Quote: I think the something she is seeing is that OM is NEW.
I wanted to be more clear about what I was saying. I am not saying there isn't times when the OM is simply the new thing but in that case, if that's all there is to it, then it's VERY likely that it will end sooner rather than later. I think we all hope that's all it is but than shouldn't stop us from looking at our marriage and figuring out what there is we could have done differently. I don't want to seem to be saying we are in any way in competition with OM, or need to look to him as some kind or role model but I DO think that there IS something to be learned from most every aspect of these sitches, things that we can use to either gain more compassion for our spouses situation or less. Just calling him the "new" thing or the a$$hole, or our wives "crazy" doesn't really address any issues. That's all I was trying to point out.
Maybe there is nothing that could have been done, nothing to learn from the A, nothing but evil, bad feelings and rotten relationship but then again, if that's the case then there's not much to fight for, is there?
There is no doubt she is finding something in him and I am not taking what she says for granted. A lot of it has to do with him being new and him giving her undivided attention and making her feel attractive. He is funny and care free (in a sense). She has been pretty honest about her feelings and sometimes while she is telling me I may not comprehend immediately but ultimately she has been very correct.
Heck she even gave me hints of what she needs me to do to win her back and a lot of them were very DB-ish...don't make myself so available...stop the begging/pleading/sob stories...pull away and that will draw me to you...get a life...etc... Kind of gives me a new respect for her that she understood what I should be doing before I even realized what was happenning.
Last night she came home ~12 and we sat and talked a little. I think I am slowly winning her back. She still is telling me the OM is just a friend now (again)...she is definitely learning more about him and not finding good things. Said she was never considering leaving me for him...in her words he is too messed up...she kind of feels like his therapist...lot of family problems...drug problems...alcohol problems...etc... I actually think me allowing her to see him openly may be helping out our situation...the mystery/excitement of having a secret relationship is kind of gone and I think it has removed some of the attraction. She is seeing things more how they truly are. It really helps me when she comes home and tells me kind of what they talked about and that it is no longer physical etc... At least I feel she is being honest with me right now and that is a help.
I am realizing the OM is not really a huge problem right now and I really need to stop focusing any energy on him. The problem is what has been missing in our relationship. My wife was definitely on the verge of WAW and the A was just kind of her new attitude of I am going to do what I want since I have given up on my marriage. I don't think she actually wants to walk because she does feel some obligation to our S and was happy just kind of living a seperate hidden life and would have went that route for awhile or at least until she found a situation where she could make a clean break. She realizes she has a lot to lose if we D/S...life will become more difficult. I am working hard on making changes and I think a lot of them have been working to strengthen/renew our relationship...it is just going take awhile...took us awhile to get this messed up...will take awhile to get something back.
Definitely difficult sometimes...ups and downs...I do feel optimistic. I really think it is just a matter of me making the right changes and slowly making progress. MC tonight...still holding out hope that the MC will give us ideas on how to reconnect and help us make some permanent changes for the good. 180s have seemed to work well. Somehow I just need to break her attitude of you should have made these changes two years ago when I cared...I figure if I keep up the changes eventually she might start caring again and see it may be worth it. Kind of funny but I think I will see it as a positive when she starts nagging me a little...it will mean she cares about our relationship.
"Friendship is like peeing your pants: everyone can see it, but only you can feel the true warmth."
Quote: I am realizing the OM is not really a huge problem right now and I really need to stop focusing any energy on him. The problem is what has been missing in our relationship. My wife was definitely on the verge of WAW and the A was just kind of her new attitude of I am going to do what I want since I have given up on my marriage. I don't think she actually wants to walk because she does feel some obligation to our S and was happy just kind of living a separate hidden life and would have went that route for awhile or at least until she found a situation where she could make a clean break.
I think if more people realized that THIS was the state of things in their sitches and not some kind of evil "why is she/he hurting me so much" thing we would be a lot better off. I commend you on seeing this.
I think MOST of the people who turn WAS are in this place where they have given up long ago on the marriage and for whatever reason we just haven't seen that. I know my W said that, and many WAS's say that. She was aghast when I was shocked that things were as bad as she claimed they were. To her, the marriage was over long ago and it was only a matter of time until either we separated or one of us had an affair. Sure, a lot of it is justification of their actions but some of it has to ring true, especially from their perspective.
Yup - my W has said this, that had it not been for the A, we would have gone on like this for a while longer, been miserable and then ended things. I'm not sure whether the fact of the A makes things better, because it brought a lot of the emotions to the surface, or if it complicated things to the point where it's far worse than having a WAW who wasn't in an A.
