Muddle, I too am a plactor. I apologize for things that maybe I shouldn't. I don't like to rock the boat. That being said though, my perspective on what you just wrote is this: 1. You kind of sound like you are being vindictive and nasty by telling her it's none of her business what you do. It is her business, you two are still married. 2. She has told you several times that you don't make her feel happy. Maybe you need to work on that more even if you get anger and nastiness in return.
Thanks Mama. I really appreciate the perspective, in fact I think it's just what I needed.
I don't *really* think I'm being vindictive (althought I can see why you do, and maybe there's a little more resentment in me than I'd like to believe) - in fact it's not that I'm trying to hide anything from her - but when it comes to trying to build some mystery, she is keeping such tight tabs on me that I can't really accomplish that. I guess I should just comply, huh? I'll work this out with her later I'm sure.
The other point is one I have a lot of trouble with. I really don't know the first thing about doing this now. It seems the only thing I can do to make her feel happy has to do with OM. I compliment her all the time. I have tried getting her flowers, etc, but at this stage in the game this all runs against DB advice and would constitute pursuit. See where I'm at a loss? I do my best to make our interactions nice, and especially go out of my way to compliment her, tell her I'm proud of her, etc. Even in the midst of nastiness I make sure and point things out about how great she is. Bottom line is I can't make her feel happy. I can make her feel other feelings that she might incorporate into and overall image of happiness, but not happiness. I can be happy with her, but can't make her happy.
Thanks again - I have lots more to think about now.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
You right, you really can't make anyone happy. That must come from within. But think of it this way, what is it that OM is doing that causes her to feel good about herself. What are somethings the two of you did when you were dating that maybe you could incorporate into your lives now? Try being the "OM" and get her to cheat on him with you - you might have even been the one who told me this. As far as being against DB or not, that book is a guide it is not a set in stone rule book. You must do what you feel is right in your sitch and if it works, keep on doing it!
Alright, maybe this is a stupid question: does the fact that she's even arguing with me about how I'm treating her mean that we're still in a state of conflict in our relationship? Does it mean that she's trying to improve it because she doesn't want to give it up yet, or is it that she's simply looking for more reassurance that she's making the right decision?
I guess this doesn't matter in the end, just some thoughts that popped up in my mind.
I need to get back to working on myself. I'm a little discouraged today, and I'm starting to feel like I'm in a little depressive slump. I'll pick it up tomorrow I'm sure, but the distance between us is really getting to me today. I think she's really gone, and I don't think I've really accepted that we're done. I know this doesn't rule out a new start, and that's what I'm hoping for, but I still think I need to truly accept that we're done.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
muddle, I would approach it as though you are still in a R. She wants out, not you! Don't tell her she's not a part of your life and has no right.... I see that as slamming the door on your M. Now, if you believe that is the tactic that will turn this around for you, then go for it. But, I don't think that is the case. You are still living together so I would try to work out a way to do so re this issue that works for both of you. It could be a small step towards working out other things. And yes, I think she is still confused about your R and you should keep plugging away at it until she's out that door. Don't push her out...unless that is what you want.
As you know Muddle, middle ground and I are not well-acquainted. I'm either all fcuk you, I'm leaving or all up in your business (reminds me of that old quote, "I hate you, don't leave me").
I don't think it smart to say your 'only where we intersect' line, it's very cold (although I sure get the emotions behind it!). I agree with the others that you are still in an R until you're NOT. you know? you are still married. she may not be acting like it, but you are M. and until you are NOT (or you are done trying for a new M with her) I don't think you can stop trying on some level. But it does tend to make you feel like a dumba$$, to love and affirm someone who you feel is sh!tting on you in a very big way. Sigh.
When my H's A was going on, I came THIS close to changing the locks on him a few times, so I know the fine line we tread. And it's difficult like nobody else knows. And I feel for you. And I apparently ramble on your thread with no good advice. Listen to the others, I agree with them. How's that?
Forget the former things; do not dwell on the past. See, I am doing a new thing! Is 43:18-19
If it seems slow in coming, wait. It's on its way. It will come right on time. Hab 2:3
Alright, I guess I'll try that approach - it does feel like more of the same though. Last night we went out with some people together and had a decent time. I stayed on the other side of the group from her and caught her watching me a few times. I was having a good time, and I think it showed. When I left (I had to pick up S4, so left earlier), I made the rounds and gave her a kiss (on the lips - after which she gave a look to her friend/accomplice, so I left thinking it was a bad thing and I shouldn't have. She didn't pull away though, so I'm not sure.) and then drove home. When I got home I turned the covers down on her bed. I thought it might be a nice gesture, and apparently she noticed. This morning she asked me why I did it, and I told her I wanted to do something nice for her. I have to really keep at things like that. Maybe overt gestures like flowers or sappy cards might be too much, but little things that leave little question that I'm thinking about her might be ok.
