Oh sh!t

[haphazard]

H and I seem to somehow have got ourselves to the brink of D.

Last week I was away in France with the kids, my Dad, my sister her BF and her kids. We had a nice week. H stayed home and puppy-sat and worked from his home office.

Since we’ve been home I did not really feel particularly welcome and H has been distant.

On Monday evening (which is normally a night when H will put the kids to bed for me) the kids and I were home a bit late as we had been out. I know H doesn’t like it if we are late back when it is his turn as he prefers to get the bedtime routine out of the way and get on with whatever he has planned for that evening (usually some work-related activity). So I apologised for being late and suggested we do a swap so he could do it Tuesday instead.

Tuesday (yesterday) rolls round. The kids and I do usual afternoon stuff. Afternoon turns to evening – no sign of H. At around 8 I finally call his cell-phone it goes to voicemail. I can’t be bothered leaving a message. I pack the kids off to bed.

When H gets in I am in bed. He gets into bed. I ask him “Did you forget?”. He doesn’t know what I mean so I said did you forget that we swapped nights. He denies that we swapped and says he thought I just offered to do it for him. I said “why would I do that?” He replies in deeply offended tones “yes why WOULD you do that?”. Unfortunately things started to escalate into a shouting match from there. With him slamming doors and shouting at me. (Remember he has been out drinking all evening). His gripe is that I don’t recognise how hard he works and I never help him out. My gripe is that he works that hard for his own egotistical reasons, that he has always worked that hard it has nothing to do with providing for his family he would do it whether we existed or not and I have boundaries on how far he can continue to get me to “rescue” that behaviour. After the shouting match he went outside to smoke, and I went upstairs. After a while I came back downstairs. I put it to him that I no longer want to live with a workaholic/alcoholic who organises his life around these things and has no time for his wife and children. He started shouting at me again so I went back upstairs. I heard him calling as if he thought I was still downstairs but ignored him. After a while he came back up. Didn’t say anything.

I said “Why are you still here?”
H: What do you mean?
Me: You’ve never liked me enough to want to spend any time with me. After the first couple of years together you just started spending all your time in front of the computer and acting irritable if I talked to you. Why do you continue to hang out in a house with people you don’t like.
H: Well why do you think I’m uncomfortable here?
Me: I’ve no idea, I’ve done my best to help with that, but nothing I do is good enough. At the end of the day if you don’t actually like me then that’s fine, you’re entitled to your opionion but I’ve grown up enough not to accept existing on crumbs anymore. I’ve spent a lot of effort and taken a lot of knocks to my self-esteem trying to be someone different. But I am who I am. If you don’t like that person why don’t you just admit you don’t like me and leave.
H: I am uncomfortable with someone who is so unbending, so unyieldling, someone who can never put themselves in someone else’s shoes.
Me: <silence> (there’s no point me saying that I find him exactly that way, there’s no point me denying that I am that way)
H: So that’s it then. Dumped? You’ve rejected me.
Me: I have come to the conclusion that after so many years of being rejected on a daily basis by you that I no longer wish to exist on so little. That the sorry state of my self-esteem has come about by putting up with that.
H: Where do we go from here?
Me: I don’t know, I haven’t thought that far ahead.

More silence.

H: Well before we finish can I just say something else.
Last week you were on holiday. I haven’t had a holiday in a year. You were on holiday. I stayed at home, I looked after the dog, I looked after the house, I worked from home. I had to let a few clients down. You came home exhausted after your journey so I looked after the kids that evening. The next day I looked after the kids some more. Then on Monday evening I came home with more work to do, I worked til midnight. I thought you had kindly offered to take care of the bedtime routine for me. I went out this evening for the first time in over a week to have some fun. And I get back to you whinging. I would just like some sympathy – ha! About anything.

