[Cobra]

I think what is at issue here is particular to my marriage. For the longest time I tried to keep the disputes down. She would escalate, make threats and ultimatums and I would back down. Little by little I felt that she came to control everything in the relationship. When we first started counseling, I learned how much I had been walking on eggshells, not just with her but also as a carryover from my family, my mother. Our counselor encouraged me to stand up for myself more, and in so doing I came to realize many of her threats were just bluffs.

But I also learned that she does not give up power readily and will not do so unless she has to. She does not see eye to eye with me since her issues cloud her view of my situation as much as my issues cloud my view of hers (though I think I do understand her FOO much better that she would like me to). What has worked over the past few years has been for me to fight back, stand my ground, call her bluff. It may not be pretty, but it works.

Yeah, I still react, and it is enmeshment. I have an issue with fairness and justice. It is not an entitlement thing as I do not care much if someone has something and I do not. But I can’t stand a feeling of injustice and betrayal. I used to measure my words very carefully, knowing full well that once something is said, it can’t ever really be retracted. She would lash out with whatever was on her mind. My tactics have changed. Subtle hints never got me anywhere. Letting her experience what I was feeling, the hurtful comments she would make to me, seemed to get through.

Some people get the hint, they are empathic. My wife can empathize with women quite well, but she is totally and completely clueless when it comes to men. She seemed to have the impression that men did not have feelings, they were all logic, and she could say whatever she felt since it never affected men. As a matter of fact, it was only within the last year that she seemed to get the message that sex is important for men to feel connected in a relationship. Just a few weeks ago, the last time we had sex, I mentioned how good she felt and how much I enjoyed that feeling. She did not realized men felt like this at all, that the only thing important to them was the final O (and so she does not understand the difference for men between sex and MB). The list can go on and on.

Now the obvious answer is why not just tell her about these things. She has always been very defensive on being told anything. I also got the strong impression that unless I made an issue of something, it really wasn’t important to me, and therefore all I was doing was trying to manipulate and control her. In other words, it’s a no win situation….very frustrating. Our counselor can finally see what I have been talking about. Sure she knows I get mad and blow up, but I think she also understands why.

So there is some conscious change in my way of dealing with W for these various reason, which I believe are the only way to further our marriage. The cursing is enmeshment, and is some of my issue. I understand that. But sometimes it is more than I can overcome.

[Lillieperl]

cobra wrote

When she breaks what I consider to be the rules of civility, along the same lines as what Lil mentioned, brands me as an unfit, uncaring parent, accuses me of being abusive, stumps any effort on my part to move forward by holding all past grievances over my head, then yeah, I feel quite good in calling her a b!tch.

This is wrong, wrong, wrong...




Wait! How did it feel when I told you you were completely wrong? Did it make you want to listen to my POV? I'm guessing not.


Fighting fire with fire never works. You are justifying your angry responses, but your reasoning is flawed. Besided, is it working? I didn't think so.

This approach is completely wrongheaded...

Are you using the "Taming of the Shrew" approach? Rent the movie with Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burton and watch it together. Talk about an Alpha Male! (Of course, you can also see this couple in action in "Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?"

[Lillieperl]

I wanted to add this: The part of you that "feels good" or even feels justified in calling your W names is NOT the part of you that you want to encourage to drive the bus. Whether she "deserves" it or not (and I'm not saying your irritation or anger is unjustified-- those are feelings, and feelings don't need to be justified), for you to treat her with disrespect is bad for YOU.

If you two agreed to create an atmosphere of civility with no name calling or DISPLAYS of anger, you might make some progress. (You also might not.) But it can't be a bad thing for both of you and your kids to live together in a climate of respect-- even if you still make each other mad. We're not talking here about feelings, but about behaviors.

If you cannot agree that cussing at your W and calling her names is behavior that must change NO MATTER HOW MAD YOU GET AT HER, then I guarantee there is NO hope for you or your R. This is a character issue for YOU, cobra. Changing this is on YOUR agenda, never mind about HER agenda. That's her business. Do YOUR work.

[heatherg]

Now the obvious answer is why not just tell her about these things. She has always been very defensive on being told anything.

