I agree with you Lil. What does is threatening to withdraw his supply (the supply he doesn't even use)?
These LD guys can be "turned on" and still take sex or leave it. They can be there with you naked and willing and STILL not be interested. Depends on the people and baggage involved. I can see myself gradually drifting away from wanting a sexual R with B and not feeling as bad at I used to feel, with some of the alternatives.
What is in Mr. K1'a mind, I have no idea. What is in Lil's bf's mind I can sort of guess what some of the dilemmas are for him.
My point is that the tasks we perform in order to make ourselves desirable and appealing to our mates DO make us desirable and appealing, but the mate still doesn't want to have sex. Lil. I did understand it that way. I posted what would satisfy me as a contrast to the picky stuff some SO's get lavished on them and still sex doesn't happen often enough.
Even if these things increase satisfaction in the marriage, fill the spouse's Love Tank, Sometimes I do them hoping the r will improve. Sometimes I do these things because it makes me feel better, more like a H I have in mind, and because it hopefully makes up for some of my shortcomings.
the thing that makes the LD spouse occasionally reach for sex (i.e., ACT on the desire) is a mystery and outside our control I have to agree with you here.
Schnarch wants people to know that just because a SO is LD with you, the SO might be HD with another person, so don't think a LD SO would never cheat. Schnarch also gives examples of some excuses the LD used to lessen the hurt to the HD SO.
Karen1 said I doubt he sees himself as LD - he just has lots of reasons why sex isn't convenient, or doesn't make sense or whatever he thinks of. I have had times where the weight of the world seemed to be my responsibility. Tax days, kids dental or dance bills, working 45 hours on commission and getting paid about 25 hours worth of work.
When I was a kid, things got turned off. We did without. When I got M, those things were not going to happen no matter what, so I frequently carried the internal burden that put sex after some other things on occasions.
I have attempted to analyze whether I produce any similar dynamic in my R. I have even gone so far as to ask H questions along those lines. He totally denies negative feelings toward me on any of those topics. I suppose you ask him what he sees as sexy with in you. The MWD KLA CD stress on reinforcing the positives in a R.
How much of your R could be your H sees himself as sexy but he doesn't want to come off as sex crazed, even though you want some sex crazing.
Some females have a good girl image they stick to, well so do some guys. They have a decent male picture in their head. Investigate what your H's decent male picture consists of, what it's limits look like, and some of his ethics when he was a teenager or in his early 20's. You might get a peek at what goes on in his mind.
I could tell you about my mental pictures but your H/bf/SO are different.
I agree with this mystery. Can you identify anything in your marriage now that is different from when you were dating or first got married?
My theory is that something in the R dynamic causes the LD person to submerge their sexuality and a new R works differently thereby removing that roadblock (temporarily or permanently).
I agree with this.
I was LD in my former M. Of course, my version of LD equated to about once/week and only really interested every couple of weeks. However, my total effort level in the sexual arena was low. I felt very emotionally threatened in the R, unsupported, on shaky ground and therefore, sex didn't make the priority list. I also had lost huge amounts of respect for ex-H which didn't exactly make him appear delectable.
Why was this? One possibility is that you had some issues which popped up to spoil the mix between you two. He probably had the same, but since you don’t know what was going on in his mind, all you know is that he wasn’t giving you what you wanted – he stopped soothing you.
I think this concept is not given enough discussion on this board. Why is it that a woman married to a known criminal, killer, or some other horrible type of person can fall in love with him? Sure that woman may be sick herself and is desperately looking for love, but that horrible man she loves is giving her the soothing and compassion that allows her to look past all his evil traits. In fact, she may not even see why he is vilified. Is it that love is blind (by this I mean is there a FOO type denial in the love struck person that refuses to let them “see”) or is it that certain specific soothing from someone else can create such powerful euphoria that “seeing” is not even considered by the love struck?
I have attempted to analyze whether I produce any similar dynamic in my R. I have even gone so far as to ask H questions along those lines. He totally denies negative feelings toward me on any of those topics.
The problem I have with this in theory is that the other person may not have a clue whether s/he has negative emotions. In fact, define a negative emotion. Negative to you may not be negative to me. So his denial may be true for him, but not for you.
To me, this is one of those unanswerable questions because the answer lies somewhere in H's psyche. I doubt he sees himself as LD - he just has lots of reasons why sex isn't convenient, or doesn't make sense or whaever he thinks of.
The eternal mystery is not why is my spouse LD but why is my spouse LD with me?
