I agree with Lil and Mojo, but wanted to focus on this:
Quote: I came into the kitchen and told S9 to be sure to speak loud, that other wise he will get blame for W’s lack of hearing.
Bad form, Cobra. That's not refusing to "lay low," that's forming an alliance with your child to help in the battle with your W. Stop it.
Cobra, I see some of my relationship's dynamics in your M. I know that one of the most important steps to take in improving the M is to end the mother/child dynamic. Yeah, she pissed you off by hanging up and by insulting your abilities as a father. It's okay to be upset with her, but don't use your anger as a rationalization of bad behavior. Get it under control (leave the room if you have to), and then come back to her and be calm and assertive.
Sounds easy, but I know it's a challenge. And yeah, I know it's easy for me to bop you for your behavior; much harder to change my own.
Keep being the best father and husband you can be, buddy.
Name-calling is absolutely out of line, for either of you. Also, involving your S in the argument is completely out of line too...("I came into the kitchen and told S9 to be sure to speak loud, that other wise he will get blame for W’s lack of hearing.") YOU NEVER INVOLVE YOUR KIDS.
I'm not even going to address her behavior, just yours...because that's what you do have control over. There is no excuse for calling her what you did...none, I don't care how pissed SHE made you...calling her a fcking bitch is going to do nothing but escalate the situation, as it did. You have absolute control over your own behavior, when you feel yourself getting to that point mentally tell yourself "STOP" or "EDIT", it works.
Do you like calling a woman a f'ing B? Does that make you feel good about who you are?
Do you think I like being called uncaring or neglectful about my kids? Do you think I like being accused of something I did not knowingly do? Do you think I like having every fault I ever did held over my head each time we have an argument? Of course this builds up a lot of resentment in me. So yeah, calling her a fcking b!tch makes me feel a h*ll of a lot better!
And don’t jump to conclusions about who does the bulk of the cussing in our house. It is her, not me.
Lil,
Sure, name calling is beyond limits, but if neither one of us wants to respect the other’s limits, then what do you do? I don’t necessarily buy the argument that you do something because you must preserve your integrity. That argument never made much sense to me. I can cuss her out if I think she deserves it and I don’t feel bad about it at all. I feel do diminution in my self esteem because of it and I am very certain she feels the same. Neither would I feel bad cussing out some slimeball who broke into my car or something like that.
That said, I CAN imagine guilt in cussing at my kids like that. I do not do it. But W does on occasion. I can also recall never wanting to cuss at my college girlfriend, even when she cheated on me. In spite of all that happened between us then, the damage from cussing her was not something I wanted between us. The same concern just does not apply with my wife.
It seems to me that the rules of civility within a marriage are to preserve the level of intimacy, closeness and tenderness (as I see you mentioning on your other thread). This simply does not exist in our marriage, no matter what I have tried. She doesn’t even sleep in our bed, using one excuse after another. I have been trying to look past all this for some time now, but with the trip to Hawaii, I realized that by the time we were ready to come home, I could have gone another month or more and not have missed her one bit. She was the farthest thing from my mind. For me, there is nothing soothing, caring or loving that comes from her, so there is nothing to miss. I am probably in the same boat as those women who say they do not feel anything for their husbands.
Mojo,
I did ask about antibiotics in the first phone call. She hung up and would not answer the second call. I think what really ticks me off is her tendency to prejudge then condemn before even knowing the facts. Last night she did admit to doing this, like it makes any difference.
HD, GEL,
Yeah, I know I shouldn’t involve the kids, but like it or not, they are involved. And I don’t like to see them cower to their mother when she acts like a bully. With S9, this is a particular sore point with me because she has repeatedly branded him as rude, disrespectful, etc, even putting him on meds to “control” his behavior. I do not see anything in him that is out of line when considering how controlling and stressful an environment he has to live in. When she tries to paint his personality as the problem, rather than her backing him into a corner, it REALLY sets my blood to boil.