I didn't see where she got defensive when you told her how good it felt to be with her. In fact, from what you relayed here, she listened and she HEARD you. She processed what you said and contributed to the exchange by telling you that she didn't realize you had feelings like that. That's not defensive is it?

So then, perhpas it's *how* you tell her, not that you tell her.

Cobra, I stopped calling my H names over a year ago. If I can do it, surely you can as well. He'll still tell me from time to time that I am stupid or crazy or something equally rude. But you know what I've found? That by changing my behavior, it makes it sound all the more horrible when he does it and I know it sounds horrible in his ears too because he does it far less than he used to.

Because of my own situation, I was particularly sensitive to the part where the kids were trying to follow the instructions their mother had given them and you proceeded to tell them they shouldn't rush around trying to avoid making her mad. All I can do is shake my head at this honestly. You completely undermined your wife's parental authority and confused their kids, which really just detracts from their trust in YOU. To the contrary, in my opinion, kids should do just that. When they are told to do something, they should get it done ASAP because they know the parents will follow through with the consequences if they don't. That is authority and that is good to have as your kids approach their teenage years.

Ok, so wife had her stuff strewn about as well. You pointed it out and she agreed to pick it up. But that should be between the two of you and in no way should impact her right to tell her children to pick up *their* things. I agree that setting a good example is important and that is something you two should discuss as adults, out of earshot of your kids. But it doesn't diminish your childrens' responsibility. You know the typical response parents give when children try to pull that card "Yeah, but you do it all the time" and the parents say "Well, when you start paying the mortgage around here then you can have some additional input into the matter. Until then, this is our house and these are our rules and you need to follow them." The thing is, in this case, your kids didn't even have to pull that card because you did it for them. Not good.

If you don't love your W and you are staying with her for the benefit of the kids, then perhaps you might want to take the focus of the M for a while and put your efforts into co parenting/family interactions.

[cally]

There was a huge red flag that went off from this comment that Cobra made.....

S13 threw a hissy fit and declared she was not going to TKD anymore. I accepted that, though there will be consequences. I took S9 to the test, which ran late to about 10:00pm. Toward the end, just before the board breaking, he complained to me that his ear was hurting. He had a cold, but was going to school all week without any problem. I was a little concerned that he would tire, but I also knew this was a very easy test and he should be OK. What I had no idea about was his ear.

Cobra's daughter stated she didn't want to go to TKD anymore. His very next sentence was...there will be consequences. Cobra states that his son had been sick all wekk but was able to go to school so why not go to TKD. Hmmm I am thinking he is maybe petrified of you to even say anything at that point. After all his sister is getting consequences for not going. I also seen where he told you during that his ear was hurting. You said you were concerned that he would tire OBVIOUSLY knowing that he was sick but taking him anyway. But then I see you mention that you woke up sick so stayed in bed all day long. To bad you don't have the same care and compassion for your children. Because this is a power struggle with you. Because your wife takes up for the kid's because she knows they don't enjoy going to this anymore. She is against the TKD and you want to always be one up on her.

I find it HORRIBLE that you involve your kid's!! There is NO EXCUSE for that. Maybe you should bring that up to your counselor. I can almost guarantee she won't agree with that and will call you out on the carpet. It seems maybe many things you are telling your counselor are only negative things about your wife. In other words she see's you through rose colored glasses because you don't admit your own wrong doings. There is NO excuse to call your wife names like you have been doing. Two wrongs never make a right. I don't hear where she called you any name. In fact in your post I can see whewre she admitted wrong doing on her part a couple times. All I see you saying is where YOU were owed an appology. My gosh you are just so full of yourself and so hell bent of being right.

Your poor innocent children are suffering. And you Cobra ARE TO BLAME! YOU are the one stooping to the lowest point ever in bringing them into the power war between you and your wife!

You need to stop worrying about her so much and work on yourself. YOUR FOO issues.

[Corri]

Here is the reason you or I or anyone else cannot help Cobra. Lil hit on it.

"The part of you that "feels good" or even feels justified in calling your W names."

At times, this is part of who Cobra is. There is nothing wrong with that, other than it being a differing opinion on how someone else might be in the same situation. Now we are judging and not accepting Cobra for who and what he IS.