Me: I have sympathy. I have spent a lot of sympathy on you over the years. And all the time I have picked up the pieces of your life for you while you work harder and harder and justify yourself by that fact that it is “work”. You get more and more stressed and you blame your stress on the lack of support from me. It’s like watching someone banging their head against a brick wall and crying “ow, ow, come and help me” and all these years I’ve been rescuing you with the ice-packs and the arnica etc. Now when you say I don’t have sympathy it’s because I am watching you bang your head and my unsympathetic response is of a person who is thinking well maybe if I don’t keep bringing the remedies, just maybe he will notice he’s banging his head on the wall and maybe he’ll stop.

H: OK fine, tell you what we will split everything, EVERYTHING, exactly down the middle. I will do half the childcare and half the housework and you can bring in half of the net income of this household (the almighty lucre – his trump card).
Me: No (about to point out to him the ludicrousnous of basing a so-called fair exchange on earning power. Especially in a relationship where I started off by earning way more then he and brought over £20,000 into the marriage when he brought nothing. Especially after 7 years of being SAHM and out of the workplace, having suggested to him before DS was born that we split the income earning and household responsibilities down the middle and him not even contemplating that idea).
H: Him (suddenly very angry again). NO, NO I give you a deal and all you can say is no, with you it’s just “my way or the highway” isn’t it? <storms off> shouting I’ve come up with a deal and you’ve rejected it, now you come up with something.

I came downstairs after a few minutes.

Me: Here’s the deal: You work the same hours I do and we split the household chores. (His rate of pay is in the region of £100 ($150) an hour.

H: <angry again> You know it doesn’t work like that, you know I can’t let clients down or I wouldn’t have any.

Me: If you have say 4 clients and you work a 40 hour week what happens when client number 5 comes along? Do you turn them down or do you work a 50 hour week. Then client number 6 appears and you work a 60 hour week. Tell me at what point do you say to the next client, sorry there aren’t that many hours in a week. Tell me why you can’t say that now and actually save some hours to have a life. What are you doing it for if you’ve got no life?

H: I don’t have that many clients now.

Me: I was just saying the numbers for the sake of example. What I mean is you need to cut your coat according to your cloth. You are not an infinite resource, and I am not your background resource. I am willing to be your background resource, and I am your background resource up to a point but I am drawing a line in the sand and saying enough is enough and you need to do the same thing.

H: So it’s all my fault is it (very typical refrain of H’s)

Me: All I am saying is that you need to get a grip on your life. I am not having my life trashed the way yours is by you berating me and putting me down for not handing over my life to the money god and the work ethic god.

H: But you don’t even support me – whenever I shout loud enough to get any of my needs met around here you do it ungraciously and badly and then it peters out. I yell and scream at you to do something. A few days later you start doing it with no acknowledgement that I was right and then you stop doing it.

Me: What has right or wrong got to do with it. You put it to me that you would be a happier person if I do X, Y or Z. So I start doing those things – what am I supposed to do – say: look H you were right, I am submitting to your control by doing your bidding because you know best. The very fact that I do the things you ask for, surely, is the response why does it need to come with an extra garnish of obsequiousness? And then when I do those things I get no acknowledgement for it from you. You set up some hoops for me to jump through, I jump through them and you are looking the other way, I jump a bit more – slightly less enthusiastically since you aren’t even looking and the hoops fall over so I stop jumping and go about my business. How much would you continue to do something that was getting absolutely no feedback? I want to do things that will make things better for you, but when I try I get nothing in response.

Anyway, we went to bed after that. Fell asleep with no further words.

This morning he said we needed to talk some more tonight. He's right we do.



Fran

[cinemanymph]

Fran,

Sounds like you had a sleepless night.

You take the children away on vacation, leaving him home alone and he complains that he is tired? In what crazy bizzaro parallel universe does looking after a dog preclude taking care of clients? Sounds like your H is in need of a serious attitude adjustment.

Did you and your H come to the decision for you to stay at home mutually? Subscription to the erronerous belief that SAHM sit around eating bon bons and watching Oprah all day coupled with financial blackmail can be especially destructive.

My H brings up the splitting chores/childcare/income down the middle anytime I try to discuss anything that he doesn't want to discuss. I tell him I would gladly do that and he backs down.

