GH - We all know how difficult it is to take advice from someone that we don't consider impartial, no matter how appropriate the advice might be. With your wife's sleeping issues, would she be willing to see her GP? I know my dr always gets into any emotional issues going on, and if you encourage her to tell him/her the whole story (needs alcohol to sleep, battling forms of depression) she might listen better to his/her guidance than yours. I know my doctor has kept a close watch on me since my separation, and a friend of mine just went in to have her thyroid checked and now has some excellent referrals for help for some of her emotional issues. Her parents have been begging her to get help for years, and it wasn't until her doctor (impartial authority figure) told her flat-out that she needs to address it that she took is seriously. And she has a perfectly valid reason to see a doctor. Sleeplessness is a huge health risk.
Frank, actually I think of you when I think about my W's approach to all this. She HATES the idea of having to surrender control over her life (sorry to some of you who embrace that idea, I am not trying to judge) in order to feel like she can be sober or whatever. It's a fine line because I know addicts all over the world (and I am not sure she is one at this point) say the same thing; I can stop anytime I want, etc. My W is just a person who believes very much in personal control and while she isn't by any stretch doing much of that now, she seems to think she can will herself out of this. Maybe she can.
As for AA, she will NEVER do that. I can't really stress how much she hates the idea of sitting with a bunch of people talking about her problems. I think she'd sooner pull her finger nails out one by one than do that. Same for therapy.
As for seeing a doctor, almost the same thing.
One thing that is important to realize here is that because my W's family, her WHOLE family doesn't drink for religious reasons, she COMPLETELY denies her drinking to the entire world other than me and a couple friends. When she fills out those forms at the doctors office she lies when it comes to "do you drink alcohol?" Or "Do you smoke". She does both but is DEATHLY afraid of her family finding out. Yes, she's a very grown woman but her family is at the same time both a VERY strong positive and negative force in her/our lives. Some of her biggest issues stem back to them but she still lives her life largely by their standards and it makes her miserable because she always thinks she fails to live up.
So, that all complicates GREATLY this issue of getting help for her drinking even if she truly wanted to. I don't think she would ever seriously consider doing that except at 1:00am when she's feeling particularly sick. At 1:00pm, when things are fine, she's back to being "in control" and would never...
Frank, I think you are correct about her just needing to get her life back. That's why it's such a HUGE deal to me to get her to trust that I will not be "that guy" anymore that I have been for basically our entire marriage. The guy that SAYS "Go, have fun." then acts like a TOTAL a$$hole when she gets home because at the end of the night, he's not comfortable AT ALL with his wife going out without him due to DEEP self-esteem issues/jealousy.
I need her to understand that I "get that" now and I can change my behavior...I HAVE changed my behavior. Her starting to go out with friends again and me being "normal" about it is how that happens, so yes Frank, I too think her other issues would calm down a LOT of she got back to her life. BTW, she NEVER used to drink like she does now when she had her friends around more, went out, etc, so if history is an indication, I think this is key.
Lastly, I do think she wants to work, but since she never has, she is having trouble getting over that hump of actually deciding that today, right now, is the time and just go out and get a job. Part of the problem is that she has it in her head because of her number of degrees and amount of education, that getting a part time job somewhere is "below her" and would only add to her feeling of failure. She's not really that much of a snob but it all goes in line with the whole lot of expectations heaped on her by her parents and family. Getting a job at Target would only add fuel to that fire. The alternative, getting something in her field seems to be something she doesn't want to do for some reason. Maybe because it would require real commitment, something she is short on these days, I don't know.
I do think she will find something soon because as much as we all can see that she may need that, she sees it too so that's a good thing.
I think the situation with her wanting to go out with friends and another "RED FLAG", get Breast Implants, reads like a lot of these stories that tell about events leading up to an affair. I think if my wife was so selfish to not have even given me a handj** in the last 9 months I'd be a little leery about paying for new boobs for someone else to play with.
Could she get a part-time voluntary job with a charity? That way she'd get out, feel she was doing something useful and get into a routine. It also would mean she wouldn't feel so bad about doing something 'beneath' her qualification level, as she'd be doing it for a good reason.