As for the name calling, it is a tit-for-tat thing. She has always done the bulk of the cursing (though I will close the gap when we have arguments). At other times when she is angry or frustrated about something and I tell her that I do not want to hear her cursing, she will almost always tell me to fcuk off. She seems to think that after a little while I will get over it, but I remember things like this quite well and my cursing is partly in response to this and partly in response to her habit of branding me in some way, smiling, then walking off. So I just brand her with a name and walk off too.
I do not think the name calling really bothers her. There was a time when she would take being called a b!tch as a compliment, like a badge of honor. I think the only reason she objects now is that she has been told she should object and stand up for herself. But this “self respect” seems very hollow when she does not treat me the same. There is no way I will get such respect from her, so her demands that I respect her fall on deaf hears. Call it juvenile, I don’t care. When she starts up that one-way set up standards, calling her names is all I can do to blow off steam.
I really don’t care what it does to the relationship either. If staying with her means putting up with her crap while keeping my mouth shut, then I don’t want it.
Update Last night W came home late, as has been the case so often lately. I had cooked dinner for the kids and cleaned up the kitchen. W called to tell the kids she was on the way home. D15 started picking up the living room, telling S9 to do the same. Apparently W had taken away D15’s wireless internet adapter and D15 wanted it back to chat with her friends. If the house wasn’t clean, W was apparently not going to give it back. So D15 was onto S9 to clean up and not sabotage her. He started picking back and they got into a spat. I jumped in to stop it, but eventually came around to tell all of them they were really stressing to placate W and they should not be afraid of her. I told them that I do the same and am afraid of W getting angry, and that we should all stop directing our anger at each other.
The kids didn’t want to hear this, but then W came in so I let her know what we were arguing over and how she was stressing the kids and that she needed to back off. She went into her deflection and avoidance routine. She said I just wanted to fight and tried to ignore me. I told her I did not like being ignored, that I was angry because I had legitimate gripes and she needed to listen and acknowledge them.
She said I was abusive by calling her names. I said she started it with false accusations and prejudgments. She dragged up ancient history as why she couldn’t rust me. I told her that this continual deflection causes me to have little trust in her, and she needed to let go of her past grievances. I then asked her what SHE was going to do to resolve this problem, that I was not going to pursue her to come up with a compromise. She could decide and take some responsibility.
We jumped over to house keeping. I told her that while she was pressuring the kids to pick up, she had her school stuff strewn all over the downstairs. Earlier this summer she had complained about some spare PCs I got her for her classroom, that they looked messy stored in the dining room, should anyone come into the house. Now she has her stuff everywhere and the house looks just as messy, but since it is her school stuff, that is ok. Surprisingly she agreed to clean up her mess.
This morning on the way to work I called her about coordinating dinner, then got into a discussion which ended with me again telling her that SHE needs to find a resolution to our problem. She again brought up the excuse that she does not trust me because of our past arguing and the “abuse” she believes she took. I told her that she needs to either let that go and stop hiding behind those excuses as a reason to not move forward, or file for D.
I think this problem is really the bottom line issue for us. W prefers to stay stuck because she can avoid her major two choice dilemma – confronting her issues or filing for D. She does not seem comfortable making herself vulnerable and opening up, since this requires coming to terms with her FOO and her lingering resentment. The counselor has been pushing W to confront this and W recently decided not to see our counselor any more. She has agreed to see someone new, but I strongly suspect that as soon as that counselor gets wind of W’s issues, W will turn tail and run again. So W hangs on to her resentment, which comes out frequently. The rest of the time the relationship is limping along, I am being stonewalled, I know it and I don’t like it.
During the vacation, I gave W Stosny’s book to read. She asked last night what I got out of it and I told her the main message to me was the use of compassion to overcome anger and resentment. She said the book stirred up a lot of anger in her (and she even admitted that not all of it was due to me). But if she doesn’t want to confront her issues and lay her anger to rest, then I can’t see where we can go.
