Just wanted to restate what PL said, and it's something I have said a LOT around here, we ALL had reason enough to say f--k you to our spouses on day one of this sitch. Finding something out on day 232 that only reaffirms our reasons we had since day one doesn't change anything unless we were led to believe things had fundamentally changed. In your sitch, things HAVE recently fundamentally changed, sadly for the worse in terms of her trip and physical interaction with OM, but you knew that so this image you now have does not provide you with anything other than a living, breathing tool of pain to use on yourself.
I know you didn't go looking for this, but now that you saw it, you need to do your best to purge it and understand that your reasons to continue, should you decide to do so, have not changed, nor has the basic state of the sitch.
GH, I'm clear on that point, and I'm not at a point where I'm debating my position AT ALL! I am just documenting some of my feelings; even though they are counter to my position I think they deserve to be processed. I am far more desensitized to this than you might think.
The pain of this image has been relatively minor - far less than images I have conjured up myself - and I only had one point in the evening where I got a pang of physical pain from this.
I get this sense from your recent posts, GH, that you have taken a pessimistic view of my sitch of late. I'm not sure why exactly I get this, but I do, and it doesn't really change my position any if you do. Do you?
You say that my sitch took a turn for the worse, but having read what many, if not most of the people on this board have been through, I don't think it any worse, and I can't say it's unexpected. I fully expected things to get worse before they get better. I'm still not sure we're at rock bottom yet. I think I've been there and have begun my ascent. W hasn't yet. She still thinks that it's just a matter of hard work and determination to make this fantasy come true. She hasn't hit bottom, and I worry sometimes that I'm preventing her from doing this be being there for her. She's got to do some real living now and learn about who she is and what she wants from her life. We'll see if she still wants some part of this life then.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Muddle, I think somehow I have miscommunicated with you again. I don't think I am taking a negative view of your sitch, more that I am reflecting the kinds of posts you have been posting about your feelings, etc. I have NO idea if your sitch is objectively worse or better than it was before the trip. What I do know is that you are handling whatever the sitch is with amazing patience and control over your emotions.
Again, if I have been communicating a negative view on your sitch, maybe I am projecting my own anger at your W, lol. I think your actions and reactions have been great and like I said, and SAY about most all our sitches, I have no idea what the future holds.
I think the key to your marriage's future is YOUR resolve to see it through this rough patch and for that, you should be commended.
I understand your need to vent, just understand that when you do, people, including myself, may vent back simply because we feel for you.
GH, I don't really think it was miscommunication as much as me reading into things you wrote a tone that I probably contributed to. I appreciate your sympathy and support. I guess every once in a while I go looking for something more "objective" to give me some direction. I look outward at the precise times when I should be directed inward the most.
I guess all this focus on my feelings recently reflects the fact that despite my contentment with where my life is headed, I haven't been as focused and consumed with it as I probably should be right now. I have been reactive, thinking about my W and my M more than I should. This is going to change again soon, as I have been a little sick and haven't been able to get out and exercise, or do things that I would like to.
Thanks again for your input, and know that I am determined to stick this out, for better or for worse. I have grown so much through this process, and I look forward to continuing my growth, and the process.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Muddle, it must be so painful to come across that picture. My heart goes out to you. Sometimes we all say, "F*** it, what's the point". We get tired of feeling unloved and dumped on by the person we wanted to spend our lives with. That is natural, so vent away! I'd like to mention that when your W says things like "grow a pair" etc. just walk away. They love to pick at your vulnerable spots. I know a friend of mine says that they start with your vulnerable spots and then start on the things you feel confident about! They wear you down. That's why GAL is so damn important cuz if you don't offset the crap you are being handed with positive experiences, it's hard to keep it up. Exercise, as you know, is a lifesaver. I've said before that there were times I felt totally disillusioned, would go for a run and lo and behold would be returning home only thinking of all the blessings in my life. Hope you are physically better soon. Also I believe couples get together because of the attraction of opposites. Your W is aggressive and she probably wanted someone who could offset that side of her nature, that's you. So don't swallow that crap about "why don't you grow a pair". It's just hurtful anger being spewed. I always told my W that sometimes I need someone to kick me in the butt and she needs someone to pull in her reins. That I saw as positive. Take care.
I just sort of got into it w/W a little while ago. Told her I was going out, and she started getting all weird about me not telling her where. She started to get on my case about how it's courtesy to tell her where I am going, and how it's disrespectful that I don't tell her. She went on and on to rationalize how this was disrespectful on my part, etc. I was a little annoyed, because she's not entitled to be a part of my life, or know anything about it except for where it intersects with hers, which I make sure to keep her abreast of. I told her that I kept her informed of what mattered and she told me that she "feels" disrespected. Ok, here's where I said something that I probably shouldn't have - talk about INvalidating: "W, just because you feel something doesn't mean it's real." This is something that really gets to me. If she feels slighted, the other person has it out for her. BS. Grow up. Well, this led to her telling me that I don't validate her feelings. That her feelings don't matter to me. Mind you, I feel like she's using them against me.
