Return flight to limbo-land... GH Saga Cont.

[PositivelyListening]

Hi GH, Nice to see your post. I am feeling particularly impatient this morning, so it is helpful to see your steady patience. Although right now I am not sure how any of us do it And I am just pissy enough to wonder why we want to anymore So thank goodness for you GH.

I suspect everything is fine in your sitch. It always sounds to me like your W needs to figure out what it will take in life to make her happy, and you just need to keep the focus on you and giver her lots of space. The only thing I can say to you, is whenever possible don't make the "pressuring" type comments like you did in the movie theatre about the love scene. I know that kind of indirect "why don't we ever..." is a real turn off to me. On the other hand, if you say "I want to try that out as soon as we get home, are you game?" with a little smile, that is more straight, direct and sounds like a man who knows what he wants and is on his way to getting it, one way or the other. I just wanted to encourage you, in your language, to be more assertive about what you want, then ask her if she wants to play. If not, off you go, to play with someone else or somewhere else. Keep her guessing. She totally thinks you are waiting around for her. Don't ! at least don't make it seem like you are at her beck and call.

You're the best GH. Back to exercise is good! I wish I could trade some of your patience for my "screw you H" attitude right now. Lucky I will have a coaching call with DB coach Chuck in 1/2 hour. More later

[grasshopper]

I suspect everything is fine in your sitch.

I too SUSPECT everything is fine in my sitch but like everyone else at this stage of the "game" I want to KNOW it's fine. It's that old, evil unknown that is our downfall every-time.

It always sounds to me like your W needs to figure out what it will take in life to make her happy, and you just need to keep the focus on you and giver her lots of space.

Like I think Muddle and others can attest to, there are some people, like our wives, who, when given space, ask for you to take it back. My W perceives ANY attempt by me to pull back as some kind of immediate response to something she did or didn't do. I know I need to detach from that, but I guess we are stuck in the pursuer/distancer roles, the only difference is that for the longest time she didn't ask me to be "close" to her in any way, now she does. I see that as positive overall, but it makes it really hard for me to decide to give myself some space since all along I have been trying to get her to "pursue" me, something she is kinda doing now with her requests for "us" time. The problem is that that "us" time is on her terms for the most part, and does not include intimacy.

Most of me thinks that it WILL in time include more than it does now and she's just easing back into things. I will never forget what she told me a month or so ago when I questioned the fact that our progress was so slow. She said "I don't see how you think I can go from thinking for at least a year that our marriage was over, essentially having NO feelings for you to having feelings for someone else then back to having passionate feelings for you in the span of a couple weeks (in her mind, that's how long she'd been "trying"). She asked for more time to get back to "that" place. I guess that's still what's going on. It's just hard to not have my mind wander and think about the other reasons why she may be distant.

The only thing I can say to you, is whenever possible don't make the "pressuring" type comments like you did in the movie theatre about the love scene. I know that kind of indirect "why don't we ever..." is a real turn off to me. On the other hand, if you say "I want to try that out as soon as we get home, are you game?" with a little smile, that is more straight, direct and sounds like a man who knows what he wants and is on his way to getting it, one way or the other.

Thank you SO SO SO SO much for this. I KNOW she hates it too and will usually never say anything. I guess along with my PMA/GAL efforts waning a bit lately, so has my self-imposed ban on sarcasm and self-deprecating humor.

As for the direct approach, I do that too, but when it's mixed in with the sarcasm, I think it all comes off as insincere and unsexy.

She totally thinks you are waiting around for her. Don't ! at least don't make it seem like you are at her beck and call.

Well, call it codependent, dysfunctional, whatever, but we are kinda at each other's beck and call. It's that dynamic, as muddle is so clearly illustrating in his sitch, that when changed, i.e. me pulling back, that causes a lot of friction and accusations of me trying to prove a point, etc. I am not saying she's right or wrong, but like muddle is saying, nothing he does is ever for him in his W's eyes, it's because of her. My W is the same to an extent but she is always appreciative of what I do and usually is not demanding at all. I just think this is one of the dynamics (me being there to do certain things) that was not the downfall of our marriage. There are so many other more obvious, and talked about issues, that need addressing. This one is WAY back there. I know it's core to DB in terms of GAL and such but I am making up for lost time in a way because of how much I used to be gone.