I avoid talking to my H when he has been drinking, as even the most innocuous of subjects can escalate into an ugly shouting match. I think it has to do with sitting around drinking and commiserating with his buddies. They all get worked into a I'm-gonna-go-home-and-show-the-little-woman-who's-boss frenzy that anything will set him off.

Maybe with the dawning his hangover, he will be properly apologetic.

[Greeneyedlass]

Fran,

Something I noticed out of your convo is that....he seemed to be looking for some validation from you that he had done something nice, giving...unselfish perhaps over the last week (staying home and watching the pets while you and the kids went on holiday)....then watching the kids so you could somewhat recoup after the holiday.....and well, you withheld that "thank you" or "attaboy". I got the impression he felt that as a slap in the face.

I know you feel like you've sympathized for years with him, and I'm sure you have. Seems to me though (and this is just my opinion) that you grouped all those years into one instance. One instance, where it appears to me...there was a genuine misunderstanding....at least, that's how I read it. The misunderstanding is a classic one between the sexes too. I know you suggested to him "lets swap nights", but I can tell you that in the past with my H...I could say the exact same thing, and he would just take it as an idea...a thought, not as a confirmation that it would happen.

I guess I just get the feeling from that convo that your H is feeling slighted by you. That...he made this magnanamous gesture in taking care of things while you and the kids had fun, and then taking care of you by watching the kids while you recouped.....and then he got in trouble for going out and having a bit of fun for himself.

I'm not even looking at the other comments of "I'm tired, and we need to split the chores etc..." I'm looking at the flat-out pleas for validation he's sending to you. We all know what it feels like to crave validation...and not receive it, that in itself can escalate situations (without the alcohol.)

Why during that conversation did you not say....thank you to him once? I mean...he even stated at one point "you don't ever recognize how hard he works"...I know you feel he does that for his own egotistical reasons, but what if....just what if, he's looking for validation from you too....that he works hard for the family as well?

I don't mean this to be harsh Fran, but in this instance....I see his point. You were unbending...when he was flat-out telling you that he needed validation. Why?

Oh and I definitely agree with Cine too...having a convo like this with someone who has been drinking....is not a good idea. It will escalate, it will not go in a good direction.

GEL

[haphazard]

he seemed to be looking for some validation from you that he had done something nice, giving...unselfish perhaps over the last week

What I typed out is an account of the conversation we had. It is not an account of what actually happens in our marriage. His claims to have done such a lot, are exactly that, just claims. I didn’t bother to argue these points with him at the time, which is why they are not reported here.

Yes he does look for validation from me and I am frankly sick and tired of giving it. He is looking for validation for staying home in peace and quiet (something he craves alot of), with the dog (who he adores) no commuting for a week and he is making a big martyr trip of it.

It's a normal part of our routine for him to look after the kids on Sundays, and the kids were tired and happy to veg out all day. In the meantime I went shopping for groceries as there was nothing in the house. Then we all went out to the for a walk in the park. After that I cooked a nice dinner - and washed it up, and put the kids to bed that evening.

He himself will acknowledge in calmer moments that his need for praise/thanks/adulation etc is over the top and far higher than that of most people. I have praised and thanked him til I'm blue in the face it goes unnoticed or it gets brushed aside or I get "alright, alright no need to lather it on - what are you trying to get from me anyway". Gel I know I did a lot of things wrong last night, but something snapped. I get zero feedback from him about whether I'm doing anything right, I get nothing but criticism and carping. His day generally consists of wait til I'm up dressed and out the house, get up, go to work, come home, barely say hello, hide in den working and drinking until bedtime. Fall into bed, unwashed with unbrushed teeth. Snore. Rinse, repeat.

What I was trying to do last night was just say to him if you want something different from me trying not doing more of the same yourself.

In the early years of our marriage I cooked him nice meals, complimented him, thanked him effusively. His response was to leave half the meal on the plate (without comment) or else complain that it wasn’t to his taste, brush off the compliments (in other words tell me I was wrong to think that).

