Well, my last thread locked up with some of you posting that I should get a baby sitter. Mama and maybe a few others who have been with me from the beginning will know that this issue is complicated for MANY reasons but I will try, best I can to explain it.
First, getting a babysitter has been a problem for a number of reasons.
1) We do not go to church (yea, I know, and please, let's not start THAT conversation) so our network of people is limited in that respect.
2) We don't know many people in our neighborhood and those that we do know either don't have teen/college age kids or if they have babysitters, they don't seem very willing to give them up to us, i.e. give us their numbers. Also, our sons' school is pretty far away so the moms of the other kids don't have sitters that live close enough to us. We've tried that too... or at least my W says she has.
3) There was a point, starting a couple years ago that I TRIED to take things into my own hands (since W seemed to be dragging her heals) and find us a babysitter. I went as far as getting phone numbers, etc. I found these people through neighborhood newsletters, through MY friends, etc. My W never wanted to follow through and if I suggested doing it on my own, she didn't want that either. I did, at one point talk to a couple people, even set up meetings but W, one way or another, managed to put a stop to it. Could I have just done it without her participation? Yea, but considering she is HYPER protective over the kids (another issue to talk about another time) and I wanted to do this to get her to go out with ME, it didn't really pay to have her pissed at the process that made that possible. She would always SAY she was going to find a person she liked and then never do it no matter how much I asked her. It seemed to me that the best case senario would have been for both of us (since she didn't seem to want me to handle it OR her) to work together to make this happen but she never really seemed into it.
4) The people we have used (exactly TWO girls, 3 times in 6 years) both are not very available and one has since moved away, the other soon to do so as well.
5) In the past, money was a BIG part of why we didn't do this. The things we like to do, go to movies, dinner, plays, concerts, clubs, etc, all costs money. We could never really justify the added $40-60 or more added to our night's expenses to go out. We just figured we could just stay home, eat together after the kids went to bed, watch a movie on our big TV and save the money. In hindsight, that cost versus the decline of our marriage seems VERY small... of course, much of our marriage we literally could not afford this.
6) We have NO family within 200 miles of us.
Now, there is also the fact that my W, come to find out only AFTER the affair and this sitch began, really HATED to go out with me because of how I would act. I would get moody if things didn't go my way and if we went with other people, I would never talk to anyone, preferring to sit alone while they danced, drank and had a good time. People would always ask me what was wrong. That would piss me off even more than her "leaving me alone". I was a passive/aggressive [censored] to the Nth degree. I now know this.
I think all these years when I have been trying to get her to get a sitter, or work with me in my attempts to get one on my own, she was not cooperative because she just didn't want to go through the hassle for a night out that would usually end up badly... and they did. These are realizations that come with soul searching...sadly I didn't have to search very deep.
I know you may be thinking "well, things have changed so why not try again?" I have tried, BELIEVE ME, I have tried. I have tried to get her to get the girl she used those two days (hell, for all I know this girl knows about OM and is covering for them) but for some reason she's never available when WE need her. I have once again brought up the people I know. She seems to ignore this. I have even scheduled a good friend of ours to babysit free of charge and she balked. There's only so much I can do.
She CLAIMS not to want to go out, just like she has all these years things have been "bad". She CLAIMS that the life we have, staying at home, watching the occasional movie is enough for her as long as we get to go out when our parents visit, or we visit them (about once or twice every couple months). BS I say, but what can I do? She HATES surprises, always has. She HATES to be out of the loop on something like a babysitter or plans to go out.
I am at a loss. You can suggest anything you want, but the bottom line is until my W wants to go out with me, I guess she'll block every effort I make to facilitate it. That's how I see things. It's not 100% dire, as you all suggest, but I DO see this as one of the changes I want to see in our marriage. I THINK, through conversation and just time passing, she IS starting to soften on this. I really DO think she tried to get the "girl" to babysit for our anniversary so that's a plus (actually, she was the same one who sat for us last anniversary).
Like I said, it's complicated. I wish it didn't sound like a bunch of excuses. Maybe it is, but I just can't seem to make this work on my own and if she isn't willing to help, well...
Sounds like you and W are at a point when you can talk about resolutions. Sounds like you're taking the lead on this, b/c of your diligent DB efforts and trying that you've done for so long, but then also frustrated with W for not trying.
How about flipping the tables, a little forcefully. It's kinda PA to do all the work, and then get frustrated when W does not put effort....it's just a pattern you have to shake and kinda make her take the lead.