When this no longer 'feels good,' to Cobra, and he recognizes that... he will be aware of his choices. Until then, he's just feeling attacked... he does not feel safe, he feels he has NO CHOICE and therefore... has no reason to BE anything else.

Corri

[cally]

Just some more things I wanted to point out....


You said....

I am probably in the same boat as those women who say they do not feel anything for their husbands.

This I find VERY interesting. Okay so you feel nothing for your wife. Why is it that you EXPECT her to provide you with sex. There is no closeness or intimacy or even love for that matter. Sleeping in the same bed with someone is a very personal thing. In her not sleeping in the same bed with you maybe shjow she doesn't feel very much or very connected with you at all. She IS entitled to what feelings she has. If I was in this kind of relationship I would never cave in to my husband to have sex with him just because he felt entitlted to it because there is a ring on my finger. Sex is so much more. Stop expecting this of her is my advice.


Then you said....

Last night she did admit to doing this

To you of course it makes no difference. But to me sounds like she was the better and bigger person to admit she may have been wrong. GREAT improvement to Mrs. C

Then you said....

She said I just wanted to fight and tried to ignore me. I told her I did not like being ignored, that I was angry because I had legitimate gripes and she needed to listen and acknowledge them.

After you had just demeaned her right to your children. You then stand there like the tyrant telling her that she can't walk away. Demanding she listen to you. Ya know she may have had a hard day. She may have been tired after a long day at work. The first thing she comes home to is a man that has undermined her authority and demeaned her to her own children. Then is the tyrant coming after her telling her she needs to listen to him bitc* her out. It sounds to me like you don't hear your wife at all. You don't care feelings she has. She is ENTITLED to not want to fight with you if she wants. She also sounds like the bigger person who maybe didn't want to do that in front of the children.

Then you said....

I told her that this continual deflection causes me to have little trust in her, and she needed to let go of her past grievances. I then asked her what SHE was going to do to resolve this problem, that I was not going to pursue her to come up with a compromise. She could decide and take some responsibility.

Past grievances? OBVIOUSLY she is having a hard time letting it go because you are still the same abusive person. She was just called a F B. She was just put down to her children by their father. Your behavior is the same. So how can she let it go and trust you?

Then you said....

Surprisingly she agreed to clean up her mess.

Once again the bigger and better Mrs. C. She seen flaws and agreed to fix it. Sounds to me like someone IS WORKING on herself. But instead she only gets a nasty comment like surprisingly she agreed. You are negative!

[Greeneyedlass]

Cobra,

I hope you take the time to really read these responses and think about them...let them soak in before you respond. There are some things from your posts that are literally SCREAMING out to those of us reading them....but you defend it.

I've brought this up to you before (without much success...and compared much of what you are doing to what my dad did with me and soccer)...I'm going to bring it up again. In your post you wrote ("Friday was another TKD belt test and since both D13 and S9 had missed the May test, I wanted them to catch up. S13 threw a hissy fit and declared she was not going to TKD anymore.")

This statement bothers me...now, if you had written that your D or S WANTED to take the test to catch up, that would have been different....but you didn't you wrote..."Friday was another TKD belt test and since both D13 and S9 had missed the May test, I wanted them to catch up."

Cobra, you had a child with a cold...and a child who simply didn't want to take the test. Your S, with a cold....wouldn't be feeling his best for a test (no matter how easy) even if he went to school all week, so he wouldn't do his best anyway. Your D well...if she doesn't want to do it, why are you forcing it? Is it for her REALLY? Or for you? You do realize YOU are not a failure if your children don't follow the same path you think they should right?

I realize some of the reactions on here almost come across as though you drug your sick son off of his death bed to go take this TKD test. I know that's not the case...he had a cold, with an ear ache. The thing that bothers me though Cobra, is his ear HAD been hurting...he didn't just suddenly get that horrible ear ache while you were out. He didn't tell you how badly it was hurting though until everything was over...and then he was crying, so it obviously hurt him quite bad.....yet he didn't tell you til it was over? Cobra, I'm going to say this as straight forward as I can....that boy endured pain in order not to disappoint you, rather than tell you it hurt. Why? Well...my guess is honestly from reading your responses to people on here...because #1 either you would tell him "it's an easy test, you can do it." or #2 he'd not want to risk disappointing you. Either way...he'd be taking that test for YOU, not for him. Is it really worth that?

