Quote: People who have little control over themselves, or little confidence in themselves, tend to try and control people and situations around them in an effort to prove to themselves that they are worthy and smart and everything that they feel they aren't.
Boy, that sure sounds like me. I am very controlling - H has gone so far as accuse me of this. Yet I do know that I have a low self-image and very little confidence in myself. I need people to stroke my ego, I guess, to let me know that I am good and worthy.
Maybe this is what your wife needs too. Do you call her up during the day just to say hi and see how she is? My H used to do this everyday before the bomb, now he rarely, if ever does. This makes me feel like he doesn't care about me. I don't take into account that he may be very busy at work and just doesn't have time to call.
I also like to read, so occassionally my H will pick up a new book by an author I like or bring home one of my favorite magazines; this little jesture makes me think he is thinking about me and cares. Of course I would love a card or flowers but he is just not there yet. Is there something that your wife likes that you could surprise her with? Or is there something that she always does; like change the kitty liter, that maybe you could do for her without making a big production out of it.
Mama - this feels like a repeat post to you, one that I'm sure I'm going to get the right answer to again! That's so not DB, right? Doesn't that ego stroking play right into the pursuing category? Am I not enabling her (something that she has blamed me for since this all started) by making it more comfortable for her to hang on to her hang ups? I'm all for doing these things in a committed relationship, and being that I'm not, I have tried to do some of these things (I do what I can around the house now - things that I might have ignored for some time I do right away), but there are things on the list that I'm not sure are the right thing to do. The phone calls are things I used to do, but now I'm never sure if I'll be calling in the middle of a chat session - and I have found that laying low for a while has seemed to help things in the past. I also can't help seeing this complaining as a way of controlling the situation. Not because she wants me to change, but rather because she wants to have control for the reasons discussed above. In fact, I get the distinct sense that when I comply she views me as weak, and when I don't it hurts her feelings. Twisted, I know, but what do you do? Where's that middle ground?
I always stroke her ego verbally - to which she responds that "it's all just words" and I don't act it. My actions tell her loud and clear that she's dirt. I don't get it. I think it's highly likely that my actions that are affecting her in this situation have much more to do with me than her, but I can't really explain that to her. I also think that she's so determined to see everything I do in some negative light, anytime I stick my neck out it's going to be hacked at. I do take the risk, and I will continue to, but I think it might do more damage than good. At least I'm trying something.
So yeah, DB is a guideline. I might as well try and give her what she seems to really want, even thought I'm sure to get the "it's too late" comment when she realizes that I'm actually doing it. It's just difficult to read whether what she seems to be asking for is what she really wants.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
I always got that one too, Muddle. "You are only doing this because you think I'll like it". The message is that it's not really YOU doing it. It's hard to know what to do but DB is trying something and if it don't work, stop doing it and try something else. You've got nothing to lose at this point, give it a whirl!
Mama and I were going to quote the same thing. That was (is?) me, too. And we have the WAS's. By all accounts, Muddle, YOU should have been the WAS to get away from her sh!t.
Have to nap, sinuses are exploding and we have MC in an hour. Just wanted to come see you for a minute. Will check in later.
Forget the former things; do not dwell on the past. See, I am doing a new thing! Is 43:18-19
If it seems slow in coming, wait. It's on its way. It will come right on time. Hab 2:3
BI, that's a thought provoking comment. I think in some ways my response to her $hit over the years has been to withdraw or find a way to ignore a lot of it. This escapism is partly to blame for this situation now. I think my withdrawal has made her feel like I don't care. I don't know exactly how to address this, but if I can react differently to her stress, and my resulting stress, things will improve. I think withdrawing tells your partner that you don't care enough to fight (although the fight seems to tell her that her ideas are worthless because I don't validate them, or rather because my differing opinion means she's wrong).
Thanks for giving me this opportunity. Hope you feel better soon (I can relate about the sinus pressure!).
