Quote: Hmmm, not sure what the take away from your post is. Does it mean that most women are only interested in dating guys that are looking for "the one"?
Women are more likely to be looking for "the one," when they are dating. Men are more likely than women to approach dating casually with little to no expectations. OR with the expectation that it's just for now.
That's just my experience. Not that I've had a lot.
Quote: can someone thousands of miles away be considered "in the wings"
"In the wings" probably wasn't the right term. What I meant to say was that you have your hopes in your xw right now. That takes a lot of seriousness away from the dating thing. Not saying that's right or wrong, one way or the other. It actually may be a nice benefit, since taking dating seriously probably just leads to needless and unproductive heartache.
I have been thinking of going out with a woman I recently met, who says she knows lots of men I could spend time with. The thought of going out like this would have stressed me out before. I would have felt pressured to make a good impression and take everything personally. But, since I'm sure that H is wanting to give it a go, I feel no "need" to hit it off with any men I happened to meet in a social setting. Ironically, this probably makes any interaction I have with the opposite sex in a social setting, much more pleasant (for everyone involved). Such a frustrating catch-22. I wish I could pay someone to install some social/dating skills in my brain somewhere.
*Yes I know the prospect of me dating right now is weird. Maybe I'll go into it on my thread sometime.
Quote: Isn't there always someone in the wings i.e. always more fish in the sea?
Perhaps it's just the difference between how a male vs. female mind works, or how a self-confident vs. not self-confident person thinks...but there's a big difference between "more fish in the sea" and the real or hoped-for presence of another person. You can't focus on the unknown fish in the sea like you can on a person you know and have history or prospects with. Other fish in the sea don't take the pressure or seriousness away from dating. At least not for me.
Quote: You're right that I don't really have a lot wrapped up in the women I date but it may be fearing the burn more than anything so not putting the heart out there.
This is true.
Quote: Do see that may come off as not interested which is a lot of what I'm looking for (a gal that seems interested in me) when I'm out on a date.
Looking uninterested is a sure way to repel interest. This has been my life-long hang up. I'd rather look uninterested in a guy, thereby rejecting him before he can reject my. Aaaaaaahhhhh yes, my coping skills have taken me far in this life.
Quote: So your post has resulted in some deep thoughts and progress, thank you very much
Quote: a definition for what is "being controlling"
I could use a definition to being controlling in an R as well. I did a quick search on the Internet for some standard therapist type definition, but I don't know if there's one out there. If someone knows a three sentence or less definition of "controlling behavior" please post!
Quote: Don't women see a man that "takes charge" as attractive? But it seems when it suits a WAW or another then the label "you're trying to control me" comes out? What is the difference/where is the line drawn?
A very good point. All the R books I've skimmed through lately refer to this phenomenon. A woman often falls in love with a man who "takes charge." But after the in-love hormones have burned themselves out, that "take charge" atitude now comes off as controling behavior.
The qualities we fall in love with in our new spouse turn into the qualities we can't stand. I loved that my H was gentle and quiet. Now I hate that he is passive and refuses to deal with problems. He loved that I was independent and had an opinion of my own. Now he hates that I don't always put house and family first and disagree with him (on almost everything). Blah, blah, blah...
Controlling can mean all kinds of things. In many cases, I think if you could meet your partner's emotional needs their controlling behavior (what ever it is) would diminish. Because we often try to control people to force them to meet our needs. We try to control people because we are insecure about their love for us. So we try to force them to prove that they love us.
Like Imago therapy, where we subconsciously pick out a partner who has the same negative traits as a parent. We see them as a surogate parent, then try to heal our childhood wounds by forcing our surogate parent to love us in the way our parent didn't.
Deep, deep, all very deep. So when a partner is trying to control us they are just showing symptoms of having unmet emotional needs. So if my H tries to control me by saying I can not use childcare or pursue my writing interests, perhaps that is just a symptom of an unmet emotional need. Perhaps once I can fill that need, his controling behavior will diminish and our career/family situation will be more workeable. Of course, H listed his #1 need as sexual fulfillment, so it's not suprising that he may still be displaying symptoms of unmet needs (and it's probably a good sign that he's not fulfilling his needs elsewhere!).
