Quote: Some people used 'past grievances' as an excuse to be selfish. An excuse to abuse the W/H in the high moral ground of... you-did-me-wrong!
What happens when time passes? What should happen when the offender has shown remorse, appologized, prostrated themselves? and still... when the offended feels the need to be justified or maybe just vendictive... it is once again arrowed straight at the others heart?
How long is too long? How many accusations are enough? How many times before you get soooo tired that you want to scream to roof off the house?
And some people want to blow by the past because they don't want to acknowledge possible wrong doing, poor behavior, hurtful actions - whatever you want to label them.
We don't know what route Cobra has taken in response to his wife's list of grievances. I can say that IMO, his postings here do not give any indication that he has ever acknowledged that she might have a grievance to be addressed. From what he has posted, his response seems to be that she is deflecting and that it is unjustified anger resonating from her FOO.
That doesn't exactly address the possible grievance.
If they keep bringing it up, how hard is it to say, "yes, I did xyz and I'm sorry that you were hurt by it. My goal is to not do that/say that again. But right now we are dealing with this issue, what can we do to address it?"
I can tell you that my own marriage did not move forward until my husband acknowledged that there were issues from our past that needed to at least be acknowledged. I have tried to acknowledge and apologize and change my past actions that had caused him hurt over the years as well.
The reality is that the past cannot be changed, it can however be used to impact your present in a positive, healing way.
Cobra's response to folks here now and in the past indicate a short trigger and a massive amount of rage, again IMO. If that is his response to folks here who don't have a painful history with him, I imagine that his response with his wife is commensurate with the amount of pain she has inflicted on him.
If you choose to take the tack of the last poster I'm sure you can figure out where you will end up. If that is where you want to end up then go for it. Otherwise, look at what others are saying.
The point is... Karen... I am where I am by NOT STANDING UP FOR MYSELF! Let me tell you... Karen... the decision on being married or divorced is NOT up to one person. And if that person sees you as a pushover punching bag... guess what's going to happen in the end???
I am not telling Cobra to be mean and spiteful and abuse his W.(the thing with his children is a whole other issue; and Cobra knows what is right and how he should be with them... dont' you Cob? the thing is, Everyone has their bad moments but it doesn't color your whole life) BUT I am telling him to not let his W run over him like a Kenworth, then back up and do it again while he smiles nicely and tries to make her happy!
So.. bite me... Karen...
By giving back, in measure, what he dishes out; I've actually gotten his attention. It's when I go back to being Miss Nice-I'm-there-for-you that he starts rolling over me again.
-------------------- I was not commenting on YOUR choices in YOUR marriage. I was commenting on where Cobra is based on probably 100 postings of his that I have read. As for "bite me"- if this is an example of "standing up for yourself" I think it would behoove you to reread what I wrote. I was strictly addressing Cobra's sitch and the utility of those tactics in Cobra's sitch.
Additionally, I am divorced AND remarried. I did divorce in part due to my failure to stand up for myself with someone who was a control freak and addict. However, no amount of engaging him in verbal battles would have fixed that marriage. I couldn't do his work for him any more than Cobra can do the work for Mrs. Cobra or vice versa.
Cobra,
The questions were meant as guides. They are not too black and white and they are not platitudes. If you honestly look at YOUR own (not what you think I want you to choose) answers to the questions you might come to some realizations as to how to get closer rather than further from your goals.
I don't suggest that you should let Mrs. C clutter up the whole house and control everything. I do suggest that you set some goals for yourself and your marriage and then procede to have your actions relate to those goals. Calling of names and recinding the other parent's directive to a child doesn't lead anywhere positive. Definately not to being respected by the other party.
Cobra, you have very good insights on other's situations. You are very intelligent. You have even been known to show some sensitivity to people on this board. I would like to see you apply more of the sensitivity and inisght to your marriage. See your wife as she really is - a person who also wants a good, supportive, happy marriage and children who are well mannered, productive citizens. Do you think she wants to live in your marriage as it is?
BTW Cobra - remember when you said that I usually tend toward sympathetic, gentle type posts? This is one time I am not because I am firmly convinced that you can do better than this. When you perform kicks in TKD one of the primary skills to develop is balance....let's see some balance in your R.
