Kudos to you for recognizing this pattern in yourself....NOW you can do something about it, YOU can break that cycle. YOU remember what it was like to be that child and not have your mother stick up for you, so now you can be that hero for your children. That must have been a really hard thing for you to see within yourself...but now you have, NOW you can break that cycle.
Due to my history as a child...I had a tendancy to also not stand up to people, up until oh....at least my early 30's. My father had a tendancy to take out his stress and anger on me because I was the first person he'd see each day. He'd yell and scream at me if for some reason I didn't have one of my chores done (really overreacted)....to the point that I too would flinch (really appropriate description) whenever he'd make a loud noise of any type (sneezing etc). My mother never intervened...at least not in front of me. I know now that she did talk to him privately, but she never stood up for me while it was happening.
My H and I have actually had a conversation about just this very thing. I've explained that normally I will not contradict him with our S if he is disciplining him for something, and will support him with a united front.....UNLESS, I feel he's #1 punishing our son for something he doesn't deserve, or #2 his punishment is way out of line. By that I mean, if I feel he is out of control with his actions (as I felt my father often was with his screaming at me) In those cases I will do whatever I need to do in order to defend my son.
It's so important for our children to know that we are not only their loving parents and disciplinarians...but we are their champions too.
Out of curiosity, do you think you could sit down and talk to your H about the kids reactions to his outbursts? Or have you already tried that?
Thanks Lil. I had a quick look but not enough to really tell what it was about. Lots to think about, no time to post. We are just about off for a week camping so should be fun. H has been behaving himself well since our recent bust-ups. He should be feeling pretty chilled once we are away from it all and unlike previous times when things are peaceful I will be rocking the boat this time. There's too much at stake not to.
See you when we get back.
Take care all
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
I’d like to say a word of caution about these types of sites (or books) that rate abusers. I believe there are women who are truly clueless that they are in an abusive relationship and need some serious awareness. Sometimes they need to be hit over the head with a 2x4 to get the message. I don’t know if Fran is one of these, but she certainly doesn’t seem like it.
There are other women, like my wife, who would just love to believe they are abused. These sites give them all the ammunition they need to believe this. They will read as much as they can into every little word, every action to see if it is somehow abusive. Lots of these “surveys” can be so broad as to include almost everyone at some point in his/her life. I think they are only capitalizing on fear mongering. Some are legitimate and reasonable, some are not.
The other problem I see is that by branding the male the abuser, the woman is off the hook for any of her actions, because almost anything IS justified to protect oneself against abuse. This puts the man into a no-win situation and can really increase his sense of frustration, especially if he has some legitimate complaints about his wife. The power struggle has tilted against him. She suddenly has the support of “experts” and nothing he says can help his case. The only thing he can do is to succumb and submit to her control. And that will build a mighty load of resentment. BTDT!!!
>>I was speaking ONLY of the quiz on that page, not the whole site.<<
I'm in a sitch where I often wonder if I am being abused... I'm pretty smart and not "clueless," but sometimes I wonder.
When I tell my bf that he's being mean to me (like when he bites my head off for no reason), he says talk about "being mean" is childish and I'm too sensitive. Is THAT abuse? I honestly don't know. I DON'T trust my own inner signals and perception.
Maybe if I were your W, I would perceive you as abusive. I truly don't know. Maybe another woman in my R would NOT perceive my bf as abusive. I get lost in this zone.
I don't know either. I've been on the receiving end of these accusations and once you get there, there isn't much you can do to get out. All you can do is ignore it and go about your business. It can be used as another form of control. That's the only point I was trying to make. I don't know about your sitch.
I do get your point, really. My bf and I have started going to his therapist, and the thing I told the guy I wanted to work on is that each of us (my bf and I) feel attacked by the other.
I've been reading the Course in Miracles a lot lately and one of its tenets is that to achieve peace you have to let go of "attack thoughts," which means thoughts where you attack someone else AND thoughts where you think they are attacking you. (I realize "attack" is a strong word, possibly too strong.)
I was about to write, "I guess if it's clear you're being attacked, like with a gun or something, then this doesn't apply. It only applies if you're not sure whether you're being attacked," but I'm NOT going to write that (you know what I mean...) because I'm remembering a big argument BF and I had last week where I said something that TO ME was perfectly and purely descriptive and didn't have one molecule of malice in it, and he accused me repeatedly of (metaphorically) "waving a gun at him." This was SO FAR from my experience of my side of it and so far from my intention and I went completely blank and didn't know how to react or what to say. Clearly, he wasn't lying...