If you look at CM's thread and her sitch of feeling like her H was never around just for "her", that's how my W feels. My pulling back now makes her feel the return of the "bad-old-days".

Thank you SO much for your help today.

GH

[PositivelyListening]

Hi GH, Small thread hijack. timincolo in Newcomers could use some support fom the wise ones. His sitch is moving fast, and he needs help. I am supporting him but truly he needs more than me. GH or anyone else available to check in on him?

[whatisis]

Hi GH,
I understand your headspace right now. It's hard to do nothing but it's hard not to do nothing, if that makes sense!You don't want to rock the boat if things are going OK but if they aren't you want to interecede, but don't know what to do. It's hard not to get into negative headspace. I'm wondering what would be wrong with having a R talk with your wife and call it a "check in". You can tell her you feel some positive stuff is happening (hooray!) but you're feeling frustrated/ impatient etc. but you are willing to carry on. I somehow feel like you feel as though you are being held hostage by her and can't put forward any of your stuff in case something "bad" happens. Maybe just check in without expectation and you've at least shared how you are feeling. Again, as we all know, she has betrayed you and torn your heart out, you deserve a little patience too in return. Re the ML stuff, are there things she can do that are short of intercourse that would please you and she would be OK with? I mean would a lousy h***job kill her??? I know that may seem a little short of your ultimate romantic goal but you got to start somewhere. Can you two talk about such things? Anyway, just some thoughts that may or may not apply, you decide.

[grasshopper]

The weekend was ok. Yesterday found me in a REALLY bad mood over the lack of progress in our sitch and the accompanying bad thoughts I have about why that may be. I took it out on W and she noticed big time. She got pissed. Finally I realized that I was acting like a P/A a$$hole and pulled her aside and apologized. She 1/2 accepted it but said she was still pissed. I just went into "happy mode" (didn't really have to try since we were going to a party for S6/our basketball team that I was looking forward to). In a short time W pulled out of her mood and we both enjoyed the rest of the day/night. I even got my first back rub in like 6 years.

What has been happening with me the last week is that I have been building up to a massive R talk. I had myself convinced that I wanted to talk to her. I put it off but when she was distant and cold on Friday night, I figured that was the time. Then I was acting strange on Saturday, probably in anticipation of the "talk". I decided that I would give it the ole' 24 hour rule because I thought I was getting more emotional than I wanted to be. If I had just done it on Friday night, it would have been great because I was in a really good mood and W would have probably talked a lot more freely than she would have Saturday night when I had been pissy for much of the day.

Really, there was not THAT much thought that went into it, more gut feeling. In the end, all that waiting was stressful but I discovered that the desire for R talk is a lot like hunger. If you manage to get past that strong wave, you are usually ok until the next wave comes along.

I also figured out that really for the first time, I resisted that STRONG urge to talk and once that urge subsided yesterday, I realized that I never really gave peace a chance. Every time things were "good" for awhile, I managed to start a R talk and I think for my W especially, that starts the process all over again.

I decided to just suck it up and see what happens. Well, for some reason, W started to be "warm" again, even giving me my backrub After she was done she leaned over me (she was standing behind the couch) and hugged me, then a little peck kiss. It was nice.

I can't say that I was 100% right not to R talk, but if I really look at the cycle we are stuck in, one of the major components seems to be my constant need to know what's up at all times. I really think if I can learn to deal with the unknown with more openness and curiosity rather than fear and trepidation, I can allow this process to move forward.

I know I am not to blame for the limbo, or at least not ALL to blame, but I am constantly trying to figure out what I can do so when the day comes, good or bad, I can say I did all I could do to save my marriage. I know I don't hold nearly all the cards, but the ones I do hold, I want to play right... or at least learn to bluff a WHOLE lot better, lol.

GH

P.S. Whatis, right now, it's really hard to talk to W about things relating to sex. Maybe soon, but not right now. We have never been that open about these things and it's something I want to work on in our "new" marriage.