To me, this is the same as Lil’s sitch, though her bf seems further off the scale. Both he and your H seem to have shut down emotionally, not unlike my wife. All three of these people have experienced severe trauma as kids, so this reaction makes sense. Too much intimate emotion gets really uncomfortable, in the same way that Corri and Honeypot were saying they have a hard time receiving compliments. Corri and HP have each shut down in their past and I doubt they could handle really close intimacy at those times.
This is a possible symptom of trauma, is it not? Since you are a therapist, have you looked into how you can desensitize you H to his discomfort in feeling intimate emotions? In other words, is there some specific type of soothing he needs, that you are not giving, that would turn him on if only you knew about it, the type of special soothing that comes with a new affair that might prompt him to swing from the chandelier? Or is it easier for you to just stop wanting?
Take GEL for example. What I saw in her actions was to circumvent her H’s fantasy barriers and give him exactly what he wanted but was afraid to ask for. A passive, timid person may have never felt confident or powerful enough to go for what s/he wanted, or accept it when s/he got it. But they still dream about it. That inner desire still burns, but the reality is so different, they detach. GEL gambled correctly in giving her H what he secretly desired but was too scared to go for or accept. So he got anxious (and still does I’m sure), but she desensitized him to his nervousness in feeling good about what he was now getting. Luckily, her real wants were in line with his real wants. In fact, I think most couples have the same real wants or they never would have come together. But along the way, defenses push those wants way down and each person compromises for less – the tyranny of the lowest common denominator, remember?
The desire for more never goes away but the resignation and acceptance that this is all you are worthy of just grows and grows. The increasing gap between the two creates resentment. What GEL did, IMO, was to jump the gap and bring reality and fantasy together. Her task is getting both her and her H desensitized to the higher emotions that come from living this new intimate “fantasy” life.
My H and I got caught in a battle of wills. I remember early on I wanted H to do something erotic for me ( undress me) and he got all defensive...he just wanted me to be undressed and ready and take things from there. I remember feeling bullied by his defensive reaction and shut down ( when I should have asserted what I wanted/needed). H could have been more responsive to my desires but didn't want ( or couldn't) put in that extra effort. Years later he blames me for the rejection. We just weren't working together. Too much insecurity, too much immaturity. In day to day interactions, I see how my H does this same bullying thing (for example, he wanted certain tile in the bathroom and didn't hear my legitimate concerns). The sad thing is that I was willing to acquiesce. So this is an area I still need to work on. Like Jenny, I can be more headstrong in other areas in my life ( coincidentally my mom also metntioned this to me, how tough I can be with her, but with hubby I back down. She hates seeing this).
Anyway, this is a long way of saying that there is some sort of dysfunction operating in the relationship and it impedes sexual growth. I think the men who are LD really struggle with something internally...another relationship may be easier, if the other partner is more satisfied with what is being offered. And come to think of it, that's how I was in the beginning of my relationship with H, thinking he was wonderful with what he supllied. The problem became more apparent when I needed something more, triggering the pathology. It all takes work and the right kind of help to undo things...both partners need to be invested in change.
If you both can figure out the dysfunction,it gives the opportnity to make small changes that will stretch both partners. The motivation has to be there, though.
___________________________________________________________ Karen1 said I doubt he sees himself as LD - he just has lots of reasons why sex isn't convenient, or doesn't make sense or whatever he thinks of. I have had times where the weight of the world seemed to be my responsibility. Tax days, kids dental or dance bills, working 45 hours on commission and getting paid about 25 hours worth of work.
When I was a kid, things got turned off. We did without. When I got M, those things were not going to happen no matter what, so I frequently carried the internal burden that put sex after some other things on occasions. _________________________________________________________
Thanks for that. It really rings true. H's family had serious financial challenges (mostly due to his parents divorce). On top of that he experienced a bankruptcy as a young person and REALLY worked to put himself and his credit back together. He is ultra-responsible around money issues and times when finances are tight definately affect his libido.
Cobra:
_________________________________________________________ I was LD in my former M. Of course, my version of LD equated to about once/week and only really interested every couple of weeks. However, my total effort level in the sexual arena was low. I felt very emotionally threatened in the R, unsupported, on shaky ground and therefore, sex didn't make the priority list. I also had lost huge amounts of respect for ex-H which didn't exactly make him appear delectable. Also, around this time he started to experience issues with drugs which caused him to have trouble "finishing" in the budoir - he was embarrassed about the problems, didn't connect those with his habits and shamed me instead. That went on for about seven years before I left. Don't get me wrong, it wasn't "poor pitiful me", I had a life outside my M which saved me and my self esteem, as a med student, then a doc he was rarely home so the hours of misery/day weren't nearly what some people experience.