I have to say that I am somewhat resentful of the fact that now that this is going on my W decides to take her life into her own hands and face fears and become the person she wants to be. She's clearly happy that she's doing this (simple things like going into a store by herself), but I can't help thinking that the band-aide gets the credit for this. If only she had motivated herself to do all of this before looking for external solutions, we would have been MUCH better off. Well, I can't look at what could have been, I have to look to now. I'm encouraged that she's doing what she is regardless of why or how - I just hope she has the wisdom to know that her more happy state is her own doing, not a result of this A. I guess that's what I'm scared of more than anything, that this phase is proof that this is what she should be doing. This is where faith comes in, I think. I need to have faith in her reasoning, in her ability to discern right from wrong, and eventually her desire to make choices based on this. Right now her choices seem to be made to affect her emotions. Hopefully this will change.
Thanks for dropping by guys. It's so helpful to have people point out when you're acting like an idiot - however justified you may feel - before you do yourself too much damage by acting that way.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Muddle, As I said, if you believe taking the hardline is going to help your sitch, then do so. Only you can really know, not us! Again, my feeling is not to but honestly what do i know? I love the turning down the covers on her bed cuz I do that every time she's out and comes home late. It's my way of saying "you are still welcome in our bed". A small thing but those small things can be powerful. Keep us posted.
Whatis, I'm really NOT trying to take the hardline here. I may be trying to stay in my comfort zone as far as middle ground goes, but I'm certainly not trying to push her.
Well, I think I've started to see a few more opportunities in my sitch. Last night I to S4 to my parents' house and then went out with an old friend of mine to a concert. W was at her soon to be SIL's shower all day. When W got close to home (about 9:15PM) she called to find out where I was. I told her I was heading back up. She got pissed saying that is was irresponsible to have S4 out that late, especially after we had him out the night before. I told her I didn't think it was a big deal, and that if the two of us were out together she wouldn't have a problem with it. To make a long story short, she got really mad that I didn't do certain things that she thought I should have, and she got mad that I had opinions about what was right for our S that differed from hers. She got really angry that I "made her feel stupid about herself" I guess by disagreeing with her.
The one thing I tend to overlook all too often when her controlling tendencies come up is where they come from. She has low self esteem, and a low self image. People who have little control over themselves, or little confidence in themselves, tend to try and control people and situations around them in an effort to prove to themselves that they are worthy and smart and everything that they feel they aren't. I too often look to the symptom of this, the controlling behavior, rather than trying to address the cause, or even to acknowledge the cause and be more patient. I don't really know how to address this, but I think the more I'm aware of things, the better able I'll be to handle it.
She basically told me this morning that she wants me to be aware of what's going on in her life and to make an effort to help her out where I can. She made a simple point about how she had to pick up her medicine yesterday and told me some long story about how she called in the refill, and couldn't get to the place before they closed. I didn't call and ask whether she was able to take care of it, and this made her feel like I don't care. This is something that she keeps telling me over and over - I act like I don't care. I don't know what I can do to make her feel like I care, because I felt like I gave my life to her, I'd go so far as saying I felt like I was serving her, and THAT didn't make her feel loved. So what will? So much of her bad feelings about me and about herself seem to really stem from her issues with depression and low self esteem. I don't know how to "make her feel better" when the ONLY solution to this is her doing for herself and improving her own self image.
I remember some time ago, before all of this started, she and I had a discussion about feelings and about how our experience of feelings are not a direct response to environmental stimuli. At least, this was my perspective. I told her that I thought that everyone's feelings could be as much, if not more, responses to reactions and associations to the stimuli as a response to that stimuli. She thought I was nuts. She thought feeling were responses to the world, and she didn't think that we have any part in creating our world through our perspective or motivations. Well, this kind of makes for a difficult time seeing eye to eye on the whole feelings issue. This makes it difficult for her to understand that I can't make her feel something if she's not motivated to participate in it. So what do I do? Wait for her to realize that this might be true? I guess that's my only choice.
The other thing that she commented on about me is that I put my own needs first, our son's needs second and her needs last. Always have. I don't want to argue with her, but of course I don't think this is true. Maybe I truly don't understand what her needs are (this is true, and I have a really hard time discerning between what's a genuine need and what's a need for a crutch) and this is why I can't seem to make her feel loved and cared for. This is something that's extremely difficult to do when she won't talk to me at all. I thought I was meeting her needs, we talked all the time deeply about feelings, thoughts, everything, I took care of her, shopped, got dinner, ran around and did for her whatever she asked. I'm not sure what was missing from this in her perspective (I have a really good idea what in my perspective). So, it's off to try and learn more. All in all, I think the fact that she's approaching our R from this perspective day after day means that she's still thinking about it. She's not decided, no matter what she says. Gotta keep at it, and always look at things from a positive perspective. Any thoughts you guys have are ALWAYS appreciated.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Pretty strange, isn't it. She wants all the benefits of a loyal caring partner but doesn't want to give anything. Maddening! When I mentioned "hardline" Muddle, it may have been the wrong wording. Setting boundaries may be a better term. Sometimes it is best to set boundaries but only you can know which to set and how to do it. All the best!
