Cobra, I don't believe anyone is saying you "shouldn't" be getting mad, or that your W's behavior wouldn't drive a saint nuts-- for that matter, so would yours-- the ONLY behavior I'm addressing here is the abandonment of respect that is name-calling.
You can say, "You're unreasonable, you make me furious, I cannot tolerate this behavior, yadda, yadda, yadda..." but you must put a stop to and never again call her a Fcking Btch or the equivalent NO MATTER WHAT SHE CALLS YOU!
You all sound like you don't have one scrap of respect for each other.
I'll say it for the third time: You must maintain some kind of minimal level of civility in your interactions.
Of course, even civilized fights can be very damaging for the kids if they're constant and unrelenting... but first things first.
Quote: It takes a really long time.....more time than most people are willing to give....UNLESS they do it for themselves. I quit calling my H names because I felt more like who I wanted to be,
Good on you, Heather. The time is probably somewhat commensurate with the duration of the prior bad relational interactions. A relational dynamic that has gone on for years is probably going to take more than a couple of weeks to effect a change.
From my viewpoint, when a person keeps saying "I act this way because he/she acts this way!" - that person is not autonomous - they are *being controlled*.
The very thing they declare they are strugging against.
That rates up there amongst the ultimate ironies of life.
The ability to continue to be integrous to yourself amidst an onslaught is truly an indication of being controlled by no one BUT yourself.
So, to say "I am acting this way because of you and I won't be controlled by you" pegs my irony meter.
It is much chagrin that I admit that I display many of the negative attributes you describe:
Quote: So W complains that I am abusive to her when I am yelling and trying to control her, but I now realize she is being abusive too, only in a more covert, sneaky way…. by ignoring my needs and my POV. She has “grown” enough to say that she “acknowledges” my POV, but it is just that, my POV and nothing more. There is no real truth in it as far as she is concerned.
Now HER POV is gospel, she is a self proclaimed honest person, accepts and admits to all her issues, honestly acknowledges those truths about me that she cares to acknowledge, and the rest of my claims are just projection. She adds power to this by then doing whatever she wants, such as taking kids out of school, putting them on meds, running up credit cards, all while I was at work. On top of all this she then withholds sex. So she has created a history of incidents from which I cannot trust her, just as she claims she cannot trust me because of her past grievances. Her claims are starting to sound a little hypocritical now….
So, to defend herself against losing this power she then plays victim and cries all kinds of abuse, and adds an air of righteousness by saying she is really doing what is best for the kids, that I do not have them at heart, and all I care about is sex. That makes a nice bag of daggers, enough to keep any man off balance and trying to find excuses for a long time. Should he come up with a reply, she can just reject it out of hand because she does not trust him. When will W ever get to trusting me again? She doesn’t know or care to say what is required, only that she will know it when she sees it.
And guess what is the glue that holds all this together? Timing. It is critical that she show no hesitation in crying abuse. She must strike first and make this loud and widely heard. The best defense is a strong offense. Rock me back on my heels, automatically putting me on the defensive and I will have to spend all my energies running in circles trying to prove I am not abusive. It’s nothing more than McCarthyism.
To me this all sounds like the stereotypically covert female power and control tactic. My W has played the prima donna role before. Yep, it is all to avoid culpability. She is not innocent, no more than I am. She is every bit as abusive as she claims I am. Her way is covert. Mine is open and plain to see. Now let me see….. where have I read about this sort of thing before….. oh yeah, Dr, Laura!!! No wonder W and so many women hate what Dr. Laura writes. All their secrets are revealed.
Yep, now W is going to have to fight fairly…. I am beginning to see the light…. and it is not just ME that is to blame, it is not just ME who is abusive, it is not just ME who is trying to control everything. Like they say, both people in a relationship have equal levels of differentiation, they just manifest in different ways and on different levels. Boy, this is REALLY underhanded, sneaky and manipulative…. she’s got a LOT of owning up to do now!
You got my number, Cobra, but I must say that your approach would not give me much inspriation to change.
I don't mind the sun sometime
The images it shows
I can taste you on my lips
And smell you in my clothes
Cinnamon and Sugar
And softly spoken lies
You never know just how you look
Through someone elses eyes
BHS-"Pepper"
Thanks for the article. We are both aware of the collateral damage to the kids from arguing. We each lived it as well. It is these intense emotions that we need to control. The best way to do that, as far as I am concerned, is to address the underlying problem. That almost always requires compromise by both parties.
The ability to continue to be integrous to yourself amidst an onslaught is truly an indication of being controlled by no one BUT yourself.