In the meantime work mounted up, everytime he took on more work he would throw more household chores my way (this is way before we had kids and I was working too). He would go through an "extra busy" period and look to me to pick up the pieces. The extra busy period would not come to an end I would carry on doing extra domestic things, another crisis would hit and I would pick up more. And so on until eventually I was doing EVERYTHING around the house and everything around the R. We did not go out much and most evenings were spent with him "working" and me doing my own thing. I don't know why I put up with it then, that's what I meant about him not liking me all these years and me having so little self-esteem that I accepted the crumbs. When we had kids I wanted them so I would have people in the house to interact with. I've posted my story elsewhere about what happened next.

Frankly it's a crock of sh!t and I won't take it anymore. I am DONE with validating/thanking/complimenting as well as with bending and twisting myself out of shape to be perfect little wifey for him. He has never moved an inch for me.

He has a bad attitude, I remember one time he was off to the shops to get groceries. As he left the house I remembered we hadn't put coffee on the list (he drinks it, I don't). I went to the door and called to him as he was about to get in the car. He turned irritably and said "WHAT?!?" That is the attitude I have put up with from him all our marriage. Something as simple calling out to remind him to buy something he needs is seen as an intrusion and a demand on him.

My very existence is an intrusion and a demand on him and I won’t live that way any longer.


Fran

[Corri]

Fran:

I was married to a workaholic myself, so I completely empathize. My H sought all kinds of validation from me, and I understand how, after years of this... this one way direction of energy from you to them, and then the volley back from them to you with criticism and snarling... just dries up your willingness to do or say anything for them.

I think where you are getting off track (and so is your H), is comparing who does more. I think BF would call this competing. Neither one of you recognizes the other for the valuable and necessary contributions you both make to running a household and a life together.

Throw that all into the resentment tank, light a match, and you have a mini-Hiroshima all in the comfort of your backyard.

A lot of people who bury themselves in work and recreational drugs (like alcohol) are doing so to avoid life. They don't want to engage... they just want to get it right... manifested from low or nearly non-existent self-esteem.

YOU cannot fix that. You can be respectful and empathetic to their plight (if that is how you WANT to be, or not, your choice)... but understand that what he is doing is not something directed AT YOU, not something he is doing TO YOU, but from his own need to feel better about himself. I'm sure you know this.

What I am curious about is your tag line beginning this thread. Why Oh sh!t? You are finally coming to a point where you are drawing a boundary. I think you could be a bit more gentle in delivering the boundary, I think you can say 'thank you' to him for his efforts... but I also know first hand what a bottomless pit that is... so don't do it for him... do it for YOU... because, again, it is an expression of the type of person you are (or not).

I think you have reached a critical point in your M... that is going to get you out of gridlock. Spouses must understand (going both ways) that we are not bottomless pits of selfless giving. Part of respect is turning that towards yourself, and if he is a bottomless pit o' need... it is because you helped him set that up. Now you are setting some limits and he doesn't like it. Fine. If he needs to leave, let him.... you can't control that.

But the first effort in re-establishing respect within your marriage, and FOR HIM, is to first re-establish respect for yourself. You've made that first step. Good for you.

In the process, you can also be gentle with him. He's had his way for quite some time, and he isn't going to appreciate you 'gettin' all jiggy with it' now.

Corri

[chromosphere]

Fran,

I too know of the validation imbalance scenario. Just this morning as I awoke I was struck by how beautiful my W is and let out a flurry of compliments. But then my stupid mind poisoned the event a few moments later when I realized that she almost never compliments me.

It is at those times when I have to force myself to look at the larger picture. Why am I validating/complimenting her? Is it for the purpose of receiving validation back? Or is it a true expression of my feelings toward them at that moment? While most of us would want it to always be option #2, the fact remains that nearly everyone needs validation, and many of us feel particular pleasure when that validation comes from our SO. So there is a natural temptation/tendency to give validation with strings attached. The way I try to think about it is to divorce the situations. My validation of her is independant of her validation of me. It is natural for me to expect that in a loving relationship my SO will validate me. If he/she doesn't, then there is a problem. But I do not need to frame the problem as a comparison between the validation I give and receive. Lack of validation from the SO is a problem whether or not you give a lot of validation yourself.