Well, that's a nice little epiphany for me! Thanks very much for the space on your thread. I'll cancel that invoice for $69.95. We're even.
p.s. don't know if you got anything at all out of this. I've come down with posters' fatigue again so I have to sign off.
Quote: When she calls now, I'll make a gesture like sending her something, a card, a gift, flowers, whatever and thank her for calling/caring and does that mean she wants to give us a try.
I don't like the idea and it seems passive-aggressive. So, divorced people can't talk? If I talk to my first XW she could send me a gift, say "thanks for caring", and "does this mean you want to try again?"?
You are someone that she has confided in and shared many things with. That doesn't just die out, but it does eventually. The WAS moves on with their life and the calls stop. If you don't want her calling you or you can't be friends, then I think you need to be honest with her and tell her that you don't want to be friends (although asking her on a cruise, letting her share your house, etc says otherwise).
I asked that controlling question once also. Not sure how far that extends. Disagreements/differences of opinion on how things should go will always occur. I think in the beginning, the wife goes along with things she doesn't necessarily agree with, but then bears a grudge. And you would do the same if you always agreed. There has to be a compromise at times to avoid someone being controlling.
Me
In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. Abraham Lincoln
It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. Theodore Roosevelt
Ok, you'l need to fill me in on what "passive-aggressive" is, have heard the term but unfamiliar with what it means. All DBing seems either controlling or alternative. At this point, am finally focusing on me and what I want/need. I have been honest and told xw that I don't want her calling, can't be friends a few times but what she wants is to be friends so she continues to call. It's like she saying, that's nice to hear what you want but this is what I want so this is what I'll do. The invite on the cruise or in the house or sending her stuff is not a mixed message about wanting to be her friend but for us to be more than friends. Her actions have indicated she may be willing to go in that direction but is hesitant. If she's not why wouldn't she just stop communication? I've never been divorced before, maybe I need to read up on it more but what is the norm? Just leave each other alone or still be firends but just without the "benefits"? To me it just seems to make sense to just leave each other alone and if one gets to the point that they really miss the other and it's mutual to try things again. Is there a flaw it that logic?
I do not want to do things her way anymore and let her have both om & me and wait until things slowly die out or when she is ready to cut me out completely. She ended things abruplty by leaving us in the lurch and there are alot of unresolved "baggage" between us. I mean an e-mail after 23 years marriage, how crappy is that? What I want is either no contact or an acknowledgement to try resolving issues or trying at us. Have come to realize that it would be very difficult to get anywhere while we are thousands of miles apart so looking at the likely hood of going back.
Good input on "controlling" from both of you but still unclear on when "controlling" becomes a negative issue. It seems like a natural give and take thing in any relationship but when things go south, that card tends to get played a lot more. I personally think of it as a diversion played by those involved in an affair unless there are real buttheads out ther trying to tell their partner how they have to live their life/ giving orders which is not something I do. Friday after a few seems like it can really get me rattling on but thank's for the the inputs and have a good weekend.
Opti, will get to your comments when my heads not so fuzzy, like you put, deep stuff. RonJon
Passive aggressive is when someone may be in a conversation or arguement shutdown or say it is over. If the arguement is abusive, that is different. It also could be not talking to someone or the "silent treatment". Thats is very passive agressive. Doing something that somebody has asked when you have no real reason not to abide by it is passive agressive.
Franck gave me some great advice once. Don't say we can't be friends. Just say we are not going to be friends. We will be friendly, but not friends.
One last thing, you carry too much resentment. You may think she can't read it, but she can. You are not ready to date or get back together until you have done something with the resentment and pain. GAL and work on that. When you can think about you wife and not feel the hurt and pain, maybe you will be ready for reconciliation and/or another relationship. Your still angry man- but you still the man.
