Muddle's Waters II

[MuddleThrough]

Thanks guys. I really am doing well these days, for the most part. I'm realizing a lot about my own motivations in all of this, and keeping my PMA up despite everything that's going on. I've truly realized that fighting this fight for me has nothing to do with whether I'm going to win or lose. W keeps asking me how she can convince me that it's over - and the simple fact is that my hope doesn't come from her, and the fight is not to win, but to do right and be right through it.

Since she's been home she's been sleeping downstairs. She hasn't kissed me (well, once or twice) on the lips, but rather is making a point of changing our relationship into something platonic. It's frustrating, even angering, when I think about it, so I don't really - at least not that often. I'm truly glad that she's moving in the self growth direction - this above all else has me encouraged. Again, not because of the outcome, but because it's good for her.

She told me yesterday that she was considering not talking to OM for some time while we go through this because she wants to be sure for herself that this isn't the real reason that she's doing this. Meanwhile, she keeps telling me in somewhat round about ways that is absolutely IS about him. She came home from being with him with this decision made. She as much as told me that because they had such a great time it pretty much proved that what she and I have or had isn't "real". She said that she feels like he's the man she's meant to be with. I told her "I know" and she looked at me like I was a bit crazy - then I told her that that was what most people in affairs say. I know this isn't really DB and it puts me in a "superior" position, but I said it. She then tried to rationalize further that they're different, they're not the classic affairs couple. They're special. Anyway, the fact is that this is all about the A, and all her justifications for wanting to break up our family are utilizing that motivation. Doesn't do me the slightest bit of good to know this, except to help me understand it's not really about me.

I keep thinking about my son and how much he deserves us to be together and actually working at things. I'm not going to give up here, but I truly hope he's going to get what he needs. He's such a special person, always has been, and he deserves the absolute most in terms of parental committment and love we can give him.

My W has been talking a lot about how I'm going to move out and how we're going to make things work for our S in terms of school and other logistical stuff. She's agreed to getting on her feet before we decide if and when to separate (even though it's a when to her - or so she always says), but she can't just let it be there. She's running fast and hard now, and even though she says that she's not at all guilty for what she's done, I think she's hiding it from herself. I really don't think she can stand to truly face herself for what she's done and doing. She told me that before she left she was nervous that it wouldn't be what she has been anticipating but that it did turn out to be everything she wanted. Now she's looking for more problems with me to justify this - so I need to be as close to perfect as can be. I've also been trying to figure out how I can get her to stop CREATING the problems she's looking for between us. She'll get angry at me when we're talking because she just can't understand me, rather than just asking for clarity on one point or another. I think it comes from her poor self esteem, but I'm not sure. I just try to be patient and understanding, but I can't help feeling like things are spiraling downward.

I've been interested in pursuing my MBA degree in the past, but never could find the time to invest. I've decided in the past couple of days that I need to do this. I need to for myself and my boy, and even though it's going to put some extra strain on our family, it's got to be worth it. It almost sounds stupid when I put this down, but I really want to do this. My parents have told me they'll support my efforts, and I have been wanting to talk to my parents about this situation (they don't know yet) and ask for their help. I know my W will see me talking to just about anyone about this as a vindictive measure - especially since she's having an affair with my father's nephew, and his parents know, so once my parents know there will be lots of communication between the parents. Might not be too comfortable for them. I just don't understand how this can be the motivation for destroying a family, with a high cost for everyone including extended family, and yet the motivation is something that is too shameful to get out into the open. If they're so in love, wouldn't they want to shout it to everyone? I almost think it would be beneficial to make it more difficult for them at this point - but the cost of pushing W away now might be too high for us.

I just have to give it more time, work on myself, and see where it will go. There's hardly good reason for breaking up a family, especially since we haven't worked at solving problems since this A has clued us in to the fact that we have and have had problems with our relationship. It's not an abusive relationship, she's just got something "real" proving that what we have isn't. I asked her (again, bad DB) if she'd found now that the grass really was greener on the other side, and she said yes it was.

Thanks for being there guys. I really appreciate it.

[MuddleThrough]

I just got back from taking S4 to the doctor with W - still not sure what's wrong with him. He's got a rash that usually is caused by strept but doesn't have strept. Overall, it wasn't a bad time w/W, but at one point I touched her leg in what was meant to be a comforting way and she rolled her eyes. She also told me that her uncle called and asked if he could stay overnight with us and she told him no because she was sleeping downstairs! It would seem either she's trying really hard to detach from me because she's really trying to convince herself that she's doing the right thing, or she's trying really hard to be faithful to OM, and that's why she's fighting so hard not to be near me. I really crave her attention, so much so that it actually almost makes me sick sometimes. When I got home, she was in the shower (glass doors) with the bathroom door wide open. She knew I was coming and she talked to me without hiding herself. For a time earlier in the sitch she didn't want me to see her naked, so I'm not sure how to take this. It is absolute torture though!

