Quote: Thank you for understanding my sitch... Yes, I do That is why I do what I believe I must do, try to learn as much as I can to be sure I am not taking the wrong path, and stick to my beliefs regardless of what he consensus says.
It takes alot of huevos to do this... just 'look' before you leap...
Quote: Our counselor sees this quite clearly too, has been trying to get through to W on this, but has been met with the very same resistance and types of excuses that I get.I told her that Harley recommends 15 hours per week together, to which she replied that she could not do that because of her job. I told her that Harley recommends finding a new job, but of course that fell on deaf ears.
Question: Is Harley your counselor? And if so... does your W feel as if he is 'on your side'? Could that be why suggestions fall on 'deaf ears'? I know when our counselor even hinted that our problems was his fault too... he stopped going. Has your W shown resistance to going?
Quote: I should not feel betrayed each time she turns on me, when I think things have been going well, and feel that all the previous buildup of good will was not honest. Those are my issues. I need to trust that she does not trust and find a way to live with that (yeah, right!)
I absolutely know how you feel here! It's like having the rug jerked out from under you over and over... and over. Then when you're invited to step back onto that rug and dig your toes in... you start feeling like an idiot. and I don't know about you... but MY trust in words... (his)expressed feelings evaporate. And worse... I don't trust myself anymore to make a logical decision. Because stupid me, I keep stepping onto that damn rug thinking; it'll be different this time. This time he means what he says. This time, just because he gets depressed, overwhelmed and guilty, it doesn't mean he's going to yank that rug away again. HA! Surprise!
Quote: As for your issues with me “forcing” the kids to take TKD, well, its just your issue. I have my reason for them getting their black belts. There is a lot more to it than just learning forms or doing kicks.
I applaude you Cobra. I don't have this issue now... and i was a Mom that let my kids pick their own pursuits... their own way... but do you know my 24 year old son has told me that he wishes that my H and I would have forced him to play sports or something of that nature?? parents are there to guide their children, push them or even force them to do what they believe; in the big picture, will benefit their kids. I believe that is what you are doing. They will thank you later!
Thanks for the understanding. It means a lot right now. I’m taking a pretty good beating on this board, but I have not heard anything to change my mind on what my path should be. Others may not like it but tough. They don’t have to live my life either. I concede on the tactics I use, but I will fcuk up at times too. I don’t care what anyone says. W has a role to play in this. I can control my anger and my words, but W does not have the right to attack me as she does.
And if she does, I will only take so much. There is no way I will even try to make myself reach a level where I can keep absorbing hurt. At some point I will fight back. That is me. If she doesn’t like it, then she can either leave or stop attacking me.
No, our counselor is not Harley. I have read his books and he is often mentioned on this board. W is generally familiar with what he says, though I don’t think she has read any of his books.
Regarding our counselor, W is upset in that she thinks the counselor is siding with me in focusing on W’s issues. W had no problem going to session when the C had me under the spotlight. I did not like the feeling so I decided to turn the tables and started reading everything I could put my hands on. That is when the “power” balance in the sessions shifted and W started to become defensive. She has been digging in her heels ever since. She likes to assert how much she has changed and is working on things. If the counselor can see it then fine. But she does not see it.
As for the kids, I have heard the same comments from many other adults who wished their parents pushed them more as a child, whether that be in sports, music, or whatever. I do not think I am abusing this with my kids. I truly believe it is closer to a value issue.
No, with this current counselor, a child and family counselor, we never got to the point of trying something like that. I think it is outside the realm of her experience too. We did attend a weekend session with the previous counselor and they did a little of this. It was awkward, and I think it would be the same today.
Whenever we have sex or try to be intimate, she seems to often default back to some issue as a way to throw up a barrier. I have to tell her to stop and just focus on what feels good right here right now. If she can reach orgasm, which always requires a body massager vibrator, then she can focus on the sex and the feelings. But until then, her thoughts keep pulling her in different directions. She tries too hard to O and the smallest thing can throw her off (a noise, her legs aren’t positioned just right, I am not fingering her just right, etc.)
I have been thinking we need a new counselor for this very reason. I would like to find a Schnarchian counselor in our area.
Our therapist gave us some exercises to work on things for both of us. As she was anxious she needed to learn to stay with that anxiety and I needed (still need) to give her feelings of safety and care in the anxiety producing situations.
We needed to enter into difficult and anxiety producing situations and stay with the feelings that came up while maintaining a safe and caring environment to get a hold of some very negative emotions we had around sex.
I your wife is truly avoidant of intimacy and your just talking I’m afraid you’re going to be spinning your wheels. I think you may need to find a new therapist. The great thing about “divorce busting” is that it is actionable. Talk therapy is good but actually building intimacy through action with your wife is what is needed.
