Re Paul Why can't we just be colleagues?" She has hinted that she feels something like this and that she refrains from telling me some of her innermost feelings because she is afraid she might hurt me. In a sense I agree. I don't want her to tell me that she does not love me. So what if she is she "loves you but is not in love with you" right now, in the past or for some time period in the future.
You still have emotional needs and wants, and I assume she does too. How are hers being met. Are/is work, work friends, parents a substitute for meeting her needs. Ask her. It is tough to do believe me.
to counter her claim about not wanting to go to a C, read this web site and fill out these forms No cost and she doesn't have to talk to anyone.
Here is a poster's advice from MarriageBuilders.com
MB=MarriageBuilders
LB=Love busters take Love units (LU) from a Love Bank (LB)?
Quote: We all tend to think that if we love each other, we will just 'know' how to meet each other's needs. Or that is our spouse really loved us, they would know. However often we miss more than we realize...it takes good communication and feedback to really understand what lights the other up, and it takes practice to make doing those things a solid habit.
Learning to meet each others needs and work together to maintain romantic love takes a little work. MB has a very good plan that you and your spouse can use to re-create (or to safeguard) romantic love. Here are some guidelines to getting started:
Then go to the Questionnaires.. Marriage Builders® Forms and Questionnaires click on the left side of the page. Print out the LoveBuster(LB) and Emotional Needs (EN)Q'aires. You should usually start with LBs. (A common mistake is to say "we don't really fight much, we'll just skip the LB questionnaire". But, LBs come in more than one form. And, meeting emotional needs without stopping the LBs first is kind of like pouring water into a bucket with a hole in the bottom.)
Each of you fill out the LB q'aire, and then share your answers. Set some ground rules first...that you will not interrupt each other, except to ask clarifying questions. That you won't argue back & forth...this is your spouse sharing their perceptions. Remember that this is NOT meant to be criticism, but a sharing of info that each spouse/partner needs to know to stop habits that drain good feelings (like spending hours online, yelling, or what have you). Start by working together to eliminate LBs...spend a week or two on that. You may have to help each other recognize when they are LBing at first; that is OK (just do it without LBing yourself ).
The next step is to fill out the EN q'aire and share that...again, without getting angry or defensive...you are simply sharing info on how your spouse/partner can help you be more in love. After you have shared the info, pick the top 3 ENs for each person, and develop an agreement to meet them (or at least move closer to meeting them, if you cannot fully meet them right now) in VERY SPECIFIC ways (i.e., not "show me more affection" but "hug me each day before you leave and when you get home"; not "act more interested in sex" but "have sex x times a week, and initiate one or more of those times").
Use the POJA (Policy of Joint Agreement) to negotiate where there are big gaps.
After a week or two, give each other some feedback and fine tune the plans as needed. It takes some time and some feedback to learn new habits. Over time, you will both begin to meet each other's needs better, and build compatibility and love.
It may sound a bit mechanical, but it truly helps you both build a solid habit of the kind of behavior that feeds romantic love, and teaches both partners to demonstrate their care for the other in a way that makes the partner FEEL loved.
Finally, a word on what to do if your spouse is too emotionally withdrawn to participate in the plan. Work on yourself first. Ask if he/she will fill out the questionnaires so that you can improve. If not, go thru them and try to guess what your partner might say. Work on eliminating your own LBs first, and try to meet the ENs that the withdrawn partner will allow you to. The goal is NOT to do this all by yourself...no one can do that for long without draining their own lovebank. The goal is to get the ball rolling, demonstrate to your partner that maybe the marriage IS worth participating, and then get them to join you in MBing together.
Good luck!!!
Kathi
Paul, I know your situation is different, but I still think there are many biological similarities in your M as in most Ms, cultural differences aside. But don't let the cultural differences be a roadblock unnecessarily. Don't let cultural differences dictate and rule what you do or don't do. I think love is love and the need and place for love and affection is fairly universal. What did people do 10,000 years ago? I think lots of those instincts are still with us.
The down side is, I wasn't around 10,000 years ago, so I don't have the answers. I still subscribe to biology
One last thought, if your W wants to be so Japanese, ask her to go to to a "Love Hotel" with you for some fun. That was just some words to humor you and letting you know I am behind you.