[whatisis]

GH, only you can know whether your need for R talk is excessive but I would hate for you to always feel you have to submit to her priorities e.g. not to talk. Is there a middle road here? Also the ML thing is a toughie. We guys think if we're getting some that means love, women don't seem to have that mindset. Again, a middle road would be nice right now. Limbo is a hard place to be. lastly get back out there and run, not for her but for you. If nothing else it sure works off some of that anger etc. I used to feel my world was ending, then go for a run and afterwards walk home counting all the blessings in my life. Go for it, GH!

[grasshopper]

Whatis,

It's not really that my W doesn't want to talk, it's that I seem to either allow the convos to go badly or can't seem to keep from getting defensive, especially when I am emotional to begin with. We actually DO talk from time to time and she has said she's open to talking whenever but I can't seem to get the hang of this "direct" stuff, lol.

It's my fear that usually makes things bad for me/us, not really her reaction. This time, my fear may have shown me the way, I don't know. What I do know is that I am realizing that if I get out of my own way, things usually go better for me no matter what she does or does not do.

GH

[grasshopper]

Last night was strange. W was fine all night and all of a sudden, after we got finished watching TV, and she started doing her "getting the kid's stuff ready for the morning" routine, I noticed her being short with me. Unlike usual, I was still on the couch flipping around between channels, finally deciding to watch a few minutes of something I taped. She asked me in the middle of that process "Oh, you're still looking for something to watch?" with a sorta miffed tone. It was 11:00 and usually we go to bed around 11:30-12:00 but other than that, I didn't see what she would be pissed about. After about 15 minutes, she walks by with her iPod on (she always listens to music when doing her nightly stuff) and announces she's going to bed. That was strange because she NEVER goes to bed before me. I was tired too and decided to pack it in for the night. I tried to give her a hug goodnight and she didn't really respond. I told her I was going to bed (she was finishing up) and she just kinda nodded (usually she would say "I'll be up in a sec" or something like that). I asked her if everything was ok and she said yea. I just left it at that.

I went to bed and she came up a few minutes later, curled up on her side and went to sleep. I tried to get close to her and she seemed to pull back so I left her alone and went to sleep myself feeling like I missed something.

There wasn't really time for her to have talked to OM or anything so I really think it was something having to do with us. Hell, maybe it was just an isolated mood. Whatever it was, contrary to my "old" self that just HAD to know what was wrong and wanted to fix her, I just let her be. Good move I guess.

This morning when my alarm went off, she asked me to stay in bed with her, making the "hug me: move and I obliged. I slept in with her for about 15 minutes, then when I got out of the shower, I laid back down with her for another few minutes. At the end, when it was time for me to go, she asked me nicely to please rub her lower back. I did and then left.

I forgot my wallet so I had to come back in the house. By that time she was downstairs. She was on the couch when I was going out the door and I stopped, leaned over the back of the couch and gave her a hug. When I leaned in to kiss her cheek/neck, she made a little turn and kissed me on the lips. Wow. It was not a "real" kiss, but it's more than she's initiated in the past, well, several YEARS.

I am not over reacting to this, but it is significant that something seemed to be up and instead of hounding her about it, I let her be, then she seemed "fine" in the morning and we seemed to take a baby step.

In general, as I have said 1000 times, things could not be much better except for the physical intimacy part. We get along great, I am expressing my feelings more, asking for more from her and getting it, being more loving, MUCH less angry around her and the kids and am generally a better man. Our R is great, the kids are happy, W even seems to be getting happier but there is still that slowly shrinking elephant in the room. I hope he goes away soon.

GH

[Still_Standing]

Awesome job, GH. Keep shrinking that elephant in the room. You truly are an inspiration to me.

[grasshopper]

Last night, after a couple glasses of wine (as is usually the case) W looked upset. I asked her what was wrong. She said she didn't want to talk about it. I said "ok" but said I was still concerned. She was crying. She said again that she didn't want to talk about it (I didn't ask again). There was a pause and then I said...

M: About what? The same thing we always don't talk about?
W: No, it's not that. I'm just depressed.
M: Ok, is there anything I can do?
W: No. I just need to get over it.
M: Maybe, but if talking would help, I am here.

