Just a short conversation with W this morning before leaving for work… I asked if she had thought things over, she said yes, and that we could talk this weekend. She said she sees the problem as the following:
• I am “high maintenance” • She is too busy trying to keep up with her new class • She is ADD and has problems organizing and that takes much of her time with her class • She thinks I believe I know everything regarding relationships and she does not like to be told what’s wrong with her
The fact that she could put forth a list of issues rather than just focus on the fight itself is a good sign, IMO, because it tells me she is trying to look deeper. I think she sees the fight as a symptom and not the problem itself. I did tell her during the fight that if I was upset it was for good reason and she should try to understand those reasons and what role she played in them. AS I think about her points, I see that they all dance around the problem of establishing vulnerability between us. The core problems as she sees them are because of me, her ADD or some other outside factor. None of these is the real problem, IMO. Our counselor sees this quite clearly too, has been trying to get through to W on this, but has been met with the very same resistance and types of excuses that I get.
The implication I read out of her comments today is that I am asking for too much and I am too insecure. She is once again feeling overwhelmed and engulfed. I told her that Harley recommends 15 hours per week together, to which she replied that she could not do that because of her job. I told her that Harley recommends finding a new job, but of course that fell on deaf ears.
I think she has been focusing on work to keep an escape hatch open from the marriage. This is her issue and one I discussed before. It is also an escape I want her to close. Our counselor and I believe W is desperately trying to avoid her loss issues, and all these defenses are consistent in that way. Between the counselor (the child/family counselor) and her mother (the marriage counselor), they have spent a total of 3 years of nearly continuous counseling getting to know W and myself individually and as a couple. I do not think there is much hidden that they cannot see in either of us and I do not think they are looking through any rose colored glasses.
I might add that W’s agreement to clean up her stuff is not new. I have been complaining about the mess in the house for the past FULL YEAR. She did clean a lot of it up a few months ago, taking some things up to school. But then she just starts building a new pile in those tempting open spaces again.
So everyone wants to hear what is wrong with Cobra. I’ll tell you what is wrong. I have been too weak in not enforcing stronger boundaries over the past year. I should not have allowed W to build piles of paper on the kitchen counters, baskets and piles of school supplies and materials in the dining room, the computer room, the living room and around the perimeter of our bedroom.
Perhaps I should not have concerned myself with her problems in getting started as a new teacher. Maybe I should have just thrown stuff out when it became unbearable. But I didn’t. I understand where she is coming from and I am willing to tolerate a certain transition period. She gets very upset when anyone touches her stuff and she cannot find anything. So I go along with her requests, but get angry when the mess never goes away. I get angry with myself for continuing not to stand up to her and having to endure the mess and her continually putting her focus on only her and not the family.
I expect her to put her consideration of the family first. Even though she may have to spend a lot of time on her work, I told her several times that I could accept that if she would just tell me and the kids that she is sorry for the limited time she can devote and that she at least wishes she could spend more time with the family. As it is, she comes off as feeing entitled to abandon the family to pursue her own goals. We should all make this sacrifice for her. Well, what if WE don’t like this?
I also should not have been so sensitive to her throwing her stress and anger onto me because S9 had an earache. I should not feel betrayed each time she turns on me, when I think things have been going well, and feel that all the previous buildup of good will was not honest. Those are my issues. I need to trust that she does not trust and find a way to live with that (yeah, right!) I need to ratchet down my expectations of what to expect from a marriage (yeah, right again!) I need to learn to live with less sex and intimacy (one more time!)
Lil,
I agree with your parenthetical remark that nothing will happen if there are no displays of anger. I have never known her to make changes simply because I asked for them. She might do so for the kids, but my requests are always impositions and there are always plenty of reasons why she can’t comply. The only way I have ever moved this relationship forward is by pushing very hard for what I want and what I believe the marriage needs.
Other threads have mentioned the complaints and gripes that come from the spouse as s/he complies to new requests, but in those situations I understand the spouse is complying. My W does not comply unless she HAS to comply. If it is only a matter of choice with no consequences involved, she will make the choice easiest for her. That may or may not be the same choice as what I would like or ask for. I don’t have much problem if she changes and just gripes about it. But she tends to make the change, feeling she is under duress, not complain, and let the resentment build, then hold it against me later. This is where the feeling of betrayal comes in.