It seems you think I might be making false, one-sided accusations of my W, without having acknowledged her complains or address my short comings. She would like to think that too, but the fact of the matter is that I have acknowledged and addressed her complaints repeatedly, in person and in counseling. Those complaints are:
When we first got married (15 years ago), or in the first year of our marriage:
• I criticized her dress, feeling that it was unreasonable of me to expect her to wear more than gym shorts and a t-shirt when going to the mall with my mother • I criticized her inability to cook • I criticized her weight gain • I did not acknowledge that our first child had colic and it was for this reason she could not sleep and had to be held continually • When our first daughter was in pre-K or K, I did not acknowledge that she had “suicidal ideations” (expressed only to my W at bedtime, and which I never heard)
I have acknowledged and apologized for the first three items (and any other incident similar to this and the same approximate time that I cannot remember now). For the latter two, I acknowledged that I believe she believes those things occurred, but I could not verify them one way or the other. This is a sticking point with W because I think she feels that if I do not acknowledge our daughter being colicky and later having ADD, I might think she is the source of the problem (which I have stated to her). I think she is sensitive to this because one counselor she took our first daughter to for ADD evaluation stated in writing that she did not see any symptoms of ADD but thought much of the child’s anxiety was due to her mother.
Now just what effect does that have on the confidence of a mother who believes she is doing everything possible for her kids? Yep, she doesn’t want to hear it. So she spent about $4k per kid to have them evaluated by a neuron-psychologist. He found that D15 did “not have an ADD bone in her body” (his words). He did think she had non-verbal learning disability, which looks similar to ADD, but he also acknowledged that W brought a lot of stress into the home and was the bigger issue for the kids. (This is one reason I wanted W to stop home schooling, obsessing on the kids, and get a job. Focusing on her job has helped a lot in some areas. It has hurt in others.)
Now that D15 is a successful, happy, functioning student, W seems to not bring up the learning disability issues anymore. She does still bring up issues 1-3 above. She also says this was abusive to her by way of point 1-3 and that whenever we argued, I was abusive because I yelled. Oddly, whatever yelling I did, I recall her yelling the same amount plus throwing a pot and an iron at me, one going through the window.
In more recent years, she is angry over the time I got angry with the kids, when I would rant at them after our fights or get onto them for not cleaning up. The biggest thorn in her side is her being thrown in jail early this year. So that’s it. Nothing new, nothing under the table. I have addressed everything, apologized for most of it (not her half of the incidents leading up to her going to jail). I did this in counseling, to what appeared to be her satisfaction and that of the counselor. Yet these excuses keep coming up. Why?
As for some of your other questions: You cannot preserve what you do not have.
The statement above therefore seems to be give yourself permission to act uncivil as long as there is no intimacy, closeness and tenderness in your marriage.
Yet, I think you would agree that you can't scream your way into intimacy, closeness and tenderness.
I don’t think my screaming is to promote intimacy, but to push her off her center of the universe mentality, to acknowledge some of my complaints and not throw daggers first.
Are you unaware of or minimizing the negative impact that you as your children's family of origin are having on your children?
Of course I am aware of this. I am concerned about the kids, but I am trying to fix that part as well as the whole relationship, which ultimately will help the kids heal. I do not know at what point it is best to drop the marriage to stop the fighting, versus keep fighting and improving the marriage but avoid D.
Whether all this is healthy for the kids or not is an open question. Sure, in the short run it is harmful and better to not have any fighting at all. But for the marriage to ever recover and the kids to ever know a stable, happy home life, I believe we must endure some hard times. I hope those times do not go on much longer. Things had been going fairly well, but I truly think the start of school has put W under a whole new cycle of stress, worry and guilt that caused this latest incident to come up. I also think her not having resolved her past issues and just stuffing her resentment has a lot to do with this. I know our counselor sees this as our number one problem right now.
Martelo,
Have you always been "high maintanance" in her eyes or is this a response to you asserting your needs and desires for the relationship and yourself?
I would say this statement does not reflect me at all. Her impression comes from two things: 1) my insistence that we increase the frequency of sex to a minimum of once a week and 2) my pursuit of her versus her avoidance of me when things come under stress. She understands that I have abandonment issues and that I need reassurance. But to her, my needs seems excessive in comparison to her needs. She has a tendency to run from a feeling of engulfment and being smothered. She “needs air.” So to her I am high maintenance.