So, sounds like you already have, but tell W that you have tried a lot of things that don't seem to match up, and what does SHE think you should do? What does SHE suggest? If she suggests, point her to the ACTION part of doing it (so, you think we should call XX?? When do you think you can call?). If she thinks of nothing, then say "OK, so it looks like we can't go out. No worries" Just so she knows that you're not to blame, you tried and initiated, and her lack of effort was a big part of this.
It kinda breaks the dynamic that you find frustrating....you are the giver and she is the receiver and no turn in that. This pushes it back....and kinda gets you to more normal marital dynamics of finding solutions.
GH...another little warning....many of us here realize this and almost ALL of us see it in our sitch's.
The "trying" of the WAS. I think, to convince us, keep the "peace" and to convince themselves (most important) the WAS "tries" in the M. These are WEAK attempts to put effort into the R, while you are breaking your back in putting effort. I think it's so they can say "see, I tried and it STILL doesn't work...so I'm out." It's kinda this sabatoge that's sick. It's appeasing their minds, setting us for failure and soothing the guilt and most importantly, is the cloak to facing their OWN issues.
I think this is a phase/tactic that ALL WAS's use. A big realization came for me when H was seeing OW AND saying he was "trying. I thought "he's NOT trying, just trying to sabatoge and pretend trying" So, I stopped all back breaking efforts and just went into focus on me mode and put effort in the R as I would for a friend, only changes I wanted for me anyway...sustainable. I pulled back a bit, was happier in that, and fully acknowledged to HIM that his efforts were holding us back ("oh, so we can't go to dinner b/c you're "working late" no worries). No frustration, no expectations.
So, back to detaching a little more. You're still expecting a lot, I think. And just driving yourself crazy.
FINALLY, after all this time, my H (now coming through the MLC tunnel) is saying "I didn't put effort into our M...WOW, I said that? I saw you trying and wasn't receptive and WANTED to see it as insincere, too late, but I was just lazy and unreceptive."
We've been down that road. Actually, that's where things stand right now. I have told her that I think us going out is important and that I have tried to do all I can do make that happen. She says she knows I have and is willing to take the lead. We'll see, but all I know is that this is not one of those places where I can "step up and be a man" and just take charge. This is not one of those things she is secretly waiting for me to do for her.
I don't know what the answer is. She agrees that it would be nice to go out but seemingly refuses to do anything about it. It is almost as frustrating (if I let it be that is) to think about as our intimacy, or lack thereof.
I agree, this "trying" thing is a self-defeating process, or it CAN be. I also think it's a necessary evil in sitches like ours. I could pull back now but I think progress is being made so I continue to "try" myself. I am NOT breaking my back anymore. She is starting to put forth some effort and also seems to be getting more comfortable with "us" in terms of being physically close to me. We have spent the past several nights "spooning" before falling asleep. She continues to respond to my "signals" or even my overt attempts to bring up our lack of intimacy by suggesting that there WILL be a time sooner rather than later.
As an aside, last night, in response to her saying she's too heavy, something I disagree with, I took a slightly different approach. I told her that I thought she was beautiful and just wanted her to be happy. I said that when I say "No you're not fat" I am not trying to discourage you from working out, getting in better shape or losing weight, what I am saying is that I think you look great. That's not to say you shouldn't work out. You need to feel good about yourself. Also, I owe you an apology (this got her). The other day I said I felt like there was never a time when "we" were together that you felt good about yourself (which started a fight because I was implying that she only felt that way with OM...partially true). I told her I realized that she was VERY happy with herself while we were in Ireland and we were a "we" on that trip for the most part so I take back what I said... but added that it was VERY nice to be with her then. She said "don't you WANT someone who is not content to sit on the couch and get fat?" I replied "Of course, but more than that, I want to be with someone who is finally happy with themselves however they are. If working out more and getting into better shape makes you happy, then I'm all for it."
So the clincher to all this convo was, after a bit of a pause, I ended with "Oh, BTW, if you think I am going to ML to you before you lose all those pounds, you've got another thing coming fata$$." (BTW, this WAS a joke because she is FAR from fat at 100 lbs...no chance of her taking real offense at this). She laughed a lot and gave me the little "Oh REALLY smile." I muttered "It's true, I have standards you know." and walked off with a big smile. It was a good little exchange and I THINK may have helped diffuse what has been somewhat of a contentious subject in the past (the gym, working out, her weight, etc.)
Who knows, but as Mama has been saying, what is going on now FEELS like progress and I think while I feel like progress is being made I will probably keep on keepin on.