This sounds great in theory but in practice it is another matter. The problem I am having with what everyone here is preaching is that I should stay above the fray, let W do as she pleases and hope that eventually she will see her errors and self correct, that there is nothing I can or should do to change or correct her, for otherwise it is manipulation. I do not believe I should put up with her abuse, whether covert or overt, as she should not put up with mine. And I should not have to wait years for her to come around to making changes to stop that abuse. Having to endure and push back against her control for an extended period of time is abusive to me, and having been there, I am very reluctant to let her do it again.
Remaining “integrous” amidst an onslaught is nothing more than accepting a certain level of abuse. Every person has the right to self defense. If I do not launch the first attack, then I see no reason to feel that I have compromised my values by defending myself. What I am hearing from you, and maybe this is just my issue, is that I should endure her crap to somehow be the better person, that I will therefore feel better about myself. I can tell you that I have no qualms whatsoever with myself if I justifiably defend myself.
Cine,
You got my number, Cobra, but I must say that your approach would not give me much inspriation to change.
Yep, I’ve heard this from W too. It is all BS and a major deflection. W assumes that because she does not like the way I object to her abuse, that I react in an abusive way, that she is entitled to continue her part. Our first counselor got caught up in this twisted way of thinking too. She wanted me to drop all my defensiveness, purge my anger and make a “safe” environment for W to effect her changes.
Her position was that as the male and the stronger more physically threatening mate (yeah, right!), it was incumbent on me to make W first feel safe. I now see that as falling right into the feminist victim trap. I believe that in grid-locked marriages like mine, growth can only come about in two ways. The first is on the individual level, a la Schnarch. But no matter how much personal growth is made, at some point the two people must come together and find compromise, which is the second approach. This mutual change at the relationship level can only be done simultaneously. If one person is willing to make his/her changes first, and alone, in the hopes that the spouse will remain honest and reciprocate, then fine. But in my M, that will not work. The trust levels are too low and there is too much history of sabotage.
The only way we can move forward is to do so together. That means W must either drop the feminist victim role and stop holding up past grievances or accept and come to terms with me doing the same. As long as things are equal (whether those things are right or wrong), I think the relationship can progress. It does not matter whether you like my approach or not, as long as it is “fair.”
address the underlying problem. That almost always requires compromise by both parties.
Yes, compromise by both parties and a lot of trust. That's why cutting right to the sensitive underlying issues may not be the best place to start for your particular M. Or mine. There is more than one way to skin a cat Cobra, although I hate that saying.
there is nothing I can or should do to change or correct her, for otherwise it is manipulation.
Unless I missed it, the only person on this thread who has used the word 'manipulation' is you. I think Lil counted three times that she's tried to clarify what she's saying in particular and what the rest of us are saying is not far off.
let W do as she pleases and hope that eventually she will see her errors and self correct,
Most people want to be a good person, I believe that. Do you believe that about your W? Aren't there subtle ways you can guide her through what YOUR version of a good person is without calling her a fcking B? Just like with your kids, lead by example. She's not stupid ya know.
Remaining “integrous” amidst an onslaught is nothing more than accepting a certain level of abuse.
I think you should focus on the word *accepting*. It's pretty hard to abuse a person who isn't there, who walked away or handled something without the <abusive> input from the other party. Again, setting the example, making your boundary. Cobra, you know all this, you're just falling into the trap of believing that your situation is different, that it doesn't apply to you or your W or your M. IT DOES. If Blackfoot were here, he'd tell you that
Yep, I’ve heard this from W too. It is all BS and a major deflection.
Deflection of WHAT? I think what Cine is trying to say is that people must see a reason to change, you must get W to see your perspective.
I don't find it surprising at ALL that your W finds interactions with you "exhausting". You think you know everything Cobra and not only do you think you know everything, you think you know everything about HER. So then, what is left for her to say? I'm not saying this to be mean, I'm just saying that I have felt this from you just from my threads, so I can imagine living with you would be at least the same if not worse. I imagine she's constantly defending and explaining, which on the surface DOES sound like deflection. But the point may be that you think you've got her pegged, when in fact you DON'T and you won't listen to why and where your thinking may have gone wrong. What does Michle say? Start with a beginner's attitude or something? That might behoove you.
It does not matter whether you like my approach or not, as long as it is “fair.”
I suppose it doesn't matter so much that we don't like it, but your W doesn't seem to care for it either and I thought that was ultimately why you were here.
The problem I am having with what everyone here is preaching
You have got to work on the way you come across man. You will never truly reach her if you talk to her the way you talk here.
BTW, it sounds like you pitch in and cook and help her with things often. Does she acknowledge it?
Last edited by heatherg; 08/31/0603:38 PM.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
That's why cutting right to the sensitive underlying issues may not be the best place to start for your particular M.
