I'm guilty of skimming CeMar's posts sometimes, but I wanted to say that this really hit a chord today:
Quote: I am not sure that a LD women can be attracted to a man that would actually STAY married to them. They KNOW that they treat their men poorly, so how could they be attracted to a man that would actually STAY Married to them.
Cemar, I don't advocate Divorce for the sake of Divorce, but I can say that I've seen plenty of families that "stayed together for the sake of the kids" that hurt the kids far more than a divorce would havek, simply because the pent up anger and resentment made for an extremely toxic situation, that was not going to improve any because neither parent was willing to do the work to improve the marriage. It is quite possible staying together is more harmful to the children than splitting. What I am saying, is don't stay just because of the children. It does nobody any good. Stay if you can commit to improving yourself and your marriage. Stay if you love your wife, if you have any hope for the situation improving, or for a dozen other reasons, but don't stay just for the children. Nobody wins (especially the children) if the ONLY reason you are staying is for them.
I think you know you are full of it regarding the LD woman being attracted to a man. There are many facets to attraction. It isn't all just sex. Not only that, but it is quite possible your W has no clue as to how unhappy you are, or of the pain you are in. They don't "know that they treat their men poorly". In fact, I'd bet many feel that their sex crazed husbands are treating them poorly making them submit to sex regardless of how they feel about it. Cemar, I've said this before: it is all about communication. I know my situation turned around drastically once MrsGGB understood my feelings and how I tied sex to love. Sure, it still isn't perfect, may never be. It is however no longer unsatisfactory. You need to talk intimately with your W. You know, until you can grow yourself to the point where you can accept that people are different, and try to put yourself in your W's mind by listening to her about her feelings, I don't think you are going to get anywhere. Then again, I'm sure this isn't news to you...many folks here have said the same thing to you.
CeMar, staying together for the sake of the kids is like laying a minefield. My late H stayed in his marriage for the sake of the kids, and his 20-something daughter never forgave him. (She's 30-something now.) She wouldn't go in the hospital room during his last hospitalization, and she had to be dragged to his funeral. This is a common reaction. Look for a book called "A Grief Out of Season." When you pull the plug on the marriage after the kids are grown they feel that you have invalidated their entire childhood, that it was all a lie. When you D when they are still children, there is a chance to still have some good memories of childhood. Also when you D when they are children, you are THERE to help them through the D. After they are adults, you don't see them as much. They feel that you have kicked them out of the nest, and then burned the nest. I'm not making this up. There was an article on this recently on the net, but I don't have time to look for it right now.
If you don't leave now, you better plan on staying forever, because if you wait until they're grown, they'll never forgive you for deceiving them.
I think CeMar has hit on some truths, but has communicated differently than I would have. Here are my points (if I may jump in own my thread):
1) I am in the camp of staying married for the kids, but either way it is a loss-loss situation. My parents got divorced. My brother has never forgiven them for it. Myself, I am not so bothered by it. I do know that studies have shown (recent ones) that parents who stick together "for the kids", over 65% stay married after the kids leave. There is something to be said about history and experience that CeMar and his wife may learn in the interim.
2) CeMar mentioned that his LD females don't respect their husbands subconciously if they stay and that it takes a divorce sometimes for them to change. In a way, I agree. I feel that for a lot of people a change in perspective is needed for true change. Lots of people are afraid of change or lazy. For example, a LD spouse who feels solo sex is wrong and dirty. However, the husband passes away and she learns to explore out of necessity and loneliness. Then acceptance quickly follows.
Same situation for ML. I think for a lot of LD spouses, unfortunately, may not make the true effort to become HD or look into the reasons why unless a change in perspective occurs that really makes you look at yourself.
Look at a lot of the people on this board. A change in perspective has occurred. WAW, WAH, divorce, etc...
I really think that some people need to stop treating CeMar so harshly. In some ways, he is speaking the truth. My only advice is to bring hope back into the equation. Strange things have happened when you work and want them to be. Just do it in a respectful way.
Quote: I am not sure that a LD women can be attracted to a man that would actually STAY married to them. They KNOW that they treat their men poorly, so how could they be attracted to a man that would actually STAY Married to them.
I agree. Stop letting them treat you so poorly. Start with ALL the other things besides sex if it is really bad.
Drop the rope of all your fear rationalizations for why you let them treat you that way. It starts with the very small things of HOW they speak to you, HOW they ignore you.
ex. You> Its unacceptable for you to speak to me (or fill in the blank) like that. Her> Fine lets get a Divorce. You> Thats your choice. (completely dismiss it as relevant to you emotionally thus negating its power) I dont want a Divorce, but I will not tolerate you speaking to me like that anymore. (bringing it back on point, controlling the frame, not allowing the deflection) Do you understand? her> who do you think your talking too (escalation, testing, worse case scenario) you> (just look at her. ---then go somewhere quiet to regain all your lost energy from the conflict )
Quote: I am still hoping to hear from a HD wife who became LD and then returned to her HD state...without a divorce or an affair!
Well... hmmm not sure if I qualify exactly but I am a female who has gone from HD to LD to NO D to LD and back to HD. Keep in mind these terms for me are relative to my own ups and downs as no matter how HD I think I am H's drive always seems to be higher, hard to keep up with. I'm not sure I can explain all the different drive levels in one post as this covers a span of 26 years. But the most recent phase that brought back the HD in a quick synopsis, our youngest child moved out and I was thinking of becoming a WAW, started doing a lot of reading to save the M rather than destroy it as I knew I still loved H deeply we just had somehow disconnected. I read DB, DR, SSM, 5LL, The road less travelled etc. A lot of the books talk about sex being a love connection for the male and not just sex. I think somewhere in my pea brain I knew this but didn't really GET IT. I realized in order to connect with H again it needed to start in the bedroom. It was a conscious decision to do it for him, it did not start as DESIRE. After a week or so (H is a quick learner) H started to make an obvious effort to meet my needs, QT. The DESIRE to meet OUR sexual needs returned. I am also at a state where I feel better about my body, we don't have any worries of children walking in, we have the freedom of the whole house, we can do all the little things during the day (grab each other, hugs and kisses when passing each other etc) that lead to "can't wait to get you into bed" and sometimes we don't wait I guess what I am trying to say is there is hope cuz based on outside circumstances and stress and what was going on in our life my drive was all over the place. Does that help any? NR
)