All that being said, I am very sorry for the situation you are in. Your H does seem to be very defensive and deflecting of criticism. Getting someone like that to admit that they were wrong is very difficult and frustrating. My C has advised me that the best course of action is to be as UN-repetitive as possible. Saying something like "We have already been over this, several times. You know how I feel about it, discussing it further is pointless." While that may seem on the surface to be conflict avoidance, it really isn't because arguing further about it isn't likely to create a solution, only more bad feelings. Only when a person's position has changed on the issue does bringing it back up become potentially fruitful. I hope I am making sense.

Anyway, my heart does go out to you in this difficult time. Like Corri said, try to frame this situation as setting a boundary in your M, NOT as a precursor to D.

Best wishes
Chrome

[haphazard]

Cine:
In what crazy bizzaro parallel universe does looking after a dog preclude taking care of clients? Sounds like your H is in need of a serious attitude adjustment.
In my H's crazy bizzaro universe it is all about him martyring himself one way or another. So because the pup cries when you leave him in the house H didn't leave the house. Every other dog owner I know lets the dog get on with crying and the dog gets over it. If I point this out then it is typical of my cruel and heartless nature.

The decision for me to be SAHM was partly because we both believed in caring for our own children rather than paying others to do it. When DS was born I said to H "we can share this - lets split the childcare and the income earning 50/50" I could see he was tempted by the idea as he was entranced by his new son but he back-pedalled pretty fast so it was left to me. Of course after six or seven years out of the loop my income earning capacity has taken a nose-dive. His on the other hand has rocketed. He gets off on the fact that he can earn so much more than I can and that gives him "rights".

About 10 years ago (before kids) I left the place I was working at to go free-lance. I pretty quickly was earning more than I had been in half the hours. To me this was ideal and I didn't see any reason to work more hours. To him it was abhorrent. He grew very resentful of the fact that I had spare time. He started to insist that I either worked more and brought more money in or worked harder around the home. Since there was absolutely no inherent need for me to do either - the house was fine and so was our income - I declined to do so. I remember saying to him at the time "don't get jealous just because I've sorted my life out, you could quite easily do the same if you put your mind to it" He has a very over-developed sense of duty and strong work-ethic which just prevents him from enjoying life, and he tries to make it prevent me too. I am not lazy, far from it, I just know how to chill out when I need to and I know when enough is enough - I'm not a perfectionist. I guess I get these traits from my Dad, who has led a very enjoyable and productive life, always taken a nap in the afternoon, always taken long holidays, sabbaticals etc. He just never sweats it, and neither do I, but my H can't see life that way.

Our LL's reflect this completely, mine is QT his is AOS, he feels love by the sweat of someone's brow, by the fact that they have put themselves out (worn themselves out) for him, I feel love by the time someone is willing to spend just chilling out in my company. He spends NO time doing this. Zero. However I do spend time doing things for him, such as cooking, cleaning, paying bills etc. When I first began the DB journey we both read 5LL's and he knew instantly that QT was my LL. He was more cagey about agreeing what his were, but I guessed it was AOS and WOA. For about 2 months he agreed to come to salsa dancing classes with me as QT, everytime it was with a bad attitude until in the end I stopped forcing him to do it. He wonders why I don't do the AOS with good grace In fact I think I do do them with a pretty good attitude but like Mojo's H he thinks he can pick up on things like whether I did it with "love".

Corri:

I remember when I first started posting on SSM and described some traits of my H and you replied "Boy, do I know the animal to whom you are married". Seems like you do
You asked about the tag line to this thread. "Oh Sh!t" it's because what started out as a line drawing exercise about not disrespecting my time turned into a let's call the lawyers type exchange. It happened so quickly, and I know I made a lot of really basic mistakes. What was even sadder from my point of view was that when I said "you don't even like me" and words to that effect he made absolutely no attempt to disagree and in fact spent some time piling on more nasty comments. Funnily enough saying "you don't love me" doesn't elicit this response, however "you don't like me, and haven't liked me in years" doesn't seem to get the knee-jerk "oh yes I do" reaction. It reminded me of when I split up with long-term BF, saying I don't love you didn't do it. Saying I don't want to be your GF anymore did.