You cannot teach a man anything; you can only help him discover it in himself. Galileo Galilei
GH, It just occurs to me that you are falling into "taking care" of her. I just feel like she's got you racking your brain to figure out what she should do. Is this a pattern you got into before with her? Being taken care of can create resentment too. It indicates that you don't believe the other person is capable of making good, adult decisions (even if the A bears that out!) Just some thoughts for you to ponder. Don't forget about you, guy!
tmite, I appreciate the support, but I think your idea about her being "selfish" and not giving me a handj** in 9 months is a little harsh and uncalled for. You are assuming that before all this, the previous 8 years, that my W happily gave me handj**s or that I even wanted her to. She did not (happily or otherwise) and I did not (I guess because it just wasn't something I wanted/needed her to do), nor do I now. Not to be too graphic but I am perfectly capable of giving myself a handj** so I will hold out until she is willing/able to do more than that thank you.
As for the "red flag" of her wanting to go out or get implants I just have to disagree. First off, she doesn't really want implants, she just wants a lift and secondly, why is it a "red flag" when someone wants to have fun with her friends?
Sorry if I misled you all about exactly WHAT she wanted to get done to herself. While I DO have misgivings about her asking my opinion about it, I don't really fault her for wanting it done. I am sympathetic to the body issues she, and a lot of women have after giving birth.
As for things leading up to an affair, she's already had the affair and I know all about what that looks like leading up to it. It looks like her sitting in the house for 4-5 years, having NO life to speak of other than looking after two kids and a husband, frustrated all to hell and finally thinking her whole life was a sham until Mr. Right came along and changed all that. I firmly believe that if she had maintained her friendships with her GF's and done more to make herself happy in that respect, we may not have all the issues we have now. Then again, it could be full-blown MLC too so...
In short, I understand that in some cases, the idea of "going out with friends" can be a warning sign, and in my case it was, but since she knows FULL well what I am thinking about that and is willing to be totally "above board" about it than I am all for it because I also believe that she needs to start taking steps that DON'T include an OM to make herself happy.
IF there was no affair, or the marriage was otherwise "happy" or "normal" then one spouse going out occasionally with GF's or the "guys" is a non-issue, as a matter of fact, usually something encouraged by most "experts" in terms of maintaining a "life". I want my marriage to be more "normal" than it ever was before and that means NO MORE CODE
The issue here is that I want to make sure WE go out too, something that has actually been happening more lately than in the last 5-6 years, so that's good.
Sorry to sound defensive (actually it feels kinda GOOD to defend my wife for a change), but like most sitches, mine is a bit more complicated than my W holding out on me and not "taking care of me" in some way.
tmite, while it MAY seem like I resent your comments, I DO NOT at all. Actually I am VERY happy you posted because it made me really think about things from a different perspective and I ALWAYS like to do that. Thank you very much and please, contribute as much as you'd like.
There's a very fine line between taking care of and caring for your W. I found in my experience (and this probably has more to do with circumstances in my own sitch than any universal truth) that when I stepped away and "let" my wife take care of herself, she felt abandoned. I think the fact that you are thinking about her personal needs for self improvement and advancement are healthy. You are aware of what she feels she needs to do for herself, and you are thinking about options.
I know that I used the idea that I shouldn't fix my W to step away from her - the fact is that what I want from my relationship is to grow myself alongside my partner. I want her involvement and input in my self development, and I think she wants mine too. Her life is her own, and we shouldn't take on more than is healthy, but not taking ANYTHING on is not healthy either.
Recognize her ability to do for herself; respect her equal right to fail at what she attempts. Respect her ability to decide whether or not she wants to incorporate someone else's advice, and give just that. Don't allow yourself to fall into the trap of being the hero with all the knowledge that will help her fix this situation she's in. You're not. But, your perception as her partner can be, and likely is, extremely useful to her. Don't withhold it for fear, but don't push it either.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Quote: GH, It just occurs to me that you are falling into "taking care" of her.