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Alright - here's a relatively mundane situation that might provide you all with some insight into my sitch:
At lunch I went grocery shopping. I picked up some oven gold turkey for W. It was on sale. Later when I tell W I got her oven gold, she starts getting a bit upset. She told me that last time she told me to just get what was on sale, which was some cracked pepper turkey, but I got her favorite, honey turkey. Today she was frustrated that I got her oven gold instead of honey. I told her that in the past she told me oven gold was fine, and since it was on sale and was ok by her I saw no reason not to get it. She was frustrated and told me that I'm "inconsistant" and seemed really frustrated with me. Any thoughts? My thought is that she is in a bit of a downward spiral, questioning herself and looking for external means of control (consistency being one of them) and when she doesn't have these reinforcements, she gets frustrated and thrown for a loop. So, can I be more consistant? I guess, but then I'm sure she'll find I'm being inconsistant from a different perspective.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Eh, crap. Another talk last night about how I'm not showing any real love through my actions. W doesn't want to spend another 10 year trying to work on something that's just not going to work. It all sounds like the same old thing, but I think some good came out of it.
The issue I mentioned yesterday about the different viewpoints on emotions and your own involvement in creating them came up. She was really hurt when I told her that I thought that just because you feel something doesn't make it real. I tried to explain this - telling her that I thought that she was ignoring her own involvement in creating her emotions, and that if she was hurt by something I did, then she wasn't looking at my intentions because that's not what I want to do. She then told me that there's such a huge disconnect between my intentions and my actions. This is clearly something I need to work on. I can't tell you how difficult it is to discern between her crap and the real issues, and that's where a big part of this problem is.
She told me she thought I was being mean by not trying to take care of her - a couple of examples: I went out to dinner with S4 and she went out with her friend. I didn't offer to get her anything. I thought she would take care of herself. She was offended and upset that I would think so. Part of this is purposeful on my part because I know that she would benefit from doing for herself. I have been called an enabler, and when I stop doing it I'm mean.
It's to the point where I almost don't care anymore. I'm doing what I don't want to be doing, and that's looking to her issues as the cause of all of this. I haven't been looking as hard at my part - what I can change - and actively doing what I can.
She told me that she thought that once a person decides to stop trying completely there's little to nothing the other person can do to make them want to try. She said at that point it's over. I told her that she was right, that both people had to want to try, but that I was hoping she'll decide to try, or she'll want to try at some point. She told me she doesn't think she will.
So I have all of these signs from her actions and attitude towards me that tell me that she's still fighting the fight. She's trying to get me to change (Oh yeah, she's said more than once that she shouldn't look at herself or her actions as solutions because she's not the one that professes to love me or want to make things work), and I'm not doing a good job, or doing what's expected.
I reconnected with someone I went to college with on Friday. She has a strange outlook on my M and thinks my W controls me. I had a falling out with her before we got married, which was my choice because I got tired of some of her antics. She attributed it to my W. I reconnected with her because we did have some good times, despite her baggage, and I thought it might provide me with opportunities to meet new people and grow my circle of friends. W found out that I contacted her and was upset, telling me that because she thinks this way about my W I shouldn't want to talk to her and the fact that I would is pushing my W away.
So needless to say I'm a bit discouraged. I really want to give it what I feel is quickly becoming a last ditch effort. It may be too little too late now. I can see overall my W is really trying to grab control, and this is what she's not getting. I think the fact that I'm not acting the way she expects me to is throwing her for a loop and taking away the control she's looking for. Do I give in and let her feel control even though the marriage is not going to work this way? Is this a good faith gesture at this point to show my sincerity? I don't know how she doesn't see my sincerity at this point (she told me that I haven't been fighting for her, yet she told me my changes seemed to be all for the purpose of saving the M - go figure), and I think she's egging me on trying to get more of an ego boost out of this situation.
What do you guys think?
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Personally Muddle, I think your wife is nuts! She, as the saying goes; "talks out of both sides of her mouth." I really don't know what to tell you cause it kind of seems like you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. Ya know?
You still live together, right? You have a son together too. Therefore, if I were you. I would continue on the path that you have chosen, to fight for your M. Let her tell you whatever she wants. Listen, validate and then let it roll right off your back. It sounds like she is trying to get a rise out of you. So that you are now the "bad guy" instead of her. Whatever....just remember, don't believe everything she says and only 1/2 of what she does.
Muddle, I am not going to try to play catch up with your sitch by responding to all that has happened since my last post to you. I don't know if what I will say is encouraging or discouraging but one thing I have realized after having been in this crap for the better part of a year now is that there is a HUGE perception, especially by those of us who read alot, here and elsewhere, that there is some "perfect" formula for marriage out there.
