Muddle, it looks like you have a handle on things. You have something to focus on now and I don't think it will be a cheeseless tunnel. It seems like you two were in a power struggle; each one having to be right all the time. Now you seem to get it; both ways are "right" and being happy does not mean being "right", right?
Mama's right on, Muddle. I can't help but laugh sometimes when I read the "conflicts" you have with your W. It sounds just like mine at home. How to stack the dishwasher! Been there, I do it her way now. I too try to "validate" her now by following her advice a lot more rather than doing it my way. For example, she is very concerned about me leaving on rainy days w/o an umbrella. She will call out "don't forget your umbrella" and before I would say "I don't need one" , now I just take it and say thanks. I have recognized that this his her way of saying "I care" and when it is shoved back in her face, what is the message? It is that your ideas are bad and I don't need your caring. Bad, bad, bad! Do I need the stupid umbrella, NO but I need my M. In Michelle's book she says that when your W is nagging you that means she still cares. Your W is still nagging, Muddle. I think she so badly wants an excuse to make this work together. She's screaming "make me love you again". This of course is just a feeling off the top of my head but I think that's why she keeps hounding you. Of course, it seems insane to be hounding and picking at someone she says she doesn't love blah blah blah but....I think you are heading down the right track now.
Thanks guys - I really think you're both right. In fact, this power struggle thing was a concern of mine right off the bat when this all started, and I just didn't know how to resolve it. I guess I have to see what she's really saying (I do understand her better than I have demonstrated to her - it's just that I get too caught up explaining away her behavior that bothers/hurts me rather than looking for the real message, what her real needs are.
I'll never win the power struggle if I fight against her. Holding my own and standing alone is just doing more of exactly that which she resents me for. I need to show her I can treat her the way she wants to be treated, show her that I understand and support how she feels. I still have trouble seeing how I can initiate action to demonstrate this, but reacting in a way that does makes a lot more sense now.
The fact that she seems to be screaming at me to make her feel loved, to make her want to stay bewilders me. I think she does want to find a real reason to do so. I think she needs to feel like she's really special, and that she'll never be taken for granted again. I need time to be consistant with this, and I think I will have it. I need to be consistant in my focus, and not allow my perspective to get clouded. Hard, persistant work.
I smell some cheese down here. . .
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
I just wanted to make one more comment about my perspective shift. I realized while I was posting to GH just now that I have a ton to learn from my W about myself. I have been resistant to really look at a lot of what she's frustrated with me about, partially because of fear that I might not be able to overcome these issues, partly because I feel that I'm ok with myself, so why should I change and partially because she's the one who's screwing things in our M, so the problem lies with her, she just has to come to realize it. She's right about a lot. She's an intelligent person, and she's really perceptive. The improvements that she's nagging me to make are one's that will benefit me in or out of the R, and if I decide to take them on, I'm looking to her input as input, I'm not caving to her demands in order to save the M. This is an important understanding for me, because I don't know what will happen in the M, but I'm with my W for a reason, and that's because I respect her, and I felt that we could grow together. Her perspective is something I was looking forward to having for my entire life, but if I only get to appreciate it for another few months, I want to make damn sure I look for all the beneficial parts of it, and don't discard it because of my fear or hurt.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Muddle, I am 100% with you on the "doing things her way sometimes instead of having to do it my way" and tying that in with my need to be right all the time. I really do think I still do that a lot and it does make my W think I think she's stupid or that her ideas suck. I have NO problem now going into a situation and being secure enough to listen to her ideas and then implement them, especially if it's something I am doing for her, or with her. Why not, especially if it's just a "different" way not better or worse.
Like you said, it may be small things, but I think those are where the cracks in the armor start.
This is really where the battle is - in the little things. I can tell you, because I know the OM well, that the day to day stuff about him will drive W far more crazy than I do. Our "deep" interactions were always fine, and I don't think this was a problem until the A. It was the day to day living that created resentment. This is what she doesn't have the opportunity to see with OM, but what she has seen (VERY early on, BTW - because she won't talk about this stuff with me now, and I certainly don't want to ask) has led her to tell me that she sees that they have incompatabilities. So, while we are well connected (or were) at the deep level (I doubt she'll admit this now, but there's something that she's hanging on to, and I'm sure it's not JUST that we have a kid together), and she knows all about my intentions, my day to day ACTIONS tell her something very different. She has told me that my intentions and what my actions actually say are worlds apart. So, while I acknowledge that her perception has a lot to do with why she might not see my intentions in my actions, I have the ability to ensure that my actions are telling something as close to my intentions as my understanding of her perception will allow. Make sense?