What steps do you think you can take to deal with your wife’s anxiety regarding sex and intimacy?
cobra, I never said you should "take it" or not stand up for yourself or not argue. I said you should not resort to name-calling. I said your R needs a minimal level of respect and civility. Because name-calling is bad for YOU, whether you think she "deserves" it or not.
Of course you must speak up and object and stand your ground and draw a line in the sand and all whatever you think is necessary. But you cannot call her a <fill in the blank> while you are doing it.
How did you not get this point? How did you distort this into thinking that you were being told to take whatever she is dishing out without batting an eye.
Corri, honey, hairdog, GEL, Mrs NOP, karen-- all of us are telling you to be civil and not to call names no matter how mad you get. I know you respect OUR opinions, if not your W's. Why are you defending this indefensible behavior?
I'm posting between softball games, with time to think things over. I do understand what everyone is saying. I didn't miss the point. Thinking about it some, what I think makes me mad is that she is too much like my mother in that she really doesn't give a rat's ass about what ANYONE thinks, especially me. My mom would be just like this, and still is, when she gets mad. It doesn't matter whether she is all wrong and she knows it or not. She and my WILL NOT concede, and that absolutely infuriates me. There is no possibility for compromise or negotiation. The outcome of the relationship does not matter as they are both more than willing to take down anyone and anything to WIN.
The only way I foujd to counter this was to totally escalate the level of the fight to match what they were already doing. To me they had already broken all rules of civility and thrown the relationship out the window to boot. My escalation paled in comparison to this, I had already lost all respect for them and was now in battle with the devil herself. No holds are barred and cursing becomes a minor issue.
As I write this I am not too sure that I can find much fault with my logic even now. I have ALWAYS held myself within civility until W (or Mom) escalates. I believe that in any relationship both people must negotiate in good faith and from civility.
That may still noy sit well with everyone, but that is my belief, that is what I am up against, and that is how I deal with it.
So W complains that I am abusive to her when I am yelling and trying to control her, but I now realize she is being abusive too, only in a more covert, sneaky way…. by ignoring my needs and my POV. She has “grown” enough to say that she “acknowledges” my POV, but it is just that, my POV and nothing more. There is no real truth in it as far as she is concerned.
Now HER POV is gospel, she is a self proclaimed honest person, accepts and admits to all her issues, honestly acknowledges those truths about me that she cares to acknowledge, and the rest of my claims are just projection. She adds power to this by then doing whatever she wants, such as taking kids out of school, putting them on meds, running up credit cards, all while I was at work. On top of all this she then withholds sex. So she has created a history of incidents from which I cannot trust her, just as she claims she cannot trust me because of her past grievances. Her claims are starting to sound a little hypocritical now….
So, to defend herself against losing this power she then plays victim and cries all kinds of abuse, and adds an air of righteousness by saying she is really doing what is best for the kids, that I do not have them at heart, and all I care about is sex. That makes a nice bag of daggers, enough to keep any man off balance and trying to find excuses for a long time. Should he come up with a reply, she can just reject it out of hand because she does not trust him. When will W ever get to trusting me again? She doesn’t know or care to say what is required, only that she will know it when she sees it.
And guess what is the glue that holds all this together? Timing. It is critical that she show no hesitation in crying abuse. She must strike first and make this loud and widely heard. The best defense is a strong offense. Rock me back on my heels, automatically putting me on the defensive and I will have to spend all my energies running in circles trying to prove I am not abusive. It’s nothing more than McCarthyism.
To me this all sounds like the stereotypically covert female power and control tactic. My W has played the prima donna role before. Yep, it is all to avoid culpability. She is not innocent, no more than I am. She is every bit as abusive as she claims I am. Her way is covert. Mine is open and plain to see. Now let me see….. where have I read about this sort of thing before….. oh yeah, Dr, Laura!!! No wonder W and so many women hate what Dr. Laura writes. All their secrets are revealed.
Yep, now W is going to have to fight fairly…. I am beginning to see the light…. and it is not just ME that is to blame, it is not just ME who is abusive, it is not just ME who is trying to control everything. Like they say, both people in a relationship have equal levels of differentiation, they just manifest in different ways and on different levels. Boy, this is REALLY underhanded, sneaky and manipulative…. she’s got a LOT of owning up to do now!
Here's an article I located. When you are in the heat of a long-term marital battle, it's easy to lose sight of the collateral damage. Somewhere in the sea of power-playing, one of you needs to consider the long-term effects this is having on your children.
Your children need a hero in their home. Who's it going to be?