I keep having these self-defeatist (or maybe it's my own emotional preparation) thoughts about how I'm watching my W just walk out of my life, and that I'm not doing what I should be, I'm not expressing the right amount of remorse (maybe not any at all). In fact, I actually started to feel remorse for not recognizing the fact that I could have done SOMETHING about my W's unhappiness - that maybe the fact that I didn't do anything means that I really didn't care, like she tries to tell me. I have always, and still do, maintained that her life and health are her responsibility and she has to do for herself. She blames me for this, even though I can't change my perspective on it, and I think that somehow I'm to blame. I know I need to be upbeat and happy and be someone she wants to be with rather than express sadness or remorse, but I'm acknowledging it here. I guess it's all part of the healing process, one that I want to go through with my W, but have to go through regardless.

I feel somewhat helpless again, I guess because I'm focusing on her, which while somewhat necessary to gain insight into what I can do to effectively reach her is painful. Also, she's hoarding all the attention, and she's fixated on power, which she tells me I have all of, and my focus on her is giving her what she wants. I need to focus on myself, and not on her, and then she'll start to look towards me, hopefully, as long as someone else doesn't have her attention now. Oh, damnit, I almost forgot, there is someone there. There's the wheel again, the emotional rollercoaster with it's thought spirals. I'm not feeling the intensity of the emotions, but the thoughts do get back there.

I wish there was something really significant I could do to impress her - to give her reason to want to love me. I keep thinking that that's all she needs, some reason to try and work things out, but the fantasy life that she's running towards is just too real for her. Me and the life I give her are not enough to compare to it. It almost doesn't help me to know that this is her issue. I know it is, and I wish she was open enough to looking at herself in a deep and meaningful way. Maybe there will be a miracle, but this has been going on for so long now, and she's apparently off the fence. I wish I could lead her to believe that I've given up but I have been strong and honest about the fact that I still want things to work. Yes, I have no doubt that she's angry at me that I won't be angry at her and divorce her because of what she's done, but I haven't been. Her focus is almost entirely on what her life is going to be like without us being together. How we're going to manage the logistics of being parents apart. I'm angry because I can't help thinking she's punishing both S4 and me by not allowing us to see each other every day and live in the same house. I guess I have some really huge resentment issues towards her, ones that I'm working through within myself, and I recognize that they exist and I own them, but this is one of them. The huge injustice that she got us here to this point where we are married with a child, and now she wants to walk away without doing the responsible thing and leave me footing the bill for the whole family, struggling to get by, not getting to be as involved in my son's childhood as I want to and as I feel he needs, all because she's too selfish to do what's right. Enough. It's not worth going down this road.

I will continue here, whether it be futile or not. I guess I wish I had a more concrete path to follow, something that I knew would work, that I could see tangible results from. I am sure she's still confused, and even though she thinks she's clear in her decision, I'm sure she's still debating. I need to keep my focus on my life, which I've been doing well, and hopefully she'll figure out what she needs to about herself and this situation. Maybe it will take the sacrifice of a young life for her to figure this out, but I hope not.

[whatisis]

Muddle,
Really think hard about the MBA thing. It puts a real strain on you and your family. That's one of the things my W did which put our M in the dumpster. Yours is already there, do you want to put energy into DBing or your MBA. Maybe I'm wrong here but warning lights go on for me. Can you do one course or something so that you've started and can feel good about that? Also, I've heard all the crap you are being fed "we're different" (yaa, yaa, you're soulmates), "I feel no guilt". Toss it out the window for the crap it really is. For the life of me I can't figure out this A mindset and have discovered it's best not to try. Hang in there, guy.

[MuddleThrough]

Thanks Whatis. I am really debating it, and I'm trying to figure out a way to make it happen without doing more damage. It's a difficult debate because it would be helpful to my family regardless of what happens to the M. I have had to work in the evenings to afford our life - and that has no doubt put a huge strain on the M, contributing to the current state of it. If I can somehow manage to go in the evenings (W doesn't really want to spend much, if any, time with me anyway) and find another way to supplement my income, it could work without creating additional strain. It would really show some ambition and dedication on my part too - above and beyond how it will help my life and those in it.