The real problem is that I do not think she has ever had a concept of the married couple, in which sacrifices are made by each person for the good of the unit. That is a very vulnerable position. She absolutely cannot and will not put herself in that position. She sees all sacrifices in a marriage as being made by the woman, for the benefit of the man, and therefore the system is oppressive.
In turn, I can also see her viewpoint is influenced by her martyrdom in that she cannot bring herself to accept any benefits that might come her way from the marriage. That would make her feel beholding to me. If those benefits come from others, like her friends or family, then she can accept them without feeling that there are strings attached. Not being able to
Cally,
Again, you jump to conclusions and again, you are wrong. The TKD belt test is not a very intensive process. S9 had been going to school all week, playing with friends, taking the dog out for runs, so I thought he should not have any problem with the test (this was not a tournament as Mojo stated). I did think he might get tired, since all the kids are out of shape right now. S9 missed the belt test in May because he came down with a virus. The next test will be in November. There is a waiting period between brown belt and black. I want to keep him up with D15 and myself.
D13 is fully aware of my rule they all attend TKD until they achieve black belt, and she made the decision to drop out. So there will be consequences, though I don’t know what just yet.
As for the rest of your commentary, its just a load of BS!
GEL,
S9 did tell me later that his ear hurt before we left, but he said it did not hurt very much. Only after the bulk of the test was over, during a break while the board breaking was starting up, did her tell me his ear was starting to hurt and hurt bad. Had his ear hurt like this before, I would have delayed the test. As for your issues with me “forcing” the kids to take TKD, well, its just your issue. I have my reason for them getting their black belts. There is a lot more to it than just learning forms or doing kicks. I have discussed it at length with the counselor and she agrees that the kids should continue. You keep wanting to see this in an extreme light, but the principles I want to teach fall more in line with most parents making their kids attend church. And so in that way, it is very much worth it to me. When the kids get older, they will understand it is worth it for them. D15 is beginning to understand this now. In short, I believe in TDK classes for the kids. It is one of my values. I am sticking with it.
What Is Life,
Thank you for understanding my sitch. With the exception of Hairdog, I am not sure who else here (maybe Lou to an extent) is fighting the same battle. That is why I do what I believe I must do, try to learn as much as I can to be sure I am not taking the wrong path, and stick to my beliefs regardless of what he consensus says. My life would be much easier if I had a wife closer to the “consensus.”
Quote: If you choose to take the tack of the last poster I'm sure you can figure out where you will end up. If that is where you want to end up then go for it. Otherwise, look at what others are saying.
The point is... Karen... I am where I am by NOT STANDING UP FOR MYSELF! Let me tell you... Karen... the decision on being married or divorced is NOT up to one person. And if that person sees you as a pushover punching bag... guess what's going to happen in the end???
I am not telling Cobra to be mean and spiteful and abuse his W.(the thing with his children is a whole other issue; and Cobra knows what is right and how he should be with them... dont' you Cob? the thing is, Everyone has their bad moments but it doesn't color your whole life) BUT I am telling him to not let his W run over him like a Kenworth, then back up and do it again while he smiles nicely and tries to make her happy!
So.. bite me... Karen...
By giving back, in measure, what he dishes out; I've actually gotten his attention. It's when I go back to being Miss Nice-I'm-there-for-you that he starts rolling over me again.
Quote: By giving back, in measure, what he dishes out; I've actually gotten his attention. It's when I go back to being Miss Nice-I'm-there-for-you that he starts rolling over me again.
You questions are too black and white. The answer you want to hear is that I should want to be happy, not right, married, not divorced, to have happy kids, respect myself.
First, I cannot be happy knowing that I have to bend to my wife each time an issue comes up. There is a happy median, but to feel I am rarely if ever “right,” that my wishes do not get consideration, is to recommend that I go back to walking on eggshells. I won’t do that.
Marriage under too much control by the spouse is not a marriage. BTDT and won’t do it again. Divorce is preferable.
Children who grow up without confidence and self assuredness cannot revel in their own accomplishments, especially if they are too easily intimidated by others. This was the case a few years ago with our kids. They were too easily pushed around and shamed by the more aggressive kids. I am happy to say that I do not see this occurring any more. I believe TKD has played a major role in this. Over the past year I have backed WAY off TKD. The kids only go once a week, and often miss that for school tests or other events. But at some point they MUST take the belt test to keep moving forward, as slow as the pace may be. Your concerns are exaggerated.
