I want to try to head this off before it goes much farther. I am not upset at all by your words or actions. I think you are trying VERY hard to understand what your H (and I for that matter) are going through. I guess I just felt like I wasn't being honest with you by sugarcoating some of what I said, because I was doing that.
I DO want to help you and I am both compassionate towards you AND your H, but believe it or not, you first because YOU are the one here getting help.
What often happens with ALL of the posting here, not just to a thread where the "other side" is expressed, is that we often project our sitches onto each other, even if it's a terrible fit.
I think I did that unfairly to you and for that I am sorry. You just said some things that REALLY hit home (and I mean that in a good way) and made me realize how off I may be in my own thinking IF my W does really think like you do.
In fact, not only have you not upset me, you have been largely responsible in me really trying again to empathize with my W and understand how our daily interaction may be perceived by HER instead of assuming it was the same as MY perception. I can't thank you enough for that.
I can only hope to help you as much as you have already helped me.
SO, let's start over again here and I will try to get back to the compassion and try to give you what I can in terms of help/advice/comparison/information about my feelings in all this since there DOES seem to be some similarity in our sitches.
Thanks for the smiley face It's my problem not yours. I take everything so personally. You have every right to hate me by association and definitely should not be put in a position to feel sorry for me. Truth be told, I am the dirt on the bottom of someone's shoe and you simply confirmed it for me. It's ok it's the truth. There is a stong desire for H to deal with this and move on, and that's just not going to happen, and like you or someone else said, nor should it. Who am I to have any expectations from him right now. I need to change my way of thinking about this. It's not a problem to be solved, which is how I view the general world and is quite irritating to some, but it's a process. Believe it or not, you have helped me to see that.
I wish that other people would 'attack' me the way they did with JokerMan. In a weird way, I think it would help me see it from H's side. It shouldn't matter to me if perfect strangers are offended by me, but it does anyway. Again that is my problem, and a sure sign of my lack of self worth. But if it has the potential of getting H and I past what I consider to be a road block then yes I would appreciate it. Maybe I need to be humbled more in order to not have such high expectations of my H.
I think you're just making me see the reality of the pain I've caused, which is a good thing.
Piper, first of all, you are not dirt. You made a mistake, or maybe it was a level higher up on the totem pole than mistake. Maybe it was premeditated but whatever the case, you did it and now you are sorry. One of the first things you need to do is forgive yourself and then forgive your H if he can't just follow in kind.
I don't think this is avoidable (me continually comparing you to my W) nor do I think I should avoid it. As you rightfully said, I took the approach early on with you that since you seem like my W in some ways, and I may seem like your H in others, then maybe me sharing my point of view may help. Well, with that HUGE preface, I have this for you.
Advice to my W (you) #1633 (lol)...
W, please don't be "unavailable" for long periods of time. I don't really care WHAT the reason is, and if there is going to be a reason that you know about in advance, i.e. going somewhere there is going to be no signal, etc., please let me know. I know it's probably innocent but I can't tell you how it drives me crazy that every time I can't get ahold of you my mind goes straight back to "that" place where neither of us wants to be anymore. Sure, this is largly MY problem but I really would like you to help me with it. I feel caught. If I just brush it off and think "oh, it's probably nothing." then I feel like I am ignoring something that USED to be one of the biggest signals of SOMETHING (she admitted she just would not answer her cell when she was with him). If I ask you about it, you accuse me of being hung up on the affair and still suspecting you at every turn. You say I can't get past it and you just get pissed...
BTW, Piper, does this relate to you at all?
W, I just wish, one time when I ask you a question like "why didn't you answer your phone when I called" and you suspected I was feeling paranoid, you'd just come out and say "I'm sorry. I know how it may make you feel when that happens and I assure you I didn't mean for it to. I was xxx..."
MY point is, my W ALWAYS gets defensive when I ask/confront her on these things as if I have no right to be suspicious. Maybe I don't but really, what I am looking for more than confirmation that nothing is going on, is a certain understanding from her. I am looking for her to WANT me to believe that nothing is going on, and as much as you (I mean YOU piper) say you think he doesn't really want to be happy, I think my W (and maybe you) don't really WANT me to believe you are being honest (either that or she's not) because otherwise why not do these little, common sense things, like have your phone out of your purse so you can hear the thing ring between 11am-1pm, the PRIME OM time? Wouldn't that make sense, but to her, it seems like I am trying to control her or live in the past. To her, since there is nothing going on anymore, why do I have to be that way? It's like she resents the hell out of me for my feelings and that sucks.
Anyway Piper, that was confusing I'm sure. The bottom line here is that I think one of the things you could do to help H the most is NOT get defensive when he asks questions of you. Maybe do as some have suggested and that is to set aside a specific day and time frame where he is free to ask away, and you answer his questions (for some LBS it IS important they feel they have all the info), then he agrees to drop it until the next pre-determined time.