Muddle and I have wives that are very similar in this respect. She sometimes ASKS me to "take care" of her either directly or indirectly and actually one thing that came out in our last R talk that was VERY important was...
W: (crying) You were never home after the kids were born. You just kept living your life (true BTW) and left me at home 24/7 to deal with all this (financial/kids/etc). I can handle it, and did back then but I wanted you to help. I needed you and you left me alone SO much. M: I know. I realize that now. I am sorry.
(BTW, to explain the sitch for those of you kinda new to me, I have a full-time day job, working 40 hours+ a week and then for my entire marriage have also pursued a photography career that until VERY recently has been making NO money. To be honest, it was more of a hobby for a long time there, but one I would always insist was my "career" and thus justified taking assignments to cover sporting events, etc, that I just wanted to go to and that paid next to nothing. My W, for her part, almost NEVER complained because she knew I loved what I was doing but she did try to get me to scale back, something I often promised to do but didn't ever really follow through on. I always had an excuse why it was important I was gone 3-4 nights a week and many Saturdays/Sundays. She lived with this, accepting it for a long time, with the only real request being that I find a way to make my "business" make some money so that at least my being gone so much would have SOME benefit other than me getting to go to cool events, etc. I agreed but lingered for YEARS probably LOOSING money to my "career" all the while taking on MORE AND MORE "jobs" that I really didn't have to take. I was a jerk about this. I could have EASILY shifted my focus to actually MAKE money (which I have done now with weddings) and been home a lot more without damaging my "career" but I simply didn't want to. Now I am paying the price for that. Even my old boss at my day job, after only working with me for a few months called me into his office and warned me "If you keep this up, you won't have a family to go home to." and that was from a single, anti-marriage, man who knew me very little... oh, and about a year before the affair. Damn. Anyway, back to wrap up the convo...
W: I don't need you to be sorry. I don't really need you to feel bad, I just want you to know how much that hurt. It seemed like you didn't care about me. It seemed like I asked you all the time to be around more and you just ignored me. M: I didn't do that on purpose to hurt you, but I can see how you felt that way. W: It sucked and then when the kids got older, I just resented you for being gone. It's almost like all the stress I was under and all that I had to do alone, all the time thinking you could have helped, made me/us miss out on a lot of what should have been good times. As it was, I felt your near constant anger, which made me afraid to even talk to you about all this (very true) and the fact that you were gone unnecessarily (true again) just made things so much worse than they needed to be. I tried to talk to you about it but you never seemed to care so I gave up.
That was one of the BIG things that came out of the convo. I can't believe I forgot to post that.
Anyway, my W is painting a pretty accurate picture of my involvement in family life over the past 6 years or so. She readily admits that I DO/DID help a lot when I was there, but I freely admit NOW that I choose to do things in my photography career that paid little or no money just because I LIKED to do them and at the expense of important time with my family, then when I WAS around, I was often bitter and angry for various reasons.
So, back to me "taking care" of her. I really have never done that. I DO a lot for her, but she is actually someone who resists being taken care of most of the time. The problem is that on those rare occasions when she would ask me to take care of her, I often was not around to do it.
I know it's anti-DB to pursue or "take care" of our spouses, but 180's are also a big part of the plan. I, like many of us, have had to weigh the benefits of 180's that MAY go against other DB "rules" like, for instance, the idea of getting out, i.e. GAL. In my case, since a LARGE part of the problem was me being gone so much "having a life" as my W has said a lot in the past, GALing would not exactly have made things better. I had to consider the good/bad of going out MORE versus the potential good/bad of maybe cutting back on my going out and instead modifying the GAL idea to be more about learning to enjoy the life I already had.
I don't really think about this stuff that much anymore. I know the "bad" traits I was exhibiting and I wanted VERY much to change those things for my sake AND my families. I think I have done that. Now, it's just a matter of living my life the best I can, true to the man/husband I want to be.
I have in no way forgotten about me. I think about me all the time. Now the trick is to make sure she does too, lol. I just think the way for me to do that is NOT to play hard to get. I did that for the past 6 years and here we are. I am trying something different this time around.