The whole "looks" thing can be touchy with women, and men. My H said, when I complimented him, it sounded insincere, b/c I HAD to say it. OK, where does that leave me? I also think it was b/c he was in REPLAY of MLC and frankly didn't hear anything I said as good.
But, I got a BIG lesson from your post about the "I'm too fat" conversation with W. I also tend to do the same thing with H's compliments, and he gets hurt and angry. He has said "when I say you're beautiful, listen, don't blow it off, that's mean." WOW. Big wake up call for me.
The deal is, women don't care what MEN think about their looks....they care more about what WOMEN and THEY THEMSELVES think about their looks. We are MUCH more critical. As far as OM...it's a fact of life. When someone else says you're pretty, it perks you more than the person who HAS TO say it to you (your spouse). I'm SURE if you met a pretty woman today that complimented you, it would perk you more than if W said it (OK, maybe now W saying it would be a REALLY NICE perk, but you get the point).
I LOVED your approach recently about the working out. My H did the same thing "I think you look great, but if you want to work out, I would be happy b/c I care about your health." That made a huge difference for me. He then started to gently (not in a disappointed way or anything) help me start working out, b/c he knew it was a goal of mine, not a goal of HIS. This was key...the support but acknowledgement that it was still MY goal and not his vision of a prettier W. All the while, he showered me with compliments on my progress, eating healthier, and how my body changed. That was GREAT.
So, what you said was great. You care about her HEALTH and her wanting this to be happy with HERSELF. Remember, she's not saying these things to you b/c she cares about what YOU think of her, it's more about how she feels about herself right now.
If you want to be really clever, and incorporate more "us" time and her goal of working out, how about walks each night with the family? Joining a gym with daycare and going with her? My workouts with H meant a lot...it was my way to spend time with him in the mornings when he had a hectic schedule (and he sacraficed to do this as well, as it made him a little later to work in the mornings). It made us feel that we were getting healthy TOGETHER....plus you get a huge boost in energy when working out and it's nice to share that with W.
Um... as far as "family" gym time, remember, the gym is where the affair started and where they saw each other. He is a personal trainer so me going to the gym is really tough right now.
Quote: Like I said, it's complicated. I wish it didn't sound like a bunch of excuses. Maybe it is, but I just can't seem to make this work on my own and if she isn't willing to help, well...
But GH, that's what we're all telling you ... you MUST insist on change in this area if your marriage is to have any chance. When your W was alone with OM, she got to feel like a sexy woman. When she is with you, she's a just a mommy, because the kids are always there. She doesn't get to be her sexy self with you (not that she really understands this right now). I think, at some level, you know that you're going to have to get her to boogie on a dance floor if she's going to boogie between the sheets.
GH, you need to sit down with your W and say, "Let's work out a plan right now to spend more time doing fun things without the kids. I have several ideas: blah, blah, blah." If she doesn't agree to your ideas you must ask her what her action plan is and you must both agree on when things will be done. Do this in an upbeat way, so that she knows you aren't doing it because you're upset with her.
I know that this process of negotiation and agreement is not natural for you, because you've talked about your passive/aggresive past. If you are a true P/A person, you probably are most used to dropping hints and nagging and pouting, but you need to start initiating discussions that end with agreements and action plans. You simply cannot let W blow you off. You MUST insist on resolving conflicts instead of just enduring them endlessly.
(Not that I have practiced what I am preaching here)
The LORD is near to all who call on him, to all who call on him in truth." (Psalm 145:18)
(warning... LONGGGGGGGGGGG post ahead... maybe I'll break it up into two parts)
The weekend was good. Saturday was mostly about the launch of my W's side business selling indian imports. She was stressed as hell and since we had S6's basketball game in the morning, there was little time to get ready for her thing at 4:00. Leading up to this, I have tried to be 100% supportive. W has started down paths like this before and never really got anywhere, and I looked at my part in that and realized that while she is surely responsible for what she does, she never really had my support. I gave that to her this time and it made a difference. I helped a lot in getting the house ready and managed to actually THANK her for allowing me to do that (in the past my cleaning was never good enough and her trying to do it all herself was a bone of contention between us, her upset at feeling like she had to do it, me upset that she was such a "cleaning snob"). It was good leading up to people arriving. Normally in the past we didn't work together well in situations like that where there was a deadline. Stress usually made us turn on each other. None of that this time.