I do not feel disrespect toward myself for standing up to what I feel is over-control and bullying from my wife. I do not act so aggressively unless I have been first attacked. But when attacked, I will defend myself and fight back. So while cursing may not be the best tactic, I actually feel good about standing up for myself. I have no regrets. A zinger is irrelevant for me.
I do believe that what I am doing is moving us closer to my longer term goal. It may be that this goal cannot exist between my W and I, but I do not know that. Overall, I think things have dramatically improved over the past year. I do not even see this latest fight as a step backwards, but just opening the door to the next phase of working thorough our issues. Each step in the past has required this level of confrontation to clear issues and come to a new understanding. Each time the relationship has improved because of it. Perhaps you have the wrong image of my wife in mind if you cannot see this.
At one point our first counselor was wondering if W was a borderline personality. That was an early guess and one that is wrong, but she had plenty of reason to suspect such. Since then, W has toned down and become less reactive. But incidents like S9’s earache will still set her off and she brings out those panic, survival behaviors. Then I go into fight mode as well. That seems to be the only thing to stop her and not allow her to reinforced her behavior.
Quote: It seems to me that the rules of civility within a marriage are to preserve the level of intimacy, closeness and tenderness (as I see you mentioning on your other thread). This simply does not exist in our marriage, no matter what I have tried.
You cannot preserve what you do not have.
The statement above therefore seems to be give yourself permission to act uncivil as long as there is no intimacy, closeness and tenderness in your marriage.
Yet, I think you would agree that you can't scream your way into intimacy, closeness and tenderness.
That sets up quite a quandary.
What is needed is someone to act with some amount of maturity.
Who will exemplify maturity to your children?
You have stressed the negative impact that your and your wife's family of origin have had on you.
Are you unaware of or minimizing the negative impact that you as your children's family of origin are having on your children?
Quote: She dragged up ancient history as why she couldn’t rust me. I told her that this continual deflection causes me to have little trust in her, and she needed to let go of her past grievances.
What are her past grievances?
I noticed in this thread that you point out that she brings up the past repeatedly.
Is there any minute posibility of legitimacy to her past grievances?
Quote: Those are not the only two choices available.
Life and relationships would be so much more black and white if they were. But alas... I know that they are not the only choices available and I attempt to temperate my words, deeds and reactions accordingly.
Be that as it may... I will admit that sometimes... in some moments... they are the only ones that seem available to me.
Quote: She dragged up ancient history as why she couldn’t rust me. I told her that this continual deflection causes me to have little trust in her, and she needed to let go of her past grievances.
Quote: What are her past grievances? Is there any minute posibility of legitimacy to her past grievances?
Some people used 'past grievances' as an excuse to be selfish. An excuse to abuse the W/H in the high moral ground of... you-did-me-wrong!
What happens when time passes? What should happen when the offender has shown remorse, appologized, prostrated themselves? and still... when the offended feels the need to be justified or maybe just vendictive... it is once again arrowed straight at the others heart?
How long is too long? How many accusations are enough? How many times before you get soooo tired that you want to scream to roof off the house?
Quote: Life and relationships would be so much more black and white if they were. But alas... I know that they are not the only choices available and I attempt to temperate my words, deeds and reactions accordingly.
Be that as it may... I will admit that sometimes... in some moments... they are the only ones that seem available to me.
I guess that makes me what?? Human??
Murderers and rapists are also human. I don't think they should be cut much slack, however, by excusing their behavior by declaring their humanity.
Please note, I am not comparing you to rapists and murderers. I am only comparing the logic.
I am a proponent of adults owning their own behavior. I am also a proponent of adults critiquing their own behavior and working toward adjusting it towards something more healthy.
What Cobra is doing is not healthy for him or his kids. It is even more unhealthy for him to think that he is perfectly justified in acting so. Because that means the behavior will not be addressed or adjusted.
Your response seemed to support him in his desire to give his wife tit-for-tat in an ever escalating destructive way as if that was the only alternative to laying down and taking it. Thus my response that those aren't the only two options.