I have a friend who's really been a huge help to me through this. He's been the most compassionate, understanding person I could imagine, actually thanking me for sharing and giving him the opportunity to learn from my life and my troubles when I feel like I am burdening him with my sitch. He is a buddhist, and works at a temple. I stopped by there yesterday and my eye was drawn to a paper posted on the wall - goals for September: Do what you say and say what you do. This struck me like it was a message from the universe confirming I have in fact tapped into something worthwhile and important. My friend told me that he had just put that paper up in the morning, and this made it feel even more like it was "intended" for my eyes. This is something that I need to be really vigilant about: the message my actions deliver. They will be far more telling of my deepest intentions, and no lie I tell myself or others will cover this up. I intend to do right by myself, and honor my W. I need to act this way always.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
I am still having trouble with finding my detached center in all of this. Yesterday I had a lot of opportunities to do things that needed doing around the house. W noticed some of them later, but she asked me why I was being all "lovey" in response to my acts of affection. I have been pretty consistantly kissed her on her head or cheek goodnight, etc. and have rubbed her shoulders or hugged her when she acted down. I told her that I was expressing myself to her, my feelings. She asked me why I was doing this when "it isn't that way between us". I told her that I still felt that way about her and she said "and my feelings don't matter."
So, given that she has been screaming and shouting that I have disregarded her feelings throughout our relationship (which to me looks like a teenage princess throwing a tantrum because they don't get what they want - the mindset that getting what they want will bring them happiness), I AM actually saying and doing this. There's no question that I am saying to her that no matter what she feels I think this M can work. No matter what she wants, I am going to fight for what I think is right. On the other hand, she's trying so hard to change me. She gets so annoyed that I don't do what she thinks makes sense. I just don't get it, and I don't know how to reconcile this. I want to take her feelings into account and I am committed now to consider her feelings as consequences to every decision I make, but I don't know how I can be considered considerate of her feelings when her feelings want us to be broken up so she can pursue her A more comfortably. I am hesitant to completely eliminate my displays of affection because I think it demonstrates my continued desire to make things work. I don't want to send the message that I'm OK with just being friends.
Since she's returned from the trip she's been totally cold to me. It's forced - because even kisses on the cheek are not reciprocated like she would do with a friend. I keep on pushing on, but it seems like she's determined to destroy whatever we have left.
Is my refusal to stop acting this way telling her that I refuse to let go of the M? Should I really stop all this? I have in the past, and then she pulls me a little closer. So now maybe it's best if I do again. It's like the dynamic between GH and his W, she'll only allow him so much distance before she makes him get closer again. I don't know now though if my W has made up her mind so much that she will let go entirely.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Muddle, Have you approached your W about the two of you going to a C? From your side of the story it looks like she has you jumping thru hoops for her. There is a breakdown somewhere in how you are communicating to eachother, maybe a C could help.
Since your W is clearly not committed to your marriage right now maybe you should back off in the affection dept. for a while. Continue to be positive and do positive things in the realm of your R. Continue to "fight" for your M, on your own. Do not bring up OM in any of your talks. Reread the section in DR under infedelity when the spouse refuses to end the affair. This will help keep you on your path. Hang in there bud!
Muddle, Just a quickie. If she doesn't want you hugging, touching etc don't do it. Sadly, that is how she feels right now. I know its hard but you gotta do it that way. My W told me she is OK with touching, hugging, kiss on the cheek...lucky me, I guess!
Counseling is something that we have tried - but back then things were much more up in the air. We have discussed talking to someone like a mediator to help us move things toward divorce. I don't want to head in this direction, but having a forum to openly discuss things might help. I haven't been resistant, but I also will not pursue an option that I don't want. I won't move us along towards divorce if I can help it. Stupid move? I don't know. But I refuse to do what I don't want to here.
I will stop all affection. I will continue to do what is right, but I feel taken advantage of. She does sort of have me jumping through hoops, and even though I look at it from a perspective of self improvement, the injustice of her taking everything I can give and giving nothing in return is frustrating. I will continue to do this because this is what I committed to do when I got married.
I think there's no doubt about her desire to have things be over, but she's overlooking a lot of reality in the process. So, it's not really a communication issue - I understand loud and clear from her words that she wants to end things, but her actions and demands say something very different to me. Maybe I'm projecting my hope onto her actions, but I don't think that someone who doesn't care anymore would demand of me what she does and act hurt when I do things that differ from her expectations of me. That doesn't make sense either. I hear her screaming that she wants me to change and make her feel something different. I hear it loud and clear. Is it reasonable? No, but I'm putting in the effort. I think I need to give the situation more time, but this has been going on for so long. I can't abandon her, but I can't enable her behavior by being the good husband and catering to her wants and desires forever either. I look to HHs thread sometimes and think that maybe that's more the approach I need to take, to stand strong and teach her a lesson about what life is going to be like without me. She's got someone now that takes the kid off her hands (the one she complains about having to spend time with), someone to do the shopping, someone to maintain the house, someone to be the great parent to her son while she resents him. She's got me to be the responsible one so she doesn't have to be. *oh yeah, when I do something that she sees as less than responsible, you better believe I hear it*
On some level I am so frustrated and resentful of her that I could just walk away in anger and throw away all the hope and faith I have in my convictions. I wonder if it wouldn't be best for her to be tossed away - thrown in the water and forced to keep herself afloat. She expects so much from me (although it's not more than I would expect of a husband) and gives me pain in return. But then this is justification for vindictive, bitter behavior on my part. I don't want to be this person, so I'm going to choose to take the high road again, and find pride in making the decision to act in a way I can respect.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