Update on me- Bought a new house and have avoided her (passive agressive by the way). But also, the best way for me to heal. When she is around me, she is chatty Cathy. I was told that she is still seeking my approval and friendship because of our long history. I am differnet than you. I realized that my friends would not treat me like she does. I am taking the kids as much as I can. Life is really good, not great but getting there.
Jeff
Hillcountry
[color:"red"]I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% of how I react to it."
JSD, Thanks for the clarification and the web-link. The more I try to analyze this stuff the less sense it makes. Reading through, don't see where sending her stuff when she calls to either get her to either go away or bring her closer could be considered passive-aggressive so proceeding with the plan.
Really, seems like almost anything can be interpreted as abusive, controlling, or passive-aggressive. The positive and the negative behavior terms are like two sides to a coin. For me it to simplify for myself, it comes down to motivation or intent. If someone is doing something to be mean then that's wrong, if they are trying to do something to improve things, then its not wrong.
The sublty of the "friends" logic still escapes me but will ponder on it more. The best suited/most correct statement may be a short "We are not friends" rather than the "We can't be friends" which can sound conditional or "We are not going to be friends".
Over 23 years of marriage there were plenty of opportunities for resentment to build up but I think she still carries way more than me. Again with the women radar that can read what men think, can we ever stand a chance:^)? You know, I think that the resentment and pain for both of us can probably best be resolved by the two of us discussing issues together to closure. It is a great challenge to try and not get angry when thinking that the W had an A w/om that wormed his way into my family as a "friend" then broke up the M and the family and she's still with him and only sees him as good. Getting better at meeting that challenge bit by bit daily. Everyone that is my age (mid-40s) has picked up baggage along the way and had to figure out how to deal with it. Think I've come a tremendously long way in the past year and a half.
Congratulations on the new house, looking forward myself to the day when I can get another and settle down finally. With you in that avoidance is the best way to heal. So the talking and me being nice to her on the phone is a way I'm showing her approval of her actions? Interesting concept I'd not considered. Don't know how yours treats you but the whole idea of friends after a long marriage does not even fit any analogies for me anymore, can't compare. Good plan, to take the kids as much as you can, I got mine full time which, while sometimes challenging, is the most rewarding thing to happen. Thanks for the post Jeff, life is indeed really good and maybe great is around the corner. RonJon "Upset-man, probably, angry-man, not"
Maybe passive-aggressive is the wrong term for it, but it doesn't matter what you call it, it really isn't conducive to the relationship. I'm willing to bet that your plan will not bring you closer to your goal. She acts in a certain way, in this case continues to call and trying to be friends. You don't want her to just be friends with you. You want more. When she doesn't provide you with more, you get upset and come up with a sarcastic way of handling it, ala "I judge from your actions that you want to be more than friends" when she had no such intentions.
She isn't going to kick OM to the curb or try again with you just because that's your desire. She isn't going to try again with you just because if she doesn't you won't talk to her anymore. She is only going to do that when she makes the choice to. In the meantime, what are you going to do, regardless of her? What is it that you plan to do with this relationship as it stands now (and may always stand...just two people with 20+ years of history together that talk on the phone)?
I think you need to really think about whether what you really want is to never hear from her again. Is that what you would prefer over the contact you have now? If you truly can't be friends then I suggest being more direct, like, "this is really hard for me, after all our years together, to just talk as friends while you are with another man. I would really appreciate it if you would just confine yourself to talking to the kids. Calling me is sending mixed messages that I'd prefer not receiving."
In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. Abraham Lincoln
It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. Theodore Roosevelt
Got an e-mail from xw today about how she met somebody where we used to live long ago that worked with me. It had questions for prompted replies and at the end a request to call and talk this weekend. It's clear now to me that I fill some small but critical need for her with these phone conversations. We both want our needs (mine: to either try us or not have contact, hers: to be just friends) met but they are in conflict so how to resolve? I still think that sending her something is a good gesture to extend the olive branch. A good aspect of solultion based short-term process.