We were supposed to talk last night, we didn't really, we were both too afraid to I guess. In the end he said, there's no point saying any more it's all been said. Can you think of anything else we can do? I said "not really", he said "nor can I". Then I reminded him that a couple of months ago we were going to find counsellors, the plan had been to each come up with a short-list and for the other to vet it and come to some sort of mutual selection. Well I did my part. So I asked him if he'd found any, he said no, so I said I had and he said he would look at them.

I do have some hope I guess but the very fact that he can't even be bothered looking into the question of a C when we agreed that's what we would do is just symptomatic of his lack of attention to the problem. It's not like he doesn't know his marriage is sh!t, it's not like he hasn't said he would like to sort it out and his preference/determination is to stay together but he can't be bothered, just like he couldn't be bothered to come to salsa with me, or spend any evenings together or listen to me prattling about something without being bored and irritable. I can't MAKE him give a rat's azz.

Fran

[honeypot]

Wow, Fran, is divorce really the only option? It seems that neither of you really want a divorce but both of you are so eaten up by resentment that you are refusing to do a darn thing to stop the D train from rolling through your family.

So, neither of you like the other one. That is not surprising since your actions have deteriorated so much due to resentment. Both of you refuse to speak in the other's LL and so you both have the reality of being/feeling unloved. I would try to separate the emotion from this gut-wrenching realization and figure out where you can go from here. If divorce court is it, then I guess you will proceed with that. If this is just a horrible power play designed to get the other one to "crack" first, then QUIT IT. Take the high road and get a counselor. If it does indeed end in court anyway, at least you will have the satisfaction of knowing that he was not able to drag you down into a pit of resentment with him.

Take care,
HP

[OG_Lou]

or spend any evenings together or listen to me prattling about

prattling
verb

tr & intr
prattled, prattling
1. To chatter or utter childishly or foolishly.

Thesaurus: gossip, chat, blather, drivel, jabber, chatter, babble, gabble, patter, twitter, small talk.
noun

1. Childish or foolish chatter.

Thesaurus: talk, tattle, gossip, gibberish, drivel, chat, chatter, foolishness, maundering, nonsense, prating, gab, hot air (slang).
Derivative: prattler
noun

Etymology: 16c: from German pratelen to chatter.

Fran, your H is like me (was) in one way, overly involved in work.

BB complained that I worked too much but also said she wished she had A, B, & C very often. Your case may be different but I know more than half of me working a full-time and a part-time job was related to just spending more money than we needed to spend. To this day, BB still talks about how she wanted so and so back when.

Hearing that makes me feel disappointed/resentful because to me, what I provided was somehow less than what her standards required. I also see it as a form of entitlement on her part and that leads me to lose some respect for her. I think I did the best I could and still missed the mark. What I did working overtime was not good enough, it was not fully appreciated so why try, why did I work overtime?

Your case is different, just telling you what happened to me from one man's POV and let you decide to use what you can and maybe nothing fits your situation.

If you want your H to work less, try to get him to save 25% of what her earns and you buy less than you normally have done. With money in savings and a lower consumption rate, maybe your H would work less.

Maybe he will see his way clear to do more salsa dancing with a nest-egg/savings built up. Maybe he will see it takes less work to maintain a decent, but not expensive living standard.

I like to think of doing 75% of the work I used to do, to live 90% of the former lifestyle. That 10% increase in lifestyle uses up the extra 25% of the income, not really worth it on a cost benefit ratio.

Also, you could validate your H's accomplishments ( I read you do this) and the things he brings home or buys ( more than BB did) so he feels he is reaching a mark of being a good provider.

I often felt I was inadequate in BB's eyes because some of out peers had more and did more than we did. I don't know your situation, but being competitive within the M and being competitive with friends and neighbors, both can be problems that add to your H's sense of high work ethic.

BTW, anyone that is self-employed is in competition with other people that do similar work. I hear salaried and hourly people talk about what days they have off and what benefits are due to them. I hear business owners and self-employed people talk about expenses, getting jobs done, looking for new work to come in, and paying bills. I also listen to commissioned people talking about percentages of the gross and meeting sales quotas. Same type of work, different perspectives.