...drum roll...she talks...(btw, this is paraphrased. I am condensing some of this for brevity's sake)

W: I feel trapped. I feel like a caged animal. I wake up in the morning feeling sick. I feel like I can't leave the house. I am not allowed to. Everything I do makes you think I am cheating on you. I deserve it I know, but now I feel like I can't do anything. I'm not allowed. I ruined it for myself because of what I did. Now you will never trust me again and I did that to myself.
M: Never is a long time. I am starting to trust you but I can't tell you I don't have feelings when certain things come up.
W: I know. I feel like crap so much of the time. When I forget my phone, or somehow miss a call from you, I get cold sweats because I know when I talk to you next you will assume I was doing something I was not (true btw, most of the time...$hit). I feel like I can do nothing right. You make me feel that way.
M: That's not true. I have changed in that respect. I don't try to control you anymore.
W: BS. You still do what you have always done. The looks, the moods, the things you say. I don't think you mean to do it, but you do and it makes me feel like garbage. I hate what I did but you play it up so much I can't ever forget it. I can't for even one minute.
M: That sucks that you feel that way. I try so hard NOT to act that way but I can see why you see it that way.
W: I just want to go out with a girlfriend (she mentions a old friend of ours, someone she knows I trust) and just have fun every once in awhile but I can't because every time I leave the house you think it's to see him.
M: Well, there are two reasons why I still think that sometimes. First, because you don't try at all to reassure me that it's NOT the case and the time I thought it was NOT happening, you came out and said it was again so...The second thing is the state of "us". I am a LOT more secure in myself than I used to be but the bottom line is that I truly feel that you are incapable of seeing two people at once. I fully realize that once you started seeing him, things stopped between us and have never started again. That makes me think there is still possibly a REASON beyond our issues that makes you not willing/able to be intimate with me.
W: I thought I made it clear about all that weeks ago.
M: No, but you can right now. Are things 100% over between you and him, no calls, no contact, nothing. No chance of going back, no "I think I still love him and may leave you"?
W: No, there is nothing going on. There hasn't been for a long time now. When I said those things about still being confused, that was all me. That was NOT because I was still seeing him.
M: Ok, then what's the problem. It's over. There is nothing for me to worry about. If you want to go out with GF, then do it. If I have feelings about it, I will have to deal with that, but ultimatly, YOU have to be happy if WE are ever going to be happy together and feeling like a caged animal is NOT the way to feel happy. I WANT you to have fun and see your friends.
W: No, when I leave to go to the store you give me looks. I can't imagine what would happen if I went out at night.
(at this point, the guilt I have really not seen much of is really surfacing)
M: No, that's not true, and if it is, I am sorry. I don't mean to act that way. The only thing I can't really deal with is you going out with "friends" that I don't know, frinds of his that you don't feel comfortable introducing me to. That's crap.
W: I don't want to go out with anyone in particular, just ANYONE. I just need adult company outside this family. I need to have fun. Everyone else I know, married and single, has that but I am a shut in. I hate it. It's driving me crazy.
M: Well, like I said, I want you to have fun and go out. I just wish you would understand that I am not your father but I DO want to be reassured from time to time that things are not as they may seem. Until tonight, two things I had not heard you say was that it was 100% over and that you knew I felt funny when you didn't answer your phone, etc. Why didn't you just say those things before? That's what I mean by me wanting you to want me to trust you.
W: I have said those things before.
M: No, you have dodged the question before. Now you aren't. I appreciate that.

We went around in circles, me saying I wanted her to feel like she could go out and her saying it was impossible because of what she'd done. I told her to forgive herself, as I had forgiven her. She cried a lot and in the end, I held her while she fell asleep.

It was 50/50 good/bad. It was good that we expressed feelings, but bad in terms of her saying at one point that I had not changed at all.

I did finally tell her that I wanted us to be back "normal" and that would go a long way to showing me she was serious but that I knew it would take time. I told her I would do my best to not be so suspicious but didn't understand why she just didn't come out and explain herself when she KNEW things looked bad. Why the pride? Why not do what it takes to win my trust? She didn't have an answer.

I don't really know what it all meant but overall, I think it needed to happen. I needed to know what she was feeling, and she needed to know what I was feeling.

I gotta run so that's it for now. I'm sure I will post more.

GH