It is also a response to my asserting my needs. I did not do this before in our marriage, though we did have sex more often then. I have also come to learn from this board how much I miss the EC with a woman. This is also smothering to her. So her statement is total BS.
Mrs. Nop, IMO... murders and rapists are NOT human... at least in the spiritual sense. These people take pleasure in hurting, humiliating and take anothers life. So I hope to God you are not comparing me to them because I claim to be 'human'. I was not speaking of human in the biological way. I was speaking of 'human' as in spiritually... I am not perfect. I have lapses of judgement. I go through life cycles like every other normal person. I have owned my own behaviour. I have beat myself up. Begged for forgiveness. Bent myself to breaking to make our marriage work. But I found that the more I did so; the further away my H got from me.
My H made his own mistakes in the past; one far more serious than what I did. And what does he tell me? That I am a bigger person than him. That he guesses that I am more forgiving than him. Bull-hockey.
Quote: If they keep bringing it up, how hard is it to say, "yes, i did xyz and I'm sorry that you were hurt by it...
I owned up to my mistake. Swore to him that it would never happen again. That our marriage, our relationship was the most important thing to me.
When it became apparent that my H was NOT going to forgive me (He D'd me) I decided I finally needed to forgive myself. I am not smug about it. I do not think by any means that it is 'gone'. But I will NOT let myself be put on the defensive about it any more.
Quote: Cobra's response to folks here now and in the past indicate a short trigger and a massive amount of rage...
I have not read all of Cobra's posts. I think that would take a week. I am responding simply to the issue of standing up for yourself in a relationship. There are all kinds of ways to stand up for yourself. I do not approve of physical abuse. Name calling. Slandering. Or making snide comments with your children in the middle.
From his earlier post though, I got the impression that he was the soother in the past. The de-accelerant that took what his W dished out without hesitation.
I ask you again. How much is one person expected to absorb? I CAN comprehend his anger... I equate it to mine. Life is a continually learning experience. Of course anger is not healthy. Striking back is not healthy or possibly even right. But noone is perfect. At least I'm not. Sometimes, for a short time, anger is all that sustains you. I do know that when I feel angry I play least in sight. But when someone pushes you... and pushes you... 'adult' is a relative term. and maybe I'm not as together as you or Karen... but damn, I'm 46 years old... I made one stupid mistake; I tripped one time in 25 years... and I get nothing. No understanding. No allowances. Nothing. When I THINK things are going well between us... he hits me upside the head with it again. And yeah. I am starting to get angry.
Karen, I shouldn't have written 'bite me'. You don't know me. You don't know my sense of humor. Sorry. As for engaging in verbal battles. Well for the last 25 years there have been far and few between. My XH has told me that when I give him attitude back now... he actually likes it. It lets him know that I don't like the way he is treating me. And like the old line '... and I'm not going to take it anymore!' As for fixing my R with him... that could have and still will only come from him. I was/am there. I was/am trying. I was/am willing to do ANYTHING. It didn't/doesn't matter.
I think you both misunderstand what I was saying to Cobra. I was simply saying that I understand ... I understand what it feels like to get walked on... I understand what it feels like to have that overwhelming desire to strike back... doesn't mean I give blanket approval of all the things he does!
I think Cobra is looking for some understanding. A pat on the shoulder, a hug that says... I KNOW HOW YOU FEEL. Not the go ahead to act like a 'd!ckhead'!
Things had been going fairly well, but I truly think the start of school has put W under a whole new cycle of stress, worry and guilt that caused this latest incident to come up.
If you truly think this, then have you asked her about her upcoming school year and how she's feeling? Try being supportive of her and see how she reacts. Ask her if you can cook her dinner to take some of the stress off. Ask if there's anything you can do to help her out. If you already cook dinner regularly, then do something else. Try something out of the ordinary of the love language you would typcially use. Just try it. Develop the nurturing side of you....to me it really sounds like that would be a 180 for you that could benefit your M on many different levels.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
RE Cobra She sees all sacrifices in a marriage as being made by the woman, for the benefit of the man, and therefore the system is oppressive. The W's are almost Twins in this area, I see.