The fact in my sitch is that my W wasn't aware of why she felt things weren't working. It took the A for her to realize that they really weren't and why - and the trouble is that a lot of these reasons are viewed with justification of the A as motivation, so they are unfairly weighted in the negative. I think had she not chosen to indulge herself in the A, we could have worked through our differences and made the marriage something that satisfied both of us. Now, I don't really know what we can do. I think it comes down to picking the better of several bad options.
I think that we never made the marriage what it should have been. In our case, I don't think either of us really tried, so what reason did either of us have to think we ever would? Where was the hope? Who was going to take action? Well, I think the fact that my W took action, even though it was detrimental to our M, took us off of that course. It set the stage for two people actively guiding their lives to be together rather than two people who were tossed around by events in their lives to be stuck together.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Quote: I think MOST of the people who turn WAS are in this place where they have given up long ago on the marriage and for whatever reason we just haven't seen that.
Sure, a lot of it is justification of their actions but some of it has to ring true, especially from their perspective.
Yes all very true. My W had told me she really gave up about two years ago and kind of contented herself to just live the lie and just be depressed and not expect much more from our relationship. Everything changed when she met a new group of friends in February...she started having fun again and then met OM who was fun and made her feel special. Her new plan was to have an A with OM...and just live her own life and hide it from me...basically do as she pleased and still remain married and kind of live a lie at home...the problem is I immediately sensed the difference and sensed that there was trouble and I went into beg & plead mode which pushed her stronger down her new path until I uncovered everything that was going on. This really upset her that I disrupted her new plan that she felt was going to work very well for her.
She is still in the mode of I am going to do what makes ME happy and if you do not like it too bad. I don't necessarily see this as horrible because I do want her to live her own life and find happiness...it just cannot involve sleeping around and she does have to have some respect for me eventually. I just hope to convince/demonstrate to her that we can have a good fulfilling marriage and she can still go out and have fun...and heck we can even go out together sometimes and have fun. It does not need to be all or nothing...we just need to reshape our lives so we both find them fulfilling and are satisfied. I have always been alright with her doing her own thing and having her own set of friends it is just that she can't forsake me and ignore all her other responsibilities to just focus on herself...there has to be a happy balance there somewhere...for now I guess I am satisfied cohabitating and letting her be focus on herself but eventually we need to have a better marriage if we are to last together. I feel I owe her some ME time but I will not live in a loveless marriage forever...I deserve more too...
I have hope...she seems willing to work on it...better off than many on here...we still get along pretty well and love one another...just a matter of piecing things back together differently.
Well time for lunch...she is meeting me at work with S3 to have a little family lunch...no R talk just smiles
"Friendship is like peeing your pants: everyone can see it, but only you can feel the true warmth."
Yes, I believe the anger and hurt we feel as LBS's, while understandable and valid, causes us immense problems in looking clearly at our sitch's. Our S's indeed have some basis in reality for what they have done, whether we approve of their choices or not. Something was missing. Your sitch is painfully familiar. My W stopped loving me 3 years ago and also resigned herself to whatisis until she met her "friend". Suddenly there was closeness and a togetherness she lost with me. That is fact! I can argue about all the wonderful things abour our M and how wrong she was but where does it get me? Nowhere. Maybe we should, as LBS's, try to look at our sitch's as brand new. Here is a woman I want to get to know, to impress, to make want me (just like you did when you first met her!) Of course, we must tailor our efforts and have the advantage of actually (at least hopefully) knowing more about the target of our affections now. As GH put it so well (can that man talk, I'm a convert !!!) she can walk anytime and no piece of paper, vow etc makes a damn bit of difference now. All of us must put away the pain that goes with the victim mentality as much as possible. We each had a part in getting to where we are now, end of story. Where do we go now, that's the real question. I'm glad to see you seem to have a handle on things right now. Go for it!
Last night we had our second marriage counseling session. While not as disastrous as the first...it did not turn out that well as far as being any help for our relationship. The MC refuses to work with us or see us any longer until the wife breaks off all contact with OM. So basically this is our last session with this MC. Wife absolutely refuses to lose her relationship with OM. W is adamant that OM is just a friend again and she has few friends and she refuses to lose him. I explained how I felt and that while not ideal I am willing to work in this situation as is…I feel that if we can work and strengthen our relationship OM will become less important and fade out of the picture. My W is being honest with me (as far as I know) about contact with OM. MC not buying it and probably made some good points that if OM was just a friend W would give him up to save her marriage, that it will be impossible to work on our marriage with a third party on the sideline, OM is filling emotional needs and it will be impossible for me to fill those needs when they are filled elsewhere, MC is going to be hard and that there are going to be times when we both say things that hurt each other and MC does not want W running to OM each time she gets upset (good point…like she did last week after the first session). MC did acknowledge that giving up OM is going to be hard and depressing etc…but W is having none of it.