Well, were not at any starting point. We’ve been going round for a long time.
Unless I missed it, the only person on this thread who has used the word 'manipulation' is you.
Actually I was thinking about some threads a while back where this issue of manipulation and control was discussed. I know no one has directly addressed manipulation at the moment, but control is central to the issue.
Most people want to be a good person, I believe that. Do you believe that about your W?
I am not sure about this. I think she wants to be good as long as she feels everything is OK. If not, say she feels some threat to the kids for whatever reason, then “good” goes out the window and survival mode kicks in.
She's not stupid ya know.
errrrr……. sometimes I wonder…
It's pretty hard to abuse a person who isn't there, who walked away or handled something without the <abusive> input from the other party.
In most situations walking away works just fine. On issues affecting only us, I have no problem walking away. But there is a history of issues surrounding the kids in which she ignores my wishes and does what she wants. Walking away will not resolve those problems. She will do as she please whether I walk away or not. My only recourse is to stay in the fray and try to find a compromise solution.
Cobra, you know all this, you're just falling into the trap of believing that your situation is different, that it doesn't apply to you or your W or your M.
I know there is not much different in our M than in others, except perhaps a matter of degree.
Deflection of WHAT? I think what Cine is trying to say is that people must see a reason to change, you must get W to see your perspective.
What I am saying to Cine is that her reason for not wanting to change (because she does not like my approach) is a deflection of HER responsibility to change for her own sake.
Of course W finds the discussion exhausting. She just will not acknowledge my POV. She will not concede to any compromise. I think you are mistaken in assuming it is I who refuses to hear. That is the purpose of my latest discussion. This idea that I am the one who is intractable is wrong. I have my POV. I am entitled to that. She has her and she is entitled to it. Compromise means recognizing both of ours, and that is what she will not do.
What you are saying sounds to me like I am the one making the discussion exhausting because I will not back off my position and let her POV rule. She is the one making the discussion exhausting because she refuses to accept a compromise position.
You think you know everything Cobra and not only do you think you know everything, you think you know everything about HER. So then, what is left for her to say?
For her issues, I do know her very well. I fully believe she is still in a certain level of denial. She has not come to her “awakening” yet. She will not admit to this as she does not know what I am talking about. She cannot see it until she sees it. But I see it.
Her position is that I am simply wrong, that I do not know what I am talking about and am only projecting my issues onto her. That is why we have a counselor, to verify these matters and help each of us through our blind spots. I had mine which I did a lot to work through. W now has hers which she is resisting.
I suppose it doesn't matter so much that we don't like it, but your W doesn't seem to care for it either and I thought that was ultimately why you were here.
That does not matter to me because there are plenty of things with her approach I do not like either. Again, accepting your premise that I should make all the changes to her satisfaction before she will change herself is to fall back into the trap she has kept me in for so long. For me to change means the pressure comes off her. In fact she once said that everything would be fine if I just let her do whatever she wanted! She is no prima dona.
This “manipulative” game really came into focus for me when reading Schnarch. Remember the one couple in which the wife was angry that her H was always pressing her for sex? She felt like the focus was always on her to change. Most therapists would side with the W, saying the man needs to make changes within him to allow the W to feel safe, and give her the time needed to come to that feeling of safety, that he is wrong for continually pressing this issue.
Remember that Schnarch told this woman that when she blames her H for pressuring her, she is really avoiding confronting her own choice – she needed to decide to either change herself or get out of the relationship. She did not want to confront that choice.
This is exactly what is going one in my marriage. I told W to stop dragging up the past and holding over my head and to let go of her resentment, or call her lawyers and file. But I was tired of her always complaining that the spotlight is on her because of my complaints yet she refuses to acknowledge the or do anything about them. She keeps the focus on herself by refusing to address this. Then she turns it around by saying I am abusive. This is the point that Schnarch and Dr. Laura come together.
BTW, it sounds like you pitch in and cook and help her with things often. Does she acknowledge it?
With all the anger and frustration you have do you think that you would be able to right now this very second engage in passionate open hearted intimate sex with your wife if she was aproached you right now?
What are you willing to confront in yourself what are you willing to change in your life to get what you want?
Quote: The problem I am having with what everyone here is preaching is that I should stay above the fray, let W do as she pleases and hope that eventually she will see her errors and self correct, that there is nothing I can or should do to change or correct her, for otherwise it is manipulation
With all the anger and frustration you have do you think that you would be able to right now this very second engage in passionate open hearted intimate sex with your wife if she was aproached you right now?
I was pretty ticked off the other night. I’m mostly over it now. Pe