:Begin Article: +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Parents Who Fight May Harm Children's Future Emotional Development
How parents handle everyday marital conflicts has a significant effect on how secure their children feel, which, in turn, significantly affects their future emotional adjustment. This finding, from researchers at the universities of Notre Dame, Rochester (NY) and Catholic University of America in Washington, D.C., was published in the January/February 2006 issue of the journal Child Development. It provides powerful new evidence regarding the impact of parental behavior on children's future behavior.
"A useful analogy is to think about emotional security as a bridge between the child and the world," explained lead researcher Mark Cummings, Ph.D., professor and Notre Dame Chair in Psychology of the Psychology Department of the University of Notre Dame in Indiana. "When the marital relationship is functioning well, it serves as a secure base, a structurally sound bridge to support the child's exploration and relationships with others."
"When destructive marital conflict erodes the bridge, children may lack confidence and become hesitant to move forward, or may move forward in a dysregulated way, unable to find appropriate footing within themselves or in interaction with others." The researchers based their report on two separate long-term studies of marital conflict and children.
The first study involved 226 parents and their 9- to-18-year-old children. The researchers examined the effect of marital conflict over three years, finding that forms of destructive marital conflict, such as personal insults, defensiveness, marital withdrawal, sadness or fear, set in motion events that led to later emotional insecurity and maladjustment in children, including depression, anxiety, and behavior problems. This occurred even when the researchers controlled for any initial adjustment problems.
The second study again examined the connection between marital conflict and emotional problems over a three-year period, this time in a different group of 232 parents and much younger children (kindergarteners). Researchers again found that marital conflict sets in motion events that led to later emotional insecurity and maladjustment. Again, researchers controlled for any initial adjustment problems, further supporting the conclusion that marital conflict was related with children's emotional insecurity and adjustment problems. Both studies involved representative community samples and everyday conflict behaviors (for example, verbal hostility) about everyday sources of conflict between parents, such as childcare and household responsibilities. Because of this, the findings can likely be generalized to most American families.
Parents and even mental health professionals are likely unaware of the significance of marital conflict for the well-being of children, said Dr. Cumming, and few may know that children's security is so closely tied to the quality of parental relationships. At the same time, however, other work from Dr. Cummings and his peers find that constructive marital conflict, in which parents express or engage in physical affection, problem solving, compromise or positive feelings, may increase children's security. "Thus," Dr. Cummings noted, "this study is a warning to strongly encourage parents to learn how to handle conflicts constructively for the sake of both their children and themselves."
Summarized from Child Development, Vol. 77, Issue 1, Interparental Discord and Child Adjustment: Prospective Investigations of Emotional Security as an Explanatory Mechanism. By Cummings EM, Schermerhorn AC (both of the University of Notre Dame), Davies PT (University of Rochester), Goeke-Morey MC (Catholic University of America), and Cummings JS (University of Notre Dame). Copyright 2006 The Society for Research in Child Development, Inc. All rights reserved.
Andrea Browning abrowning@srcd.org Society for Research in Child Development
:End Article:
The two options aren't doormat and raving banshee.
There is also the option of calm, resolute, assertive, deliberate strength. A rock. If one person is raving and the other continues to respond assertively, yet calmly, the raver eventually notices the extremeness of their behavior.
Her poor behaviors and over-the-top actions, will be highlighted - brought into focus - by a resolute response from you.
With you both jockeying for the position of power, using the exact same techniques, everyone loses.
There is also the option of calm, resolute, assertive, deliberate strength. A rock. If one person is raving and the other continues to respond assertively, yet calmly, the raver eventually notices the extremeness of their behavior.
Her poor behaviors and over-the-top actions, will be highlighted - brought into focus - by a resolute response from you.
This is exactly what I was trying to get across when I mentioned the decrease in namecalling by my H as a result of me refusing to call him names. It takes a really long time.....more time than most people are willing to give....UNLESS they do it for themselves. I quit calling my H names because I felt more like who I wanted to be, so I didn't really notice how much time has passed until yeserday when I posted to Cobra that it has been over a year. If I had stopped the name calling just to get a response from H, there is no way I would have been able to keep it up.
This situation really underlined for me how long it really takes to effect change in someone else's behavior as a result of a change in your own. When people say you must have patience, they ain't kiddin. It also underlined how important it is to make the changes for yourself because if you don't, you will not have the willpower to continue the behavior for as long as it will take. Which in turn, underlines the idea of doing deep introspection and really looking at yourself and taking inventory of the things you want to change about yourself. This stuff all really does start to come together at some point......I feel a lot of clicks lately.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
I believe that is what you are doing. They will thank you later!