I am also becoming convinced that I cannot let this matter keep simmering under the surface. It has been there for too long and has blocked any headway for our marriage. I see little choice than to keep pressing her to get over her anger (however she see fit to do that) and stop dragging up the past. Only then can I ever get a fair “shake” and feel like she is not continually checking on me, evaluating me, judging me. I’ve walked on eggshells with her before and I’m not going back there. It is time to clear the decks.
Quote: Do you like calling a woman a f'ing B? Does that make you feel good about who you are?
Do you think I like being called uncaring or neglectful about my kids? Do you think I like being accused of something I did not knowingly do? Do you think I like having every fault I ever did held over my head each time we have an argument? Of course this builds up a lot of resentment in me. So yeah, calling her a fcking b!tch makes me feel a h*ll of a lot better!
And don’t jump to conclusions about who does the bulk of the cussing in our house. It is her, not me.
I didn't conclude anything. I asked you yes or no questions. I did not get yes or no answers. Would you like for me to proceed?
Cobra, It's not about what she deserves or whether you should meet her anger with more anger. It's about this: Do you want to be the type of person who says and does this sort of thing? AND drags your children into it?
Why do you allow your wife to set the 'tone' of YOU?
When do you take responsibility for YOUR actions in this? You are coming up with reason after reason why this was all her fault. Sorry bud, it wasn't. Yes...she overreacted to a situation, no arguments there....but YOU have control over your own behavior.
You stated several times in your post that this is tit-for-tat...why do you even play that game? Nothing will be resolved with that, nothing will get better....and no matter what...being called names hurts, even if she's proud of the title b!tch. It's one thing to consider yourself a "babe in total control fo herself"...it's quite another to have your own husband call you a fcking b!tch. Branding her with a name isn't right (just as her doing that to you isn't right)...no matter how many names she throws your way...do not participate. As you said yourself ("I really don’t care what it does to the relationship either.")....well, that's pretty evident Cobra.
No one really cares who curses more with the two of you, it doesn't matter. What you did was wrong....involving your children like that is WRONG. You are underminding your W's parental authority (I don't really care what your perspective is on doing it either) by making comments like you did in front of your children...or by making statements that they shouldn't be afraid to make her mad. No child should be put in the position you two are putting your kids in....Mom says one thing, Dad says another....whose right? What you are doing is in a sense putting your children in a verbal tug-o-war. Knock it off!
Sorry but involving kids in grown-up arguments like this ticks me off...and you are excusing why you are doing it. Your children are children....they are not adults with the understand an adult has. Sure they are intelligent children I have no doubt....but Cobra, if someone else did what you described, you'd point out their error too.
I have known some women that actually enjoy being called a b!tch. Kinda like Fergie apparently taking pleasure in "dancing like a ho" in that London Bridge song. May have something to do with domination fantasies or something. But calling someone a b!tch with the express purpose of being offensive is really just not acceptable. I'm all for being crass when the purpose is poking fun or goofing around (my W doesn't share those sentiments BTW), but there really is no way to justify saying something when the ONLY purpose is being hurtful. All it really does is diminish YOU. Does that make sense?
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
When she breaks what I consider to be the rules of civility, along the same lines as what Lil mentioned, brands me as an unfit, uncaring parent, accuses me of being abusive, stumps any effort on my part to move forward by holding all past grievances over my head, then yeah, I feel quite good in calling her a b!tch. She does everything she can to belittle and hurt me. So the name calling is just tit-for-tat. In those situations, I have no problems in attacking back. In all other situations, I do not feel good about calling her names and I do not do it.
Cobra I know you're a Schnarch disiciple so I'm puzzled by something. You know you're a good parent and you know you have good intentions. You expect your wife to reflect that back to you and when she doesn't you get angry. Isn't that enmeshment?
And from the Blackfoot perspective, tit-for-tat means she does something unpleasant to you and so you do it back to her. Doesn't that mean she's leading the R?
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