So, she goes on, and on, and I kindof withdraw a bit. She says: "I make a valid point and you shut down. This is why we don't work." Then she hangs up the phone. Nice. I'm torn. I feel like I should stand my ground, because that's what she complains about, but yet she thinks I don't validate her feelings. WTF - she's determined to leave me, yet she thinks I should be kissing her ass and doing exactly as she wishes. She's a control freak, and when I don't submit, she's pissed. When I do submit, she's pissed. She doesn't want to get along, so we don't.
I have functioned as a placator. I don't really want to do that any more. When I don't, we don't resolve issues, as is clear here. I see her as being unreasonable - which, of course she won't accept, and I'm not really trying to be right - and I can't see a way to come to a resolution without doing what she wants and being her little puppy dog. WTH do I do about this?
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
I would have been pretty tempted to say "it's disrespectful to f*** my cousin too" but we all know where that would have gone. I'm quite familiar with the "no matter what you do you are wrong" approach and I think the best thing to do is just recognize that whatisis! You can't please her... end of story. But seeing as how you're looking for ideas, you might want to approach her calmly and try to discuss how you can each be respectful to each other in this situation. She would feel more comfortable knowing you are going to see the Divorce lawyer (sorry, that one slipped) and you would feel more comfortable if she could express herself a little more gently and then tell her exactly what gently means to you. Check out how she would like to be "validated". I mean she is entitled to her feelings and no feeling is wrong. To validate doesn't mean to agree. But, and a big but, you are also entitled to your privacy too and she should respect that. Where this would go nobody knows. It's funny she always carries on about your anger but never seems to notice her own. Maybe that's a talk too. Or you could always do what we guys do best, ignore it and grab the remote...but then maybe that's how we got into these sitch's in the first place. So these are just some thoughts off the top of my head. Maybe they'll spark some better ideas from elsewhere. She's damn lucky to have you, Muddle. Remember that!!!
Just a quick thought. Muddle you say you've functioned in the past as a placator and unless you do it problems aren't resolved. Well, a placator isn't interested in resolving issues but only in restoring the quiet balance, no matter how unhealthy. If your interventions were helping to solve problems then you were not a placator but an active participant in building a R. Don't crap on yourself if you don't deserve it! I know it's pretty darn frustrating when no matter what you do they still find a way to crap on you. Keep taking care of you. Hey, where is everybody tonite? Am I the only one not out following my S around?
Thanks guys. Things can be frustrating, but no one ever said this would be easy. W was pissed with me this morning and I told her I'd like to talk to her about it later. I got home really late - or rather not so early (about 3:30AM) so I was in bed most of the morning. W was running around, and as she left just now I pulled her aside, kissed her on the lips (hasn't happened in several days) and told her that I wanted to talk later, that we just weren't seeing eye to eye, and that we should resolve it and clear the air. She said "what else is new" to the "not seeing eye to eye" comment, and then agreed to talk. She didn't recoil from the kiss, and she kissed me back, so there was some interest there. Interesting. I told her that I appreciated that she shared her feelings with me last night, and that I want to talk it out.
As far as being the placator: I have consistently taken responsibility for issues and or problems. I have done this in the form of appologizing for things that aren't really my fault, etc. I guess I recognize that the first step towards changing something begins when you take responsibility for it, and so in an effort to fix the problem, I take responsibility. I guess the trouble begins when it's not really my fault, and there's little to nothing I can do about the issue. I think this has set up a less than ideal way of addressing our problems, and I think the solution is to say to W "what can WE do to resolve this." This way the responsibility is distributed and I'm not taking blame for something, but rather we are collaborating on finding a solution. Teamwork. Creating a unified identity as a couple.
I'm not really sure how I'm going to address this later (if we get to talk about it later). I plan on just telling her that I don't think she's entitled to be a part of my life, other than where we intersect. My life is my life and if I choose to include her that's my prerogative. I'll tell her how I'm being considerate of her and respectful of her, and leave it at that. I'm debating whether I should tell her that I think she's controlling (she knows she is, and she and her friend/cheerleader have talked about how my brothers and I - this cheerleader girl went out with my brother for some time - date women that control us), and if she's not putting anything into our relationship, I have no reason to accept that sort of behavior from her.
Does this sound like a childish approach? You're not going to be part of the R so I'm not going to give you what you want from me? On the one hand I feel like I should just give until I have no more to give. On the other, I think I should just move on and stop acting like if I keep feeding this emotional money pit I'll get some more miles out of it.
I'm not really crapping on myself here. I'm being as real with myself as I can be. I want to learn from this, and if I find nasty stuff, I want to face it, not write it off as belonging to someone else. I'm frustrated because I want to change the dynamic of our R, but the canned ways seem to leave me doing so much more of the same. I can't help thinking that these methods are for use in a R where both people have a relatively realistic outlook on life and my W doesn't really. I know I just haven't found the right approach yet, I just have to keep trying. It's like W thinks I don't pay her enough attention, yet she doesn't want me around. I don't make her feel better, loved, wanted, special, supported, etc., etc., etc. I know this isn't my job, but isn't it partly? Isn't that where the lure of a relationship is? In knowing your partner likes this, or that doing that makes them feel this way? I think I haven't focused enough on that, but have rather placated her desire to STOP feeling bad. I want to make her feel good, and now I'm not in a relationship where I can do that.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