I know you don't feel that way, and neither do I. Hell, most of us, when asked, would say that's preposterous yet I feel we spend so much time analyzing our actions/words and those of our spouses against the ideas/expectations we have formed based on our reading and experience posting to this board. We constantly question if something was "DB" or not, and constantly wonder if our spouses actions are "right" in terms of the overall view we have of how our marriage "should be". I am one of the WORST at this.
What I think I am learning is that all this DB stuff and pretty much ALL self-help writing is written with the clear idea by the authors that most people will not follow all the guidelines printed in a book. Most people will not even get half of what is said, but if, in the end, people find a way to make their lives better and learn to do that on their own, however "dysfunctional" their lives may be, then progress has been made.
What I am getting at is that there is something to be said for "whatever works for you" being considered above and beyond some formula that is supposed to deliver you to marriage nirvana. I say that because I KNOW my W has "issues", her drinking being the only one which I really believe may require serious change/outside help, but I married her with those issues. I KNEW she was not that affectionate. I KNEW she was not the happiest person alive. I KNEW our relationship was a bit one sided in terms of me doing for her. I knew MANY more things that now don't fit the "formula" but I married her anyway because I also knew she was a beautiful, passionate, intelligent, kind hearted, down to earth woman who loved me as much as I loved her.
I also know many couples that have been married much longer than we have that do not in any way fit the mold, yet they are totally happy (at least as far as I can tell). Do they need to fix something that ain't broke just because the books say to?
What I am saying muddle is that you keep questioning all these things as if there was a "right" way to do these things, as if there was a "right" way for your W to act, or for you to respond, etc. If you think there is a right way, then so be it, but I suspect that like me, you married into a sitch that was full of "wrong" and decided that the good outweighed the bad by far so it was ok.
I am learning to really take a hard look at my marriage going back to the beginning and see the times when my W is now acknowledging as "happy times". I see a LOT that was different about both of us but you know what? A lot of those things are NOT the "issues" the seem to bother me a lot now.
It's like we have a bad alternator in our car so when we take it in to the repair shop we use it as an opportunity to fix all the things we have been living with for years; that little rattle in the trunk, the way the window doesn't roll all the way down on the passenger side, the slightly high idle RPM, etc. Then we also go ahead and add those rims we want, a new steering wheel, some new tires and get a new paint job.
Do we NEED to fix/add these things? Sure, but not at the expense of being broke for the next year and not even being able drive the car because you can't afford the insurance since your "improvement" payments are so high. In short, while it's great to "maintain" the car and add things we want, sometimes it's best to fix the problem at hand that is truly in need of repair and wait until a better time to address all the "little" things that add up to much more cost than we can bear at the moment.
In terms of our relationship, I think speaking personally, I am so fixated on trying to fix EVERYTHING that was ever wrong to achieve a "perfect" new marriage that I loose sight of the fact that there are only a couple MAJOR key issues that probably caused 90% of the problems in our marriage, of which I can do a lot about. I seem to be treating the other 10% as NECESSARY fixes and deserving of my attention. I think I have made a mistake in taking that approach.
No marriage is perfect, and for us to think (and I DON'T think you are thinking this way now) that we need to fix every little thing wrong is probably spreading us too thin.
I am not too sure how much this really applies to you muddle, or if it's just me projecting myself onto you again. I just sense that there is a lot of conflict in your mind right now about whether what you are doing is right or not and I just wanted to basically, in my usual long winded way, tell you that it's right if you think it is because at the end of all this, you just have to be true to who you are. DB can help you get there, but once you are there, you have to just start to live your life.
Please, keep on fighting for what you want and don't ever give up because YOU lose hope. You can't control what she does.
Yes, you might be right. She may be nuts. And she actually makes sense with a lot of her justifications. I think there's still a lot of good stuff for me to take away from her complaining. I have been talking with my MIL about this stuff, and I think she'll give me lots of useful information. I'm not sure how much my W has talked to her about, but I think she'll have better insight into what W really wants than any other source. I feel stupid for not having tapped into this resource sooner - and I feel like I have done a lot to justify not doing the real work on the relationship here. Maybe now I can do it. Not to say any of this time was a waste, I just haven't gotten to the crux of the relationship issues from her point of view.
I'm dedicated to persisting on this path. Hopefully it's not too late and I'm not committing to misery. W told me that "you're going to fall over when it really happens" and "I'm going to land on my feet." Yes, the stakes are high, and I feel like I might have done more damage than good, but I did communicate that I don't need her, that I'm choosing to want to be with her. I need to learn to act on this much better.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