Why was this? One possibility is that you had some issues which popped up to spoil the mix between you two. He probably had the same, but since you don’t know what was going on in his mind, all you know is that he wasn’t giving you what you wanted – he stopped soothing you _________________________________________________________
No - it is more complicated. I wasn't LD until about 3 years into the M, which was about six into the R. It was about this time that my ex-H's mental illness (Bipolar II/Borderline Personality Disorder and a few others) began to surface but I did not recognize it as such. It just seemed like I couldn't do anything right. One minute he wanted to fcku my brains out and the next he was saying I needed a boob job to be attractive to him. One minute I was a wonderful wife, mother, partner and the next I was a lousy housekeeper etc...
I do agree that my H is a trauma survivor of a sort. Some happened as a young person in his family, some not until he was older (suicides of his father and brother). There doesn't seem to have been sexual trauma but emotional trauma and with the overlay of Catholicism it leads to a strange dynamic around sex. Unfortunately, my attempts to up the eroticism/desensitize him in my M have been met with confusion, embarrassment and sometimes outright rejection.
What was different about our early R? Not much really. At that time I thought we were just "getting to know each other", or that he just wasn't "comfortable yet" and so I would bravely plow through and play erotic/flirtatious little games with him. Sometimes he would play too. Sometimes not. We had sex more often but still not as much as I wanted to. Then, the sh*t hit the fan when his best friend died just after Christmas the year we got married and he shut down totally. I suggested postponing things etc... but he was insistent that he was just grieving and that if I was patient all would be well. In my view, we have never really recovered from that shut down except for short honeymoon periods.
Is it just easier to shut myself down? Absolutely. _________________________________________________________ A passive, timid person may have never felt confident or powerful enough to go for what s/he wanted, or accept it when s/he got it. But they still dream about it. That inner desire still burns, but the reality is so different, they detach. ________________________________________________________
I agree with this and it hurts me to think this is so. However, unlike Gel's H my H will deflect a lot of things that I'm pretty sure he wants. I mean strangely, I could grab my H at nearly any time and give him a bj (and have) and he LOOOVES it, he loves it if I talk a little dirty to him but won't reciprocate, he loves it for me to be on top and be very adventurous about it (use your imagination). However, there is never a time that he grabs me to go down on me (used to in the early R), doesn't undress me (did a couple of times in the early R), and will never flip me over on the bottom and do to me what I did to him on top. These are tame things - I have trouble believing he doesn't want to do them. This is pretty specific so I guess it leaves me wondering if the entirety of his sexual interest involves me making all the moves and maybe that is what his fantasy life is about too. Maybe he just isn't the guy who fantasizes about grabbing a random girl and fcuking her brains out. Maybe he has no desire to tie someone up and have his way. Or maybe he does and that is something I don't provide since it involves him taking action. I honestly have no idea and he won't talk about it.
My H and I got caught in a battle of wills. I remember early on I wanted H to do something erotic for me ( undress me) and he got all defensive...he just wanted me to be undressed and ready and take things from there. I remember feeling bullied by his defensive reaction and shut down ( when I should have asserted what I wanted/needed). __________________________________________________________
I have so been there. I'm sorry someone else has too. To my everlasting shame I once asked H to go down on me (we were already into some activity). He pretended like he didn't hear me. laid with his arms down by his side. I have never asked again - although once or twice I have just sat on his face and let him figure it out. The thing is he did used to initiate it when we were dating and yes, I do have good personal hygiene.
This has been an interesting thread this go around. I hadn't posted in a while because I was busy and my thread had become pretty routine.
Just for my understanding, how does borderline/bipolar suddenly “kick in” at some point in time? My understanding is that someone either does or does not have this disorder, so how can it spontaneously “kick in.” I do understand that it can be chemically based, so maybe an injury or disease could cause it, but isn’t this rare? I also know that this condition can be environmentally induced. I would think that requires some pretty severe trauma and the symptoms are more a way for the mind to defend itself, by detaching from reality. Is this correct?
Lets say for argument sake that your H is really a severe case of borderline/bipolar and it is not chemical or genetic based, but trauma induced. Would the suicide of his brother and father be enough to cause this? Other people have survived traumas as bad, or worse, without developing this problem, so he must have some genetic disposition toward it (obviously since his dad and brother were depressed enough to commit suicide) or there was other sever trauma that preceded their deaths, or both. Has he worked through all this? I would think he has, but my W says the same thing and I know she has not, at least as for as her trauma affects intimates relationships.
The thing that rings with me is that he relapsed with the death of his friend. Can the brain chemicals get even more out of whack with an event like this, or do they stay at the same imbalance? If the latter, then could his relapse be due to unresolved issues that severely triggered his fears? I don’t know… just wondering.
