasn't attaking him. Did I get frustrated? Oh hell yeah! I even flat-out stated to him "I know you were looking at all sorts of stuff on that website, stuff I have NO problem with. At one point he was so angry he wouldn't even sit down next to me to talk, because he was hearing me through his defensive filters. Not until I looked at him with what I know was a confused look on my face and asked him "Why are you getting so angry? I haven't accused you of anything, I haven't said you did anything wrong....I'm just telling you I saw something and it triggered memories/feelings, I just wanted to talk it out so you would know what was going on." Right about that time is when I saw his color returning to normal and I could listerally see the light of reason returning to his eyes. THAT is when he started to hear what I was saying. Yes, it took me repitition and persistence....but above all it took ME staying calm. I have no doubt that had I gotten angry that he wasn't hearing me, or that he was overreacting to what I was saying....he never would have heard what I was saying. (BTW...Mr. GEL is someone who tends to react to the extremes, esp if he feels like someone is attacking him, trying to prove he's wrong, or pointing out flaws.)
Cobra, my H is used to being on the defensive, which I suspect that for whatever reason (even if it's her own doing) your W is too. He automatically assumes that when someone has a differing opinion or POV than his....they are going to try to prove him WRONG. I can't escape this feeling that your W is much the same. So with him I honestly have to take an approach which takes right/wrong out of the equation, it throws him for a loop too. I'm seeing great results though with this approach....but it's taken time, persistence....and hurculean amounts of patience. You asked for a diplomatic approach...there you go.
I feel like often your approach towards your W makes HER feel like you are constantly pointing out what's wrong with her (legitimately or not) and making it a right/wrong issue. She WILL fight you on this...it's in her programming, she's been fighting you on this...she's going to continue to do so unless you change you approach and give your approach time to work.
Is it possible for you to maintain an approach that takes right/wrong out of the equation? Now before you say "no that won't work and here's why..." to that, that does not mean she has to agree to adopt that approach herself (my H NEVER has adopted it)....only YOU have to be willing to try it. It is working for me, and I'm the only one adopting that approach....my H doesn't even know I've recognized this in him and have altered my approach with him. If I told him that....it would change the dynamic and defeat the purpose.
Quote: So, to say "I am acting this way because of you and I won't be controlled by you" pegs my irony meter.
Wow, Mrs. Nop. I never thought of it from that angle! And you are absolutely right. And I have yet to figure out HOW to not be 'controlled' in more ways than this by my H and now XH.
When you are hurt and angry and feel as if the OP is playing games with you... giving you hope then taking it away at the most random moments...
HOW do you avoid being sucked in to that emotional tornado?
I think for my sanity; me and alot of other people need to know this!
I hear what you are saying and I have been able to do this at times. Sometimes I can see her trying to make some small changes, or at least staying out of things if they do not directly concern her. You are correct that she takes everything I say as a potential attack or criticism. But in my defense, I must say that if she would concede to some of my concerns or at least try to address them, a LOT of my “criticism” would go away. The fact that she tends to hoard control over every aspect of the kids pushes me completely out of the circle and makes me feel like an outsides and only a work horse.
I have explained this to her, as has the counselor. This part is slowly sinking in, though I think it is somewhat a façade. She still keeps oversight on my actions. If she thinks I am out of line for some reason, she will over rule my decisions.
Yesterday was a good example. Tues is usually TKD night, the only night we go now. But with school starting, there as an open house so we both went. I told W and the kids we would do TKD on Thursday instead. Well yesterday D15 stayed after school to talk to her math teacher. She was having problems with some new concepts and has a test today. I had called home as I usually do to be sure the kids got home ok, to tell them to do their homework, see how much they have, remind them to get ready for TKD.
D15 was not there so I called her at school, which is when I found out about this whole math problem. But D15 seemed to be fine with TKD, so I was going to pick her up at school. D15 called W to see if W could pick her up instead. W then called me to tell me the kids were not going to TKD that night. We went round on this awhile because I felt she was telling me what to do, not asking. She said I had told her what to do by earlier telling the kids TKD would be Thursday rather than Tuesday. She never agreed to the change so I was therefore forcing it on her.
Yeah, that sounded like a bunch of BS but I pressed the point that if I was supposed to get her permission to change TKD nights, or at least ask her if it is OK to change, then she needs to afford me the same consideration and ask me to not take the kids on Thursday, rather than tell me. That bit of “logicalling” got through and she agreed (for now).
But read between the lines and you will see that her reaction is driven by a need to protect the kids. She sees me as the bad person, and she goes into protective mode. Really she is reacting to her own fears that are being triggered by the kids putting too much responsibility on her. She is feeling overwhelmed. The worst part of all this is that she demands that the kids do this – they need to let her know of everything going on, or they get in trouble. So she forcefully takes on more than she can handle then blows a gasket.
Sometimes, like yesterday, I can handle her well and work past her defensiveness and reach some understanding. Other times I have reached my limit and I blow up. Surprisingly, those blows can actually bring about constructive change.
To continue my story, she had also complained that I did not know what was going on with D15’s math issues since I was not around. I went to play softball on Wed night, as I usually do (which triggers some of her entitlement resentment). So last night I came home from work and offered to help clean up, since the house was a mess from her cooking dinner on Wed night (even though I asked her to clean up after herself on the increasingly rare times that she does cook). I cleaned the kitchen and heated leftovers for the kids. She cleaned the cat litter box and threw some clothes in the wash for the kids to then fold. So things got back in order and I think she felt supported, though at first she did ask me why I was being so nice??!! That speaks to her trust issues and self esteem issues, but I let it go. At the end of the day, I think I was able to lower the tension in the house and set up for a little better atmosphere going into the weekend when she said she would have time to talk. We shall see.
