I hear your pain and frustration and I also fall into your predicament from time to time. In your comments I hear some tone of resignation and acceptance of getting less than you want, but most importantly, I think, is your acceptance about being “trapped.” I think your wife knows of your frustration, your unhappiness, but as long as she knows you feel trapped and that you will not do anything about it, I think she will continue to exploit the situation.
To me, the only way out of this mess, and to stay happily in the marriage, is to decide that you are ready and willing to leave the marriage. Deciding that you have reached the end of your rope, are now looking out for your best interests, and are willing to leave in order to find someone else is the only signal that I think your wife will heed. Anything less is just noise and you have conditioned her to tolerate a lot of noise with no consequence. For her to take your needs seriously means you must be serious about change. That means you must come to the point that you are ready to divorce.
Many other couples do not need to reach such a critical level for the spouse to make necessary changes. Your marriage (and mine) does not seem to be like that. I think CeMar is in a similar boat. How long has he been on this board complaining about the same thing without his marriage moving forward one inch? I think his wife knows that he will not leave, will not set and follow through on consequences that are of a concern to her, and therefore will not change. She doesn’t have to, and as the women one this board have figured out, it doesn’t seem that he is giving her any positive incentive to change either.
So I don’t think you have reach “critical mass” or a stage of capitulation yet. Until you do, I think you will remain stuck. So in your interest, I think you should consider whether you really want to sentence yourself to years of being stuck in limbo, avoiding a decision that in so doing could eventually make you very bitter and lessen your chances of finding someone else in the future. Possibly it is better to realistically re-evaluate your situation for what it is, looking only where you are and what the future holds (throwing out the emotional chains that hold you to the past) if you stay on your current path.
So ironically, by deciding that your only happiness can be found by leaving the marriage, I think you will have the best chance to save your marriage.
Hey Cobra (are you back from vacation, or at some internet cafe, or on your Blackberry?)
Your observation may be correct. I have as much as told my wife (usually in the midst of an argument) that the only reason I am still married to her is because of DD5.
What you suggest may indeed be the only way to "rattle the cage" enough to get her attention.
The chance that she'd just agree to cut and run, though, seems more likely to me than her actually putting in the effort to see that my needs or views might be valid.
Yeah, it scares me too HD. Especially because, for whatever reasons, you and I aren't ready to go. That doesn't give us much leverage. And, unfortunately, you can't fake it. At least not if your W is as intuitive as my H is stubborn.
I spent many months trying to force myself to come to terms with forcing myself to be ready to go. It gave me nothing but heartache and emotional turmoil to try to put myself in that position falsely. My heart is not ready to abandon my ideas of how my future was 'supposed' to be.
I am reading Dark Nights of the Soul by Thomas Moore. It's a great book. I am viewing my situation differently since I began reading it. If your reading list isn't too long, you might want to pick it up.
Take care.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
I’m back from vacation, and playing catchup now. Had a great time!
The chance that she'd just agree to cut and run, though, seems more likely to me than her actually putting in the effort to see that my needs or views might be valid.
And that really scares the sh!t out of me.
And this is why she has her hooks in you and can dance you around like a puppet. BUT, how do you know this is true? How much is this perception is due to some true level of “cut & run” within her and how much is due to your fear of being abandoned? Personally I see your wife as a lot like mine. All her shouting, threats, ultimatums, jumping to conclusions, are all just ways to intimidate and exert control. If you call her bluff, she will no longer be able to use these actions against you.
For me, there was (and is) a certain amount of fear to moving into the dominant, alpha male position, even though I think it is something I want and need. It would be so much more comforting, secure and easy to have someone else just take care of me. It’s just the secondary affects I don’t like (sort of like my teenage daughters who want more freedoms but not the responsibilities that come with them).
But setting boundaries and controlling the expression of rude/abusive/controlling behavior in your spouse means that you MUST accept a certain level of independence and aloneness as a lifestyle. Otherwise you can too easily become dependent and fall right back into the helpless position you find yourself in.
It is not easy to come to this realization. In my opinion, you can either wait until you get so pissed and resentful that you welcome a divorce (which I think is actually the easier thing to do since you do not need to face your fears – they are masked over by the anger) or you can take the tougher road of becoming independent (detaching) while facing your abandonment fears as you move through each step. Staying stuck is just denial and wishful thinking. Nothing is going to change. CeMar can testify to that.
HD....I find it interesting that you say you don't have a lot of free time. Because when you finally put yourself first I think you will find you have plenty of free time. Why is it that you don't have free time. Is it because you have to cook and do all the cleaning chores your wife has dished out? Ort is it because you take your daughter to her activities and have to care for her while your wife does what she wants. Correct me if I am wrong but I think it was your wife who decided to join a marathon so has been training?? If so she found time for herself and just let you know you would have to pick up slack. That is what you need to do. Find time for yourself and be happy. Go out with some friends. You are one person who really needs to GAL. You deserve it. Let her sit and wonder what has happened to you or wonder where you are or what you are doing. You seem positively scared to death of your wife. Okay you don't have to say the D word if it scares you because your afraid of what she may do. Just turn yourself around and let her wonder. In the mean time you will be much happier instead of the prison you are in walking on egg shells everyday.
My husband has found time for himself and he works long hours. My husband has changed a lot in the course of a year. I tell you I respect him a whole lot more then the guy who walked on shells trying not to piss me off. Women need men to be dominant.
I am well aware of your moral framework. My posting that statement was not a judgement in anyway, dear man. But you underscore my point. You HAVE defined your moral framework, and that is good. Now within that... dare to put yourself first... to find what pleasure you can within what you have defined... and when I say pleasure, that doesn't necessarily mean physical... but it can...