I am also wondering about his refusal to take the initiative sexually. Keeping in mind his trauma as a backdrop, he sure sounds like a terrified kid. It sounds like one thing for him to be led into having sex, but put him in charge and he just gets petrified.
If this is so, then it has nothing to do with you. But like on the Dog Whisperer, could your anxiety, fears and hesitancy to lead be sending further signals of anxiety to him? In other words, could your lack of self esteem cause him to further doubt his self esteem? He is in fear because he can sense that you are in fear, KWIM?
I know this may not be a good possibility for you to consider, since it places a lot of responsibility on your shoulders to help him, but if there is any credence to it, at least there is the possibility of a way out. It may take a lot of work, but it is not hopeless.
He pretended like he didn't hear me. laid with his arms down by his side. I have never asked again
Karen, this broke my heart. But can you be sure he really DID hear you? Maybe he didn't? It seems like something that's caused a lot of hurt, or to use your own word, shame. Maybe you could try to address it so you can at least understand what his issues are with it? Keep it an arm's length discussion if it makes you more comfortable, ie. not about you just about the act in general.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
Sorry there seems to be some confusion. EX-H has the borderline and bipolar. And yes, it is extremely common for it not to really manifest until late teens/early twenties and in the presence of a stressor (in this case med school). Mental illness signs may have been there in the early teens but were able to be controlled. It is unusual to diagnose a severe d/o like that in a child. In fact, a child will get a diagnosis like conduct disorder or impulse control and will often later get a more severe diagnosis. Some people show no evidence of diisorder until young adulthood. Ex-H and I met in college and married upon graduation. Does that help.
With the story about ex-H I was trying to illustrate how our M didn't end because of a simple lack of sooting one another. However, the trauma that occured to me in that M definately weighs in to how vulnerable I make myself now.
Current H does not have any diagnosable mental health condition although he is prone to mild/moderate depression under certain condtions like someone's death. He is the person who experienced the suicides of his father and brother when he was in his 30's. Obviously, depression runs biochemically in his family.
With current H I was attempting to illustrate that sex has always been an issue but just less of one early on. Early on I wasn't getting nearly what I wanted. The death of his friend changed everything for better than a year. Then, it slowly got better but never to the level it was (which was still low level for me).
However, you made a good point that my anxiety probably exacerbates his.
Heather,
Yes. It is heartbreaking and I have wanted to approach the question but every time I start to it sticks in my throat. I mean literally sticks. I fear that the day I blurt it out it will come out as an accusation, come out angry, come out wrong. My sadness about this is profound. it makes me not want to try.
So, H and I were talking last night. He had mentioned that I had a "hard time" with my birthday. I was stunned. I was/am having a hard time but my birthday surely wasn't the issue. in short, I am being slammed with work, meanwhile there are a couple of people who want my job - you all know that game, DD9 is having some "tween" issues (emotional, weird to deal with, mourning the divorce), I may have Graves disease (I see the endo again on Monday) AND my H hasn't wanted to have sex with me for a month (Did I say month? I mean he rarely, in general, wants to have sex with me). And he thinks it is because I turned 39 - good God! Oh yeah, and i am pregnant. I am thrilled to be pregnant but I am stil pregnant - hormonal, increasingly uncomfortable and concerned that everything will be ok with the baby.
Quote: He had mentioned that I had a "hard time" with my birthday. I was stunned. I was/am having a hard time but my birthday surely wasn't the issue
That sounds typical, what you are thinking and what another person sees is a common disconnect. The OP doesn't see things you see and sees some of what you see differently.
I can be painting windows and cut my finger but be more upset because the ladder broke than my finger being cut, but all BB sees is the cut finger.
Quote: there are a couple of people who want my job
Karen1, I have been there so many times when I was working on commission. It is a feeling I don't want to repeat. I did it for 4 years during a down cycle in the automobile industry.
All I can say is be better to yourself than I was to myself.
Graves' disease is the most common form of hyperthyroidism. It occurs when your immune system mistakenly attacks your thyroid gland and causes it to overproduce the hormone called thyroxine. This abnormal immune response can also affect the tissue behind your eyes as well as your skin, usually on your lower legs and feet.
When you have too much thyroid hormone in your system, your body's metabolism rate can increase by 60 percent to 100 percent because thyroxine regulates your cells' metabolism. A higher metabolism can lead to a number of health problems, such as an irregular heartbeat or anxiety.
Ellie / kml on the forum had thyroid problems and might be able to help you with some answers.
((( Karen1 ))) Sorry you have the added stress and problems.
Lou
H is from Pluto. I am from another Galaxy It might feel that way but I think you are in the same galaxy as most of us here.