When her "marks" (lol) arrived, a few of them with kids in tow (all friends of my boys) I took in upon myself to say hi to the moms and take the kids upstairs to play. They didn't have to worry about them for the rest of their time. I played with them all (8 boys), got them fed, gave them desert, played with the little ones on the playset, played video games with the older ones, etc. I am not patting myself on the back, but I have to say that this was a MAJOR 180 for me as I am usually unsocial and pissy that I have to babysit in cases like this. I think coaching my basketball team has taught me a lot about dealing with groups of kids and I actually enjoy it now. It was a GREAT time and I know the moms had a great time too especially since they didn't really ever have to think about their kids for a few hours.
At the end of the event, they all thanked me for doing such a great job with the kids. Most importantly, my W made a HUGE deal out of what I did. She thanked me about 10 times throughout the night for helping so much, especially with the boys (remember, those ten thank you's may outnumber the number of thank you's I have gotten in the past couple of years... I exaggerate but the point is that my W is slow to hand those out). She seemed genuinely affected by my PMA. I have to say that, for the first time in MONTHS, there was no premeditation to it. I really didn't even think about it's effect on "us" or anything like that. I just did it and it felt great.
The best part was that W told me that her friends went on and on about how they wished their H's were like me and that they would NEVER do what I did without complaining the whole time (read:like I used to). They were all jealous.
The funny thing is right after she told me that, she started talking about what they said about the decoration in our house (something my W has been thinking about changing lately...she's not been liking the paint color, etc). She said they all loved it and wanted to know what color paint it was, etc. Her comment that was particularly interesting (about the decoration that is) was "I guess even though I picked it and likeds it, it helps when other people tell you they like to too. It makes you feel better when you are unsure." Hmmmmm, so that was about PAINT, huh?
Last night was good too. We didn't do much yesterday but again, I helped a lot with the kids. I had (oh, and this directly relates to my next post BTW) a event scheduled to photograph yesterday afternoon/evening. I was supposed to take S6 with me but I decided that before realizing it was on the night before the first day of school. W didn't like the idea of him being out late. I agreed and decided to take him for a bit in the afternoon (it was a basketball thing that ran from 4:00-10:00pm). As the day wore on, W was getting agitated. She had a lot to do to get ready for today and I asked her if my going with S6 was a big deal. She said no, but had that "look". I had a decision to make.
I DIDN'T want to do my old P/A thing of simply abandoning my plans, subjugating my wants/needs for her, but I DID agree that the timing was bad. When I decided to go, I didn't know it was on THIS Sunday. Part of me wanted to bail because S6 couldn't go anymore, and part of me wanted to bail to help the overall sitch... and then there was the part of me that felt bailing was bad DB, bad GAL and I should stick with my plans no matter what.
SO, I decided to do something I don't ever really do in cases like this. I just communicated. I told W that I really wanted to go but agreed the timing was bad. I said it would not really matter to the paper if I went (it wasn't an official assignment) but I still wanted to do it. I told her that in the past, instead of just talking about these things, she would just say "go" and I would, only to have her be pissed at me. I said "I want to handle these kinds of things above board. I don't like how it usually goes down, where you don't speak your mind and I just do my thing, seemingly insensitive to the situation. If you don't want me to do, please just say so and give me the chance to either go, knowing how you feel, or decide not to. Either way, I will make my own decision but it would be nice to know how you feel."
She didn't answer right away, but later on, when I had decided not to go (more because of the S6 sitch and the fact that I had a ton of wedding work to catch up on) she gave me a BIG hug and thanked me profusely for giving up something she knew I was really looking forward to in order to help out. I was kinda shocked. She usually doesn't show that kind of appreciation, and the fact that she acknowledged that the event was something I really wanted to go to was new as well. It's almost like she was paying attention.
In any event, I know it has been a problem in the past that I would just go to things like this, seemingly ignoring the situation at home (mind you, the situation was only "bad" rarely and I am gone to things a LOT). The 180 here was actually knowing it was a bad time, understanding that I didn't HAVE to go to this ONE event, on this day, and deciding to give it up to help my family. I can count on one hand the number of times I have done that in the past. My photo gigs are usually set in stone, even if they're not, if you know what I mean.
So, last night when W came to bed she came right over to me, wrapped herself around me and held ME. This was something I can't really remember happening before, at least in a LONG time. Sure, we have hugged and cuddled, but it was still me doing most of the work. This was all her (BTW, I told her that because I stayed home, she owed me a 15 minute back rub, lol). It was REALLY nice and probably the most intimate moment between us that I can remember, sex or no sex. I can't really explain it but there was an energy that I have not felt before. It made the past two days of "work" VERY worth it.