I know it feels like he's persecuting you, but I really think, like me, he's just trying to rid himself of the pain and paranoia and maybe looking to you for help, help you're uncertain about how to give.
Well if you want to be "attacked" you will get some of it here, but not too much. When and if you do, just realize people are on this board because of some kind of pain in their lives. Some of it is healed, and some of it is raw.
I agree you are not dirt or evil. An evil piece of dirt is a person who sexually abuses a child. Or someone who will shoot a family at point blank range in front of their kids for a few bucks.
You my dear are not dirt or evil.
However, you did make a mistake. I too get consumed by guilt. It is easy to do. I am still trying to heal and forgive myself. I can give you some advice, but not too much. I'm still trying to figure all this out in my own mind.
Just try to keep an open mind and have thick skin. There is a collective wisdom on this board. The vast majority want to help. So let them.
Piper, I realize that I never responded in detail to your post to me...so I will do so now...
Quote: I wanted to mention that we do have the book, and have both been reading it on and off since our C recommended it. Maybe we should start reading again.
I assume you mean PM? If so, good.
Quote: If your W is like me she is scared.
If she's scared, she sure doesn't show it very well. Maybe she translates her fear into anger or defensiveness. I just can't see past that to someone who's afraid of anything but making a mistake in being with me. Maybe that's my own insecurity... well, it IS my own insecurity but like I said, fear, although you are not the first to suggest that she IS afraid, is not a thing I readily associate with my W these days. Maybe I should.
Quote: Scared that you refusing to move forward and leave this baggage behind will mean that you will never completely let yourself be happy.
One thing I think that is important to realize is that the WAS (you) are often WAY ahead of the game when it comes to the idea that we make our own happiness, or that somehow there are things we can do in our lives to affect change in that respect. It's often what made you jump ship in the first place, and ONE of the not completely evil BENEFITS your affair can have in BOTH your lives. So, to the point that my W may feel (and you may feel your H) that I don't want to be happy, I only discovered that I WASN'T happy a few months ago. Before that I thought things were pretty spiffy aside from the usual married with kids issues that everyone deals with. Of course my W (and maybe you) realized that she wasn't happy YEARS ago according to her and finally DID something about it. That would be a REALLY good thing if what she did wasn't 6'4" 260lbs of man.
I think you have to give him time to process the idea that the goal here is NOT to go back to the way things were, a way that to him still seems ok. To you however, things were decidedly NOT ok, as they were not ok for my W. For you, the idea of going back is out of the question, for him (us) going back still seems like the safest and best thing to do.
I know better, he may not and for that, you can't necessarily blame him. Maybe you can paint a good portrait for him of the place you want to go with him in terms of a new relationship and maybe THAT will help him understand that yes, you want change, but change in a VERY GOOD way this time, not a bad way.
Quote: The fact that she become annoyed by your comments means she cares a lot. Sounds weird I know, but it's every human's instinct to live and live well. The day she just takes it and shuts down is the day you should be worried.
These are truths I know. Thank you for confirming them. She did shut down during the affair and is much more open now. It's just the defensiveness that gets me. It makes me feel like there's more she's not telling me, not that she's afraid of the future or anything like that. Leave it up to the paranoid mind to think that way. I, and your H, WANT to change that but it's really hard. You have to understand that.
Quote: I know it scares me that if H continues to relate everything in our world to my A that soon it will consume our lives like a virus and we will suffocate to death, together.
I can tell you only what I THINK would work for me and that is if my W was totally open about it and did the work (BTW, I have done a TON of "work" trying to get through this, she can do SOME) to reassure me that she was here to stay. Like I said, no long unaccounted for unavailable stretches, preemptively explaining strange situations, etc. Basically, acknowledging that YOU understand how certain things look. I think eventually these things would not be necessary but for now, they sure would help ME not wonder all the time and surely if I was not wondering all the time, I would relate less and less to the affair.
Many experts advocate TOTAL transparency by the cheater as a way to gain back trust. I guess that's what I am saying here.
Quote: The truth is it's just not fair to you. She has hurt you and you cannot retaliate because you love her.
AH! I think you may be projecting how YOU would feel and if you think this of your H too, you may be poisoning the process. I don't WANT revenge on my wife. I don't WANT to retaliate. I just want my wife back. I just want my marriage back. If you walk around thinking we want to somehow pay you back (you already said you think he's punishing you all the time, something I disagree with) then it will build resentment in YOU and make YOU paranoid. I think it would be best to try to put this thought aside. I know for me it's just about the furthest thing from my mind.
Quote: When you continually bring up her A, you are telling her that she will never get you back completely. Yes you may reside under the same roof but your relationship will be hollow.