As an example... I would encourage you to get a 30 minute message once a week. NADave swears by them.
That's just an example. So many of us get used to putting others first, always... that we lose sight of who we are, what we like... what it means to be happy being us. It is NOT selfish to give yourself 15 minutes a day. All yours... then you gradually increase that... amazing things begin to happen when you 'get' happy, for no other reason than you just enjoy being and expressing YOU.
Heather: Thanks for the book recommendation...it's on the list, just don't know when I'll get to it. And yes, I see some similarities between our situations. I find myself going back and forth with yours--one minute, wanting to bop your H and tell him to get a clue, the next minute, wanting you to get out the situation. It's just so hard, especially when kids are involved.
Cobra: I actually mentioned your message to my C yesterday. His take was that W would either cut and run, or she would never trust me again because I had abandoned her (self-fulfilling prophecy). I agree with him. Facing the choices of D or living with her trusting me less than she already does, well, that's not going to work for me. I appreciate your view, but still think that there is a chance for her to "get it" without me filing, or presenting her with papers, or some other concrete step.
Corri: you said "As an example... I would encourage you to get a 30 minute message once a week." Hey, she gives me a 30 minute message several times a week. Sure, I call them "lectures," but... I appreciate the suggestion for a massage, but two things come to mind: First, cost. I don't have room in my budget for this...and I'm not willing to make room for it because of the second issue, which is, massages just make me sad. I don't know if you recall the last time I had a massage, but it was several years ago and my in-laws (W's sister) gave each of us a gift cert for a massage. I ended up going back to my car and bawling, because I hadn't been touched like that for so long. No...massages are not for me. I agree, however, that I need to put myself first from time to time.
Cally: I can make time. You're right. My day is really full, though. Up at 5, at work by 6:30, pick up daughter at 4, home by 4:30, and I am there with just the two of us (except on Thursdays and Fridays when my other kids are with me) until W comes home from work at 7pm. But my W also has no problem making time for herself. She's training for this charity walk, she has a Buddhism class one night a week.
I was looking at some community classes yesterday. Several of them appeal to me, so maybe I'll give that a try. I need to do something, that is clear.
How about finding an open mic night at one of the comedy clubs around town (if you have one)...you'd be wonderful at that, and think of all the material you could use from your own life!!
I sing publicly (and no one throws stones at me, haven't noticed any ears bleeding either)...because it does give me satisfaction, it makes ME feel good inside to have people enjoy what I'm doing...and receive that positive energy. For me it definitely helps to go do this when I'm feeling down, or lacking something in my R (you know during those really down times)...it's my way to fill that void for a time and build my energy levels back up. Of course I feel I need to qualify that statement....it's my time on stage and the energy from the audience that fills the void, it's not the attention from other people....that is something I keep a firm boundary on. My wedding ring is ALWAYS on, my H is brought up in conversations (and is very usually close-by playing pool).
With your sense of humor though, I think something like this might work for you too. Just a suggestion. Personally, I think you would be excellent at this.
My counselor gave similar advice to me concerning my wife, but in the end, W did not leave or file. She still occasionally makes mention that she could have filed, wanted to file, still might file, blah, blah, blah. I now tell her to just do it and stop being a chicken [censored] about facing her guilt over filing. I do not think she wants to file or really intends to file, but she needs to rant and rave as much as she can.
Monday I had to take D13 to the orthodontist to get braces on her bottom teeth. She pitched a fit all weekend over going and when I came home during the day Monday to pick her up, she seemed to think that she had somehow convinced us not to put on the braces. Well we went anyway and all the way back all I heard was yelling, screaming, cursing, crying, etc. It occurred to me that she was acting exactly like W (though a little more extreme) and the best I should do was just let her vent so I didn’t say one word, until she started picking at her braces to pull them off. Then I laid down the law.
After more crying at home until she fell to sleep, she woke up in a fairly good mood. The next day the pain from the braces was much less that she expected (I think upper braces hurt much more). Since then she has been quite pleasant. Even W said D13 acts just like her. So my point is that if your W is like mine in any way (and my daughter) then she will go to great lengths to threaten and intimidate in order to maintain control. But in the end, what she really wants is to be nurtured, protected and loved.
For my W, I am thinking that years of rationalization about her FOO and denial of how this affects her love relationships has caused her to bury her anger and resentment deep within her. I think it is so deep that she cannot see how this affects her attitude toward me or her ability to forgive and put the past behind her. That is why I am so interested in what Corri has just learned.
Quote: which is, massages just make me sad. I don't know if you recall the last time I had a massage, but it was several years ago and my in-laws (W's sister) gave each of us a gift cert for a massage. I ended up going back to my car and bawling, because I hadn't been touched like that for so long.
If massages are making you cry... then in my opinion... you need one once a day until the tears stop. They don't call it massage therapy for nothing, HD. You have pent up emotions that need expressing... and you continue to stuff them. I see this as a two-for-one deal... you are expelling toxic emotions standing in the way of your happiness... and you are receiving empathetic/theraputic touching... which stimulate the release of endorphines and oxcytocin into your system... two 'happy' chemicals that combat cortisol, the stress chemical.
I know, I know... 'nice idea, Corri... but, no money in the budget...' <shrug>
I appreciate the suggestion for a massage, but two things come to mind: First, cost. I don't have room in my budget for this...and I'm not willing to make room for it because of the second issue, which is, massages just make me sad. I don't know if you recall the last time I had a massage, but it was several years ago and my in-laws (W's sister) gave each of us a gift cert for a massage. I ended up going back to my car and bawling, because I hadn't been touched like that for so long. No...massages are not for me. I agree, however, that I need to put myself first from time to time.