BB used the D word so often when we used to argue. I know how it feels. I was the one who said no to that line of thinking.

I see where you said/think he didn't love you.
Funnily enough saying "you don't love me" doesn't elicit this response, however "you don't like me, and haven't liked me in years" doesn't seem to get the knee-jerk "oh yes I do" reaction. It reminded me of when I split up with long-term BF, saying I don't love you didn't do it. Saying I don't want to be your GF anymore did.
I did used to give the knee-jerk "yes I do" but maybe your H is like me in some ways.

I had it rough for a long time and honestly can say actions were more important than feelings. so when you said to your Xbf he didn't love you and it didn't register, I can put myself in his place and say "so what does that look like" and not totally know what to do. When you said you didn't want to be his gf, he knew what that looked like.

Back to your H and his work ethic, lack of being able to chill out.

To me, some women/men have a Santa Clause/good fortune view of life, if we are good, good things will happen. I guess those people are the glass is half full folks.

Other people see no Santa Clause and and plan for some parts of their life to go bad by over working in other areas of their life to build a reserve, to make up for unforeseen short-falls or disasters. Maybe those folks are the glass is half people.

Some people switch between half full and half empty.

I took a break to walk the dogs with BB. She walks the dogs because it is cooler (not 98f, weather conditions on 24 Aug. 2006, 9:55 am 66f Winds 10 MPH, 10 mile visibility). To BB the dogs need exercise because they have been couch potatoes when it was hotter and the dogs got out of condition and gained weight.

I walk the dogs for our benefit physically and to improve our marital relationship. Just different ways of looking at a situation, like why does your H work more than you feel is necessary.

when I said "you don't even like me"
To tie that in to the dogs, BB thinks I don't like the dogs sometimes and accuses me of being mean to the dogs, none of it is true BTW. Truth is I like them but am not going to treat them like small children that have birthday parties and feelings like humans have. Like you, if the dogs cry when I leave the house, tough. They will get over it and be happy when I return. Dogs are not children, or are they something that can be neglected, no way. Maybe your H's staying home to care for the dogs while you were gone shows he has a soft spot in his heart but does not know how to show it towards you.

I suspect your H's view of liking you is different than yours of liking him. It doesn't mean he does not like/love you. It might have been better to ask him to think of one or two things he likes/loves about you at times like these. I think you would have made the R stronger by doing that.

Yes, I have some of your H's traits, so I shared some of "MY" thoughts, for what they are worth. I am not placing any blame on you for the recent situation, just suggesting you consider a few things and maybe some reasons why your H does what he does.

With most of your posts I agree with your POV. {{{{{Fran}}}}}


Lou

[haphazard]

Thanks Chrome, HP and OG_Lou for your messages. I will reply soon. Just need to mull things over.

Wake up call.

Last night H and I had another fight. Or rather I kept my cool and H fought. This morning he apologised, said he was out of order and said that I had been being nice to him all evening and didn’t deserve it.

On the way to work I had a sudden light-bulb moment. This is the exact same dynamic as wife-beaters. They get drunk, they beat their wives then the next day they apologise sincerely. The wife puts up with it believing he will reform.

My childhood was spent in an emotionally abusive environment. My Dad also hit us, mostly my brother and sister but me too. I can remember flinching in my seat if he were to rustle his newspaper or get up to go pee etc, essentially having no idea where the next belligerent attack would come from.

So I have been desensitized to emotional abuse.

I had a sudden revelation this morning, on occasion H has been emotionally abusive to the children. He will suddenly fly into a rage and yell at them for no particular reason. He tends to be extremely tolerant of them, taking on his usual martyred look if they are testing his patience and then will suddenly snap. They have come to me in tears of bewilderment when he does this. The revelation was this: I do not intervene. I do not intervene because I know it will cause him to flare up even more. Because I know I will be on the receiving end of his abuse. This is absolutely no different to the wife that does not intervene when her H is beating the kids because she knows if she does she will get a beating.



Fran