The way I look at it is that she was the one who left, it's up to her to come back to a certain extent. I have been clear about how I feel, that I still love her and want her back. She has yet to allow us to be close in many ways. Maybe that's due to my "attacks" or things I am doing but I try as best I can to show her it's safe to "love" me again but she's still distant, especially physically (something you are helping me understand).
Quote: What all this means is that you have to do more work to heal. Is it fair, no, but who cares? If it means you have a happy life together with the woman you have chosen to be your wife then isn't it worth it?
Ok, so here's the thing, by being here for the past 9 months, tearing myself up and rebuilding myself how I really am, or want to be, I chose to do what you say a long time ago. I am lucky in that respect. You H, meanwhile, may not have made that choice as early on, or even now. The things I am sharing with you are an attempt to get you to a place where you can understand him and maybe help him.
Piper, you didn't upset me. I just wanted to give you some idea of what "we" the betrayed people feel. Give your H some credit for even trying to make things work. It is the most devastating situation to get ever go through. He is going to go through an emotional roller coaster and you need to be there to support him. He will feel anger and resentment towards you. Be there to hold him and smile at him or to just touch him tenderly to let him know you feel his sorrow and that you are there beside him. You need to be the strong one for the both of you. Don't be too critical for his asking about the A. Show him that you can be honest with your answers.
The hard part is for him to recover from the trust that was broken. He is probably wondering how he could ever trust you again. Understand that his world has been shaken to such an extreme that too many emotions may be blinding him. He may not act the way you want him to act or he may ask questions sarcastically.....it's all because he is hurt. He may even be thinking if you are worth his loyalty.
You are awesome. In two days you have both helped me see things I couldn't and validated some things I'm doing right, like being pre-emptive on how H might handle certain situations. Granted, I don't do it 100% of the time and I need to, no exceptions. Gradually my fear that we will not be ok again is subsiding and I am less reactive in a defensive way.
I like your letter. Did you actually give that to your W? I hope so. She has no right to both reside in your home and not willingly be an open book to you. She must make herself be aware that anything she does out of your sight causes you anxiety, and that equals lack of respect towards you, and quite possibly for herself. I know the cell phone thing well. I work at a desk so H can always call here, and he does, several times a day, or I call him. When not at work and if I forget my cell phone when I go into a store and he calls and I don't answer I'm sure he freaks out and has a mild heart attack. He handles it well though most of the time. And the first thing I always say is I’m sorry I forgot the phone. Sometimes he forgets that I have gone somewhere that I can't have a phone.
What you W is doing to you is kind of mean. Her reasons may be because she feels like how I explained I do in my previous posts, but she needs to verbalize it if that's the case. You are both hyper sensitive right now, in polar opposite directions, so you're bound to misinterpret eachother as we do. However, her actions may be an indication that OM is not out of the picture. Do you know he is for sure? Is it just her emotions she's dealing with, or is it possible she still has contact with him? Why is 11 - 1 the prime time? Does she look you in the eye when she talks to you? I know that until I came clean and was completely honest with my H I couldn't. It's possible she hasn't told you everything yet. You can't really demand answers from her, but you can demand respect, and you can tell her that too. Ask her if she thinks she is respecting you by leaving you guessing all the time. Ask her what she's getting out of it by not trying to avoid situation that might cause you grief. That's different than what I was talking about earlier, where I sometimes feel trapped underwater, like we'll never surface, the times that H chooses to relate a fun time to my A. That is his choice, and all choices have reactions whether he means to or not. But this is different.
Ok I have a dumb question, and I can't seem to PM you so everyone will have to get a good laugh, but how do you post quotes and how do you post multiple quotes in a response?
I'll have to look at your other post to finish replying.
That's an interesting observation, that I may be projecting how I might feel in H's shoes (in terms of retaliation). Thanks for pointing that out. Something I can work on putting out of my mind, especially if it's poisoning the process of healing. You are getting me to a place where I can understand him better.
JokerMan, although I started my posts by saying I didn’t think that H's punishment (well, that's what I thought it was then) wasn't a healthy way for us to heal, I think I secretly want to be reprimanded for what I did. I know I've always been hard on myself and I know it's not healthy. Did you learn things about yourself from all the questions that people asked you?
Do either of you know how I should respond to my H when he asks direct questions about sex with the OM?
I found that it was me who was unable to initiate or participate in sex for the first while, not him. Yet here I see a lot of the opposite reaction taking place, it makes me curious. I can honestly say that it didn't have anything to do with the OM, only with the fact that I no longer thought I deserved my H.
I have not asked my H any intimate questions. It hurts me too much to even think about what they may have done. It makes me sick to my stomach. I think your H needs affirmation that he is better than the OM. He is probably feeling really low about it.