With the exception of Hairdog, I am not sure who else here (maybe Lou to an extent) is fighting the same battle To an extent Cobra.
That is why I do what I believe I must do, try to learn as much as I can to be sure I am not taking the wrong path, and stick to my beliefs regardless of what he consensus says. I understand your point that not much happens unless you push it, but don't totally discount the other posters advice.
My life would be much easier if I had a wife closer to the “consensus.” Read some of the www.takeninhand.com articles. (No registration required.)
A Taken In Hand (TIH) relationship is a consensually male-led exclusive monogamous relationship in which the man's control is real and for the purpose of creating a deeply connected, fully engaged relationship with a white-hot sexual connection.
How the man expresses his leadership and control is an individual matter, but it is for the benefit of the relationship rather than being purely self-serving. The Taken In Hand man protects and cherishes the woman he leads. The Taken In Hand woman responds positively to her man's authority and leadership. It is not necessarily a domestic discipline relationship, though it can be.
Remember A Taken In Hand relationship has it's origin as a consensual agreement between a H and W. But I don't think Mrs. Cobra would go for that. (I am not into the spankings or other discipline activities BTW, as many others are not.)
You might not want a totally TIH R but I see some parts of a TIH R that you want.
Cobra, read a few articles from the W's POV there. The ones I read said they don't want a spineless man and maybe this has some thing in common with alpha male traits discussed on this forum.
There are posts for this web site on one of the Yahoog group forums. Interesting readings, mostly from women.
A few months ago, I began talking about my preference for Alpha men. (I had to define the term for many people, because they assumed the worst!)
Then I spoke with a handful of people about male-led relationships generally. I do not find most people open to relationships that challenge the CW, so I only speak about why I prefer a male-led relationship to a small handful of people. A female Poster
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Taken_In_Hand/ You have to register to view the posts.
I do cook most of the meals. (Last Saturday, when I spent the day in bed, W cook macaroni & cheese with hot dogs for dinner. S9 loves macaroni & cheese, but that is a typical meal or her lately. Often she does not cook vegetables, just opens a can of peaches or something. When I cook, I try to hold to the one protein, one carb, one or two veges rule.)
I have also helped her with a lot of her school work, scanning books to display on the overhead projector, copying movies and other material for class, laminating, cutting out laminations. Even the kids help out. But the need never seems to end.
I tried to suggest ways to organize her materials but that requires following whatever system we develop and it falls apart right there. (If she can’t put her keys and purse in one place each day so she can find them, how much hope is there for following anything more complicated?)
The problem I think is her OCD. She will always bite off more than she can chew. If we clean up the house and organize all her stuff, she sees an opportunity to take on new projects. Stuff starts to pile up again. She is very impatient and thinks she needs to do everything right now. She does not know how to pace out projects, or herself. She can imagine how she could do more for her class and then feels guilty if she does not do so. (She has done this exact thing with our kids.)
Seems odd that shes calling you "high maintenance" and yet you feel that in you words "But the need never seems to end." about her needs. Do you think that she is projecting her dislike of her own neediness on to your sexual needs?
I think her statement on “high maintenance” reflects how tiring it makes her to keep engaged in a relationship, in a way that I think most other people find normal. A healthy relationship means a fair amount of daily interaction, bonding, support, etc. Harley recommend 15 hours. I truly believe she has major intimacy issues. She even admitted in counseling once that she has problems getting close to people.
To her being close means being vulnerable. That is not her natural condition. It scares the h*ll out of her. She is quite comfortable behind walls (with exception of the kids of course). To be intimate and therefore vulnerable means she has to push herself to this higher level, and that is a mental drain on her. It tires her out.
When we would get into arguments early in our marriage, she would stay mad for WEEKS. Not talk, not say a word, completely ignore me like I didn’t exist. (BTW, I told her not long ago that I now realize this to be a form of verbal abuse.) But she was comfortable doing this, so it didn’t strain her. During the last few years I have pushed hard during fights to talk things through and not leave until we reached an understanding. This was a HUGE help for us to both feel validated, acknowledge, to better understand each other. And each time we did this, we came out the better for it. But each time it totally exhausted her. There was just too much emotional intensity for her. This is “high maintenance” for her.