I don't know what to do in a situation like that. Was I abusing him? Is he abusing me by accusing me of "attacking" him when to me I clearly was not.
What I want is to be in a situation where this sort of question doesn't come up except possibly rarely, let alone appear on the docket every day. Frankly it did NOT come up in any of my past R's the way it has in this one. Growth or regression? [We really need a roll-eyes emoticon.]
Fran. Your posts give me the impression that you are wallowing in the "I'm a victim" perspective. It is an easy trap to fall into. I would suggest checking out Dr. Laura Schlessinger. She has some great books that have helped me and my marriage. I recommend 'The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands," and especially, 'Bad Childhood, Good Life."
When I tell my bf that he's being mean to me (like when he bites my head off for no reason), he says talk about "being mean" is childish and I'm too sensitive. Is THAT abuse? I honestly don't know. I DON'T trust my own inner signals and perception.
The interesting question is, if a certain behavior by your bf toward you is classified as "abuse", how does that change your response? Is abuse something that must not be tolerated while meanness or rudeness are personality flaws that we need to learn to live with?
FWIW, I once had a marriage counselor describe abuse as anything done (verbally, physically, emotionally, whatever) with the sole purpose of hurting somebody. That may not be a perfect definition but it works for me.
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Interesting point. I would certainly agree that if something is done with the intention of hurting someone, it is definitely abuse.
If someone is abusive with the intention of hurting, then one must leave the R, IMHO. There is no redeeming feature to a R like that.
However, I don't think he intends to hurt me. I think he is ignorant of the proper way to behave and has some really bad habits. His way of snapping back at me is the way he habitually talks to his mom. She's 88 and runs a bar. The way they talk to each other is what I would call "low class." It's a habit; it's tacky. As I mentioned over on cobra's thread, when we first got together he figured he'd just talk to me the way he did to his ex and to his mom, but I said no. The "snappish" behavior is something he still does (but less of, since he started seeing this therapist a year ago).
He doesn't INTEND to hurt me, but it does hurt. We attended a workshop together a while ago... I guess it's been almost two years. And I was grappling with the same question back then, is he abusive? (Let's not even talk about what a sick puppy I am... ). The workshop leader, who saw him in action for a few days said, "He's not abusive, but it's also okay for you to say, 'I can't bear it any more.'"
You asked
Quote: if a certain behavior by your bf toward you is classified as "abuse", how does that change your response? Is abuse something that must not be tolerated while meanness or rudeness are personality flaws that we need to learn to live with?
I think the answer is yes: abuse that intends to hurt is something one must not tolerate. Meanness and rudeness are bad habits and also shouldn't be tolerated except for a finite period of time while the person LEARNS better behavior. (I don't think they're personality flaws; I think they're part of human nature and anyone is capable of them.)
Thank you for your question; it has really helped me clarify my position to myself. If I thought he was INTENTIONALLY trying to hurt me, I would absolutely be out of here in a New York minute. What I see is a man under tremendous stress-- internal and external-- who has not learned to control his resentment and anger-- and 99.9% of this anger is NOT at me, but he takes it out on me. Not consciously and intentionally, but kind of the way that when you're in a bad mood, you snap at the one nearest to you. Or if your partner messes up, you want to punish them. I see some of this in cobra. If his W does something that he perceives as mean, he feels he's justified in calling her a name. I don't agree with this.
I told my bf in front of the therapist last week, "I want you to treat me with kindness, whether you think I DESERVE it or not." Even if I AM a b!tch, which I'm not, I want kindness. Doesn't mean he can't get mad at me, but I need to feel the kindness underneath it.
Reminds me of my favorite Paul Simon song, "Honesty": "I know you see through me, but give me some tenderness beneath your honesty."
Yeah... tenderness... that's what's missing...
There has to be a basic Level of Civility.
Goodness knows, I've been understanding, tolerant, patient with his snappish behavior for four years. Why? Because I do see improvement and I see him trying. He wants to be a civilized person, but I don't think anyone has ever held him to a high standard before.
). The workshop leader, who saw him in action for a few days said, "He's not abusive, but it's also okay for you to say, 'I can't bear it any more.'"