I am pasting another reply here instead of on the book thread.
Re: Paul is my quest for improved communication and increased sharing of common interests so foreign to her that I should abandon my efforts on these issues?
I wouldn't abandon my wants, needs, and don't be afraid to break a few eggshells along the way.
I don't know why so many Christians are so up in arms about
Paul, My thing is I don't think we are supposed to know some of these things. The way I hear/see about some great discoveries, 10-20 years from now or when they are discovered, the holes start to show up in the hype.
My personal opinion is, these revelations are not important, the big picture is. It's how we treat other people along the lines of the "golden rule."
They are less spontaneous and demonstrative in public (though not in the home!)
so???? You want to sleep with her at home. What is so different about that? That is not in public.
Thought not at home shoots down some of her reasons for the distance between you two.
Paul, does your W go for a man's looks, physical charismatics, in a big way, some thing like a guy looking at a swimsuit model?
I know you said you wanted to be fitter and lose some weight. How is that going? It weight or condition an issue with you or for your W?
I am 6"3" and weigh 265 and I went to a few weight reduction meetings TOPS® (Take Off Pounds Sensibly) Some of the people there have kept the weight off for a long time. It is just a thought Paul.
I saw a web post about breath freshness. The guy was usinf 2%hydrogenperoxide and an equal amount of water for an oral rince.
Re Paul she, a flight attendant, wants to relocate to Japan so that she will have more desirable flying lines.
Could you do that for a couple of years to try it.
Locally, one oil refinery sends their employees to other countries for a year. Oil company pays for everything, and the owner's house is managed by a high class property manager and rented out for the year.
Most of the people that go to the foreign country come back and have good stories to tell. Their house is well taken care of while they are gone and most of the families are glad they went.
Hey just some trite advice/insight that I try to follow for myself.
Sometimes people are unpleasable no matter what you do, the great thing about this for you is that once you realize that nothing will please them you can do what ever YOU want because it makes no sense to try to please that person.
I will assume that the people involved here are intelegent, passionate folks who find themselves in difficult relationships in which they are trying there best to improve with intelegence, feeling, compassion and respect. As I am new and everyones strories are unknown, please excuse if I insult or repeat things that have already been discussed.
That was kind of you to make such a thoughtful post. I have downloaded the forms and will ask W to join me in filling them out.
I actually have no idea about what kind of looks my W is attracted to. She occasionally mentions that she likes something I am wearing, but she never says that another man looks good. She has said disparaging things about the process of my ML to her.
Your idea of asking her how her needs are being met is a good one. I'm not sure she even thinks along those lines, but we will find out.
Re Martelo Sometimes people are unpleasable no matter what you do, the great thing about this for you is that once you realize that nothing will please them you can do what ever YOU want because it makes no sense to try to please that person.
Martelo, exactly where I am now, and like Paul was walking on eggshells to avoid some problems, but confronting other problems big time. I can it was confusing to my W/BB at times.
Back to the unpleasable thought. BB wants to start attending church again. I asked her what was wrong with the last 3 "we" went to and the last 6 I attended. BB had her list and the main item was "the people were not friendly." I suggested she had as much or more to play in the unfriendly part as the church members did. My point is some people want the other people in the R to do most of the work, and by gosh, you better do it their way.
I think the same thing plays out in M also. I see a very narrow vision/mental picture of what constitutes fairness in relationships.
I will assume that the people involved here are intelligent Some very intelligent, especially when it comes to certain elements of R's. Collectively, this is a very intelligent group. The main thing I see is the group's willingness to learn new things.
passionate folks Yes, very caring and passionate.
folks who find themselves in difficult relationships Some R's are almost normal. Some R's have a few lopsided elements. Some R's have some serious problems.
folks who .....are trying there best to improve with intelegence, feeling, compassion and respect That is true.
I am here for insight to my situation that I miss and to avoid doing too much or too little sometimes.
One problem I see is almost everyone gets in a slump and looks at their own situation more negatively than it really is at times. Then a short time goes by and the same poster is almost elated. In reality not much has changed.
I think the ups and downs are more to do with little things in the R that indicate to the individual poster, something is moving in a firm direction, either for some good or bad outcome.