I left the session depressed, MC was something I was pinning some hope on…I do not think I can do this alone and make a lasting impact. On the other hand W was pretty positive, she was happy with what I had to say in the session. She said she feels like we can really work on our marriage and get it back on track. She felt we made a strong break through.
Another problem is I did kind of like this MC and thought she probably was going to be a big help. We talked a little bit about DB-ing and she said her T approach is solutions based and was very familiar with MWDs work.
So what do we do now? I do not think I can do this alone and I really want to go to MC…wife is pissed about a lot of our past and thinks I was 99% of the problem in the relationship. She sees herself as the one who tried and tried and tried…I do not dare dispute this…even though I don’t necessarily agree…I think we just both have poor communication skills and some unreal expectations. But do I want to be right or save my marriage (DB)…I figure this is the role of a MC to help us both understand our failings.
Here is the new plan...wife has always said…I wish we would have gotten into MC a year ago before any of the recent problems happened. So we are going to try a different MC and probably not mention the A and just bring out all of the other problems (all my problems…lol). Pretend the affair did not even occur…this is far from ideal but if it gets us back talking and working on our marriage I am willing to go along with it. It was my idea just because I want to find someone who will work with us and I want the wife to be willing to work. The other option is to do individual counseling. Not sure what else to do? I do not want to be dishonest but I know I also need help in this situation. We still need to talk about it more…maybe we try another counselor and just lay out the whole story again and see if the new one will work within our parameters.
"Friendship is like peeing your pants: everyone can see it, but only you can feel the true warmth."
While I understand your desire to progress in your relationship and improve your marriage, it concerns me that your W refuses to end the A yet is willing to go to counseling. I think that working through your issues could in fact damage your relationship further while the OM is in the picture. His presence represents an escape hatch, and when the issues start really coming to the surface, emotions will get intense. That escape will be awefully tempting. I think it will allow your W to weigh things in your relationship against the fantasy and will prevent her from being truly committed to working on the M, and it will prevent her from being realistic in her perspective. I would trust the MC, especially since you like this counselor. Maybe you can go alone for some time.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
The MC said basically about the same as what you posted. I do realize this could be a problem. I know I am in for a rocky road during MC...wife really sees me as the one with all of the problems...I am not fighting these accusations as I do know I am responsible for a lot of the failures in the marriage...but I also understand that she has her own part in the failure...she has been very reluctant to hear any of that (I have dropped trying to fight that battle as it is a losing one without moderation). One reason I liked this MC is that I could see she could see this and was trying to set expectations and let the wife know that we both have responsibility (I guess any MC is going to do the same). Wife has admitted while she is agreeable to MC she does not feel like she has much work to do…which is probably a bad approach to the situation.
The problem with the OM is the wife no longer sees her relationship with him as an affair. She says she does not see him like that. It is very obvious to me and to the MC it is still an emotional affair…and she is not ready to give it up because it does make her feel good. W made an analogy that OM is like a drug…it makes her feel good to be around him. She told me this morning if we work on our marriage I can replace him filling those needs and be her new drug. Does not exactly sound healthy to me…”Drugs are bad mmm-kay”. Wife has definite self-esteem issues and needs constant reinforcement and attention…this is definitely one of the roots of our issues. I do not deny I have my own issues too.
So I do not know what to do? Maybe MC is a bad idea at this point…but what else can I do? I am afraid I do not have the strength and knowledge to make much difference on my own…on my own about the only thing I can do is be a door mat and agree to everything…I do not think I can live like that for very long. The positives are that at least I have the W at a point where she is willing to go to MC and work on things…she says she does feel strongly we can work things out and make things better. Our relationship this past week has been good. The only other alternative I see is to get W and myself into independent counseling…maybe this is the right approach so we each can try and get healthy on our own before working on our marriage together?
"Friendship is like peeing your pants: everyone can see it, but only you can feel the true warmth."
!!!) she can walk anytime and no piece of paper, vow etc makes a damn bit of difference now. All of us must put away the pain that goes with the victim mentality as much as possible. We each had a part in getting to where we are now, end of story. Where do we go now, that's the real question. I'm glad to see you seem to have a handle on things right now. Go for it!