There is no neagtivity involved here but am beginning to see your points of view, passive-aggresive behavior sounds like a new-age term for being stubborn. And agree that ultimatums like "come back or I won't talk to you" are totally worthless and the type of things that get people into these sorts of problems, not out of. At this point I'm prepared to move in either direction (try us or no contact) without qualms but not at a stage where I can just "hang on/around as a friend". Hope that makes better sense. There is no sarcasm in sending a package that I can see. Realize that while we remain at geographically separated residences there will remain a degree of limbo i.e. can't really get back together.
Some people may be able to view their past as "just two people with 20+ years of history" to make them feel better about how things went but I'm not at that place yet and maybe never will be. Can't trivialize all those years, the memories of our kids being born, etc. that would basically trivialize entire adult life. Like saying about another person, "she was just my mom, just some lady that raised me" would be for the childhood years.
I've tried, but talking on the phone is not one of my strong points, not on for long and not for important things, need to be in person for those. Also raised to not talk about what's hard for me, or I'm hurting or showing other weaknesses and things like that.
Thanks for the input, always good to have a sounding board to reflect and contemplate on things I might not otherwise had considered. Now need to get back to thinking about whether to reply to this e-mail and if so what to say. Have a good day all! RJ
I used to often think that it would've been nice if my H and I had gone through this MLC cr*p at the same time, then we both could've had A's, rewrote our past, etc. But, it never works out that way, 'eh!?
I think you are doing awesome, Ron. Don't over-analyse too much though. I have a tendency to do that. If you don't want to be friends, then don't be. You owe your XW nothing. Sure, it's good to be on friendly terms, for the sake of the kids, but friendship is another thing. I wonder if it can happen after a breakup of a long M. I'm not so sure.
Also, try not to see things in gender terms. Women are usually better communicators, but seeing all these WAW's makes me wonder at generalities. Obviously, these women were not very good at communicating their problems to their shocked and surprised H's, 'eh. So, it's not necessarily true that women would build up more resentments. One would generally assume that women are the naggers, but in my case, that's not so ... my H is a big nag, and if I don't respond to the nagging, he gets resentful (at least, he used to, but he is improving). We are all individuals in our own right.
I guess the thing is to remember the good times in the past, and move forward into the future and make new memories with other people, and sitches. Even though I am in piecing, I still wonder at where I would've been if I had gone through with the D. I wonder if I did the right thing staying. I think about what I would do, if presented with another A, and I know I will be okay.
Anyway, I am just waffling on here, and not sure if I've given you any real advice, just encouragement to move forward, and I think you are doing so, with a great positive attitude. Stay that course, and who knows what exciting things the future holds.
Me:57 H:52 M:28 Got another lawyer last year and filed. D35,S/D twins28,D22 EA4/04 End? Who knows? "Life is like a mirror. Smile at it and it smiles back at you." — Peace Pilgrim
BeingMe, Good to hear from you. It's just in my nature to overanalyze things at times, think its the scientist in me. Have definitely decided not to be friends, just would be too weird if nothing else (and I could probably think of a dozen more reasons) and have come to realize that trying to convice xw of that fact only causes me aggrivation so let he think what she wants.
Will work on cutting back on the generalities of the genders. Grew up with my dad and two brothers, even cousins were all boys. The WAW phenomenom doesn't change the women as communicators that I can see, they just go quiet when they are building their bomb, apparently thinking and watching to reinforce their thoughts. Can see where men would have just as many resentments as women.
Most of the stuff I do from here on out in regards to xw are things that work toward closure for me, not things for her. Things happened so fast, first panic mode, then denial, a bunch of other phases. Still think that it can't really be over until we both say so and am slowly working toward that point.
Who's to say whether the path we each are on is the "right" one or not. Good luck with your piecing, things will work out well.
Good sometime to communicate without any advice given and encouragement is always welcome. Will get over to check your thread and post again here if anything sigficant occurs.