Last thing. On Saturday night we were talking about something and somehow got on the subject of sex. I must have said something suggestive (who, ME, lol). Her response was to smile and say "You won't be waiting long, I promise. I don't know why you have to be that way about it."
I don't know what "way" I was, but I like that answer, especially if it's true.
Well, we're off on another school year and that means early bed times and W with a TON of free time (hopefully less than last year with her business and all) so this COULD all come crashing down but for now, it's pretty ok... for now.
Ok, I had a thought last night and it was too late to post. I hoped I managed to remember it this morning, and I did.
Really, it was two thoughts. The first was the fact that for each of us, our 180's, if applied to the other's sitch, may look like something bad. Let me explain. If, in your sitch, you were always sitting around the house waiting on your W hand and foot, then not GALing and getting out of the house would be bad. If, as it is in my case, you were always gone then a 180 of being around more MIGHT not be a bad thing. I think a lot of us deal with this paradox. The fact is that one size DB shoe does not fit all. The goal is to CHANGE what YOU were doing that may have negatively impacted your R or life in general while realizing that IF you are going to be around the house more, it's because you want to do that for YOUR sake, not to cater to the whims of your WAS. Ah, another of those fine lines.
My second thought was that there seems to be the general consensus among us here that the only way to save our marriages is to get rid of the "old" marriage, filled with all the things that brought about it's demise, and replace it with a "new" marriage, built on the foundation of what we have learned about ourselves and our relationship with our spouses and held together by our not "allowing" ourselves NOR our spouses to return to the marriage unchanged. I have stated this myself MANY times. I now believe that to be only partially true, or at least in terms of it being the ONLY way to do this via DB. I now see another way, one that MAY be ill-conceived but after thinking about it, it's really how I have been doing things and SO FAR maybe it's working.
Conventional DB wisdom says out with the old and in with the new. It advocates a rebirth of sorts. What I now envision in my sitch is more like Groundhog's Day. I think MANY of us would say, after admitting MANY faults of ours AND our WAS, that in general, there WERE many good aspects of our marriages. We would also agree that DB's ideals of self change and the ability of OUR changes to spark change in the overall marriage, work. My contention is that, a-la Groundhog's Day the movie, that armed with our new, enlightened "selves" we can go back to the same scenarios in our marriage and affect change so that the outcomes are different. In effect, I am saying that I don't believe it's 100% important to get rid of the old M as much as it is to make 100% sure the new you is present in whatever M you have.
In my case, I can see MANY aspects of our old M still present, even aspects that MAY have been part of the problem. The difference is that MY approach is totally different so that while the overall marriage may be the same, my reaction to her within it, and my unilateral actions, change the dynamic. I think this is the essence of DB. Make no mistake, I am not saying she has no burden to change, but I can already see that she HAS changed both because of the affair (remember, part of what happens leading up to an affair, and then IN the affair is the WAS learns things about themselves that make them think their marriage is no good for them) and because of the changed dynamic between us. There is more communication, more intimacy outside the bedroom, and I firmly believe that once we get back "in" the bedroom again, there will be MUCH more spark between us.
I am not trying to reinvent the wheel, nor make excuses for how I do things. What I am trying to say is that I do NOT feel a need to demand or expect my W to make changes, or have some R talk where our new R is defined. I am comfortable existing in our old M as a new man. I am confident that if I can maintain my independent will to grow and move forward, I can infuse my old marriage with some new energy and allow what was already good about it, or rather, what worked for us in the marriage, to continue while casting the more negative elements to the side. I see her making changes and I see my commitment to MY growth as a catalyst for that. While I understand that her changing started LONG before I understood what was happening, and eventually led to a VERY negative thing in the affair, I can now help her continue changing and hopefully do it WITHIN our marriage, not without it. I may not have the power to change her, nor ANY control over her, but I believe that by keeping control over myself, I can at least help create an environment where we can both grow and if that doesn't happen, I know I will ALWAYS keep growing on my own.
This may be another argument of semantics but for me, I am really helped by thinking about things not as a total rebuild but a renovation of my marriage.
I have been struggling with this because while I do think it's generally bad to allow the old marriage to return, I think in SOME cases (maybe I am just fooling myself) with enough strong change from the LBS, many elements of the old marriage can remain intact.
Could be a pot of fool's gold, or the real thing, we'll have to wait and see. So far, so good.