GEL

[Over_and_Out]

Well hey there Cobra... I think I'm going to take a different tactic here...

For the longest time I tried to keep the disputes down. She would escalate, make threats and ultimatums and I would back down. Little by little I felt that she came to control everything in the relationship. When we first started counseling, I learned how much I had been walking on eggshells,

I empathize... I sympathize... all that... and i agree. Either way none of that (backing down, Placating, being the peace-keeper) works. And I think you are right. My H... well XH only pays attention when I fight fire with fire. Absolutely, it makes a bigger flame (I DO keep those angry-just-want-to-wound comments out of it) bigger yes, hotter, yes... but then the issue is exposed faster.

Name calling I realize is 'supposed' to be off limits. Labeling a person/your mate should not be done. So I agree with it on a higher level. BUT, IMO, you can 'label' their actions, attitude, attack. Instead of 'you're a f-ing d!ickhead'... I go for 'you're ACTING like a f-ing d!ickhead'
Then it's up to him if he keeps behaving in the prescribed way.

Like you Cobra, I am tired of getting beat up and just rolling with the punches. (Did that for a year now... yak!)It doesn't, no way, no how, work! Standing up for yourself, making your partner feel their blows snapping back at them is something they SHOULD feel. Otherwise... what? They have no respect for you. They take it all for the status quo... you roll over and take it... you accept dig after dig, emotional slap after emotional slap... and in their mind, you're at their mercy and everything as it should be.

NO. NO. NO. Grabbing that wheel and twisting it out of their hands, taking your rightful portion of control is essential to the balance of a relationship. And yeah, it would just be hunky-dory if that balance could be established with sweet-talk and compromise... (and it would also be great if french-fries and donuts were considered health food)... the problem is, some people are selfish and stubborn and UNFORGIVING... and there is NO OTHER WAY to get through to them!

Frankly, this enmeshment issue confuses me. How can you love someone, want to hang-in-there with someone and not be enmeshed with them? Wouldn't de-enmeshment disconnect you from them? Separate your emotions from them? And if that is true... how is that going to help you get through the rough-and-tumble bouts in a marriage? I mean, yeah, being enmeshed with someone opens you up for pain... but then life is pain sometimes, life is an inky darkness sometimes, but life is also joy, life is hope, and life is a light to rival the sun at times.

I say that you should react how you feel, Cobra. I say you should not have to bottle up what you want to say because it's going to 'piss her off'. As long as it's honest. as long as it isn't simply devised to injure and insult. Obviously your W doesn't feel the need to spare you. Maybe she needs to know that what's good for the goose is good for the gander??

Take this for whatever you want. But it's taken me a while to get to the point where you are. For me, I fight the urge to be the peace-maker, the soother. I have realized that since my H divorced me, all the soothing and pacifing didn't accomplish a damn thing. It only made me feel bad about myself.
As everyone on here knows, very well, we only have power over ourselves. How we react. How we relate. That is up to you alone. The other person in your R... well, their actions/behaviors... that is up to them.

[karen1]

Cobra,

I am simply ahast at this entire thread. I really encourage you to decide a few things and act accordingly.

Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?

Do you want to be married or divorced?

Do you to raise black belts or children who find their niche and really revel in their accomplishments?

Do you want to respect yourself for behaving well DESPITE difficult circumstances or simply have the temporary satisfaction of getting in a zinger or two?

Is your behavior moving you closer or further away from your long term goals for your relationships with your wife and children?

Cobra, you are in an unhealthy place right now. I can see it in your behavior with your wife, your responses to your posts, your supporting your children against your wife then insisting they comply with your agenda. I don't know if you can really hear the good people who have responded to you but I encourage you to step back, take a deep breath and try hard to listen.

If you choose to take the tack of the last poster I'm sure you can figure out where you will end up. If that is where you want to end up then go for it. Otherwise, look at what others are saying.

Very best to you,

Karen