I see that progress takes a long time in some cases and the typical state of a relationship is more of the same most of the time. Those little changes are so infrequent sometimes, that they become more valuable/higher worth than they really should be. Sometimes that is because the poster is such a deficit state from reading and hoping the R will improve, any small change can be interpreted as a turning point.
As far as the forum goes, we support and encourage each other. That is so important.
As I am new and every ones stories are unknown, please excuse if I insult or repeat things that have already been discussed. Well Martelo, I am going to bust you in a friendly way.
One of the things we try to instill on the forum is don't apologize for things that are normal. No one can know all of the history and stories posted on the forum.
One goal of the forum is to encourage people to have a "can do attitude" and positive mental attitude (PMA).
Another thing is most people want and like honest opinions stated in posts as long as the opinions are written in a civil way and are based on some experience or knowledge the writer has.
We have a poster that was having marital and self-esteem problems and was making progress. Everyone was a big help to him, that is till he forgot to mention he was still involved with a former OW.
Some strong assumptions were made, some opinions given, and I think the forum as a whole is in better condition.
To me it is like this. If you see me and my fly is down, and don't tell me, you are not a really good friend. To me a good friend will tell me things I need to know and not worry if he or she is going to embarrass me or her/himself. I.E. were tough enough to hear the truth, know there is more than one answer to a problem, and knows no one is perfect or infallible.
Quote: Back to the unpleasable thought. BB wants to start attending church again. I asked her what was wrong with the last 3 "we" went to and the last 6 I attended. BB had her list and the main item was "the people were not friendly." I suggested she had as much or more to play in the unfriendly part as the church members did.
Lou, the appropriate response to her comment was, "Oh." Possibly augmented by: "That's a good idea."
SO FREAKIN' WHAT if she's been to fifty thousand other churches and didn't like them. So what if she was unfriendly? sowhatsowhatsowhat.... why do you keep trying to remind her of her inconsistencies, faults, failings, lack, etc. How is that good for either of you? It doesn't change her. It just makes you look like a nitpicker. Why do you keep trying to show how wrong she is? Who cares? Who cares if she goes to church or not? You don't have to go. Stop being her policeman. Not only because it doesn't work, but because it doesn't look good on YOU.
And do you see the irony in this comment of yours
Quote: My point is some people want the other people in the R to do most of the work, and by gosh, you better do it their way.
YOU are wanting her to do the church thing YOUR way.
Some congregations ARE friendlier than others, and personally I've attended too many religious institutions to count! YOUR Identity System demands that she do church your way... or that she find some consistent way of doing it. She doesn't have to. And your Identity System can just stop bothering about it. It doesn't matter.
You're making yourself nuts, Lou. You're too good a man and too young to go crazy!
No I don't have to be BB's police man. I don't want to be.
It is usually BB that wants to go some place new. I make friends at the old place, get involved and then she paints a picture like the people I see as friendly, to her they are some what self-centered, or someone puts up a volunteer list and BB sees that as asking too much of the members. After that happens, BB wants to drop out.
If I go alone, she acts insecure sometimes. I guess I have to not care as much what BB thinks or feels.
You're making yourself nuts, Lou. You're too good a man and too young to go crazy! What I am feeling is, "here we go again," but not in a "nuts/crazy" fashion. Who knows, maybe BB will like the bigger congregation setting.
This time I made a call before we went to anything and asked about non-religious activities and men's groups. There are two I am going to attend by myself, and one as a couple.
You're too good a man and too young to go crazy! Thanks Lil.
Aw, c'mon, Lou, I only slugged you with a big ol' feather pillow... HARD, but only a feather pillow. You just got finished telling Martelo that you wanted to know if your fly was down.
Do you have to go to church with her? If she says she wants to start going to church, why is that YOUR signal to call and find out about groups and plan on going to a couple of groups yourself. Can't she just go by herself?
If you do something alone and she "acts" insecure, let her act that way. Why to you need to rescue her? Is the experience actually causing her any harm?
You're setting yourself up. I predict that in a few weeks you'll be posting (complaining) the following: "BB does not like the new church. The people are too <choose one: unfriendly, friendly, stuck-up, nosy, high-class, low-class>. But *I* really like the group that I've been going to, and that makes her jealous because I've made friends and she hasn't. So now I have to stop going to the group because she wants to quit going to that church."