As for what my W says, it's textbook, from what I know. If she wants to believe it, then she will. It's hard because I think it will take actually having this relationship become a real, boring, dull, resentment inspiring relationship might be what it takes for her to really see that the grass isn't any greener over there, but because of the fact that they live on different continents, a whole lot of obstacles have to be overcome in order for it to get to that stage. I have to up the value of our relationship for her to want to stay.

She recently asked me again, in the past couple of days, if I thought that if they stopped communicating whether the feelings will just go away. I told her that I don't know if she'll be able to stop the feelings, but there are plenty of people that do it. It's up to her. I guess this is proof that she's still considering ending it with him. She even told me a day or two later that she was thinking about it. It's really crunch time, and I feel like I don't really know what to do. I tried the pull away thing, and while I got results, she's in a different place now, and she got angry with me when she came back telling me that not only did she not see any changes on my part, that she saw no fight, she saw me pulling away and "being mean" to her, which just pushed her further away. So I'm sure I need to really find some middle ground here. I am trying to do little things here and there, leaving notes telling her I'm proud of her for things without having any expectation of any response from her. I also and being aware of being far more detached, not trying to be close to her, or touch her. We haven't been talking a whole lot, but when we do I try to be upbeat, and talk about our son a lot. She's been so focused on getting herself together to get out that we have had quite a few conversations about that - which I'm not resisting (but I'm often telling her not to worry about how we're going to handle it once we're apart because we're not there yet - clearly telling her that I'm not really taking her leaving seriously (oh wait, I'm the one leaving?!?!?) and that I'm somewhat still in denial). I really want to see her get on her feet, which I've been telling her for a long time, but I just can't look to making even hypothetical separation plans with her. I'd rather deal with her getting to where she wants to be, which I'm glad to be a part of, and then if she gets there and decides she wants to separate, she's on her own from there.

I hope she sees just how sincere I am about helping her. I hope she realizes from my actions and support just how much I actually do support HER and that this basically sinks her argument that I WANT her to be a prisoner in our home and life. Maybe then she'll have an open mind about other things she might be wrong about. We'll see at some point I guess.

[MuddleThrough]

Well I have to say, as you all may have noticed, I have backslid quite a bit in my sitch. I expected to revisit the trauma when W took the step to advance the EA to a PA, and while the emotional pain is muted, I have once again taken the focus off of me and put it back on my W and my cousin. Yesterday I wrote a letter to send to my cousin telling him how saddened I am by the choices he's making - clearly trying to influence him and appeal to his conscience. I'm not going to send it. There's no good to come from it. It will just communicate to this guy with an adolescent mentality that he I think he has power over my life. This is clearly something he gets a rise out of. Not going to do it.

I keep thinking about what will happen if this goes through, partially because my W is really planning now, and partially because I'm starting to wonder if ANY outcome is better than this limbo, and the only outcome I can make happen right now is to agree with her. It makes me angry how high the costs are for this. It makes me angry to think about how little stock my W puts into being a responsible parent. I know this anger is really masking my fear and hurt, fear of the future and what might come. I don't know what will come, and so I try to focus on what I can do right now for myself and my family.

It doesn't really help anything that I'm a bit sick - there's always a bit of an emotional down when you're not feeling well. I've made some significant changes in my life that I'm proud of. I have many more to go, and I want to accomplish a lot more in the time I have left with my family. I will continue to focus on my goals, and the steps I need to take to accomplish them.

I have started leaving my W notes to tell her that I'm proud of her, or things about our son. This morning I signed it "ILU, Me". Not sure if this is too much pressure or pursuit. I just want to create an environment where she's aware of the comforts of this family, rather than just some guy who loves her. She's going to lose this, and I don't know if reminding her of this is going to make her feel like it's all fake, or if it will really make her feel something productive. I haven't been affectionate of late - she has been so physically detached from me. She even looks angry at times when I do touch her at all. It seems to me that she's trying too hard for this to be sincere. Maybe I'm misjudging her here and she's really acting with integrity in the sense that her whole being is aligned behind her actions.

I don't want to be reactive - but she has recently told me that I'm not getting through to her my desire to be with her. I can't believe how stupid this looks when I put it in print, because the simple fact is that she HAS to see my efforts. She's probably just angry that I haven't given up. I want to do more and be more for the sake of this relationship but I don't really know what to do at this point. She's moved so far away from me. I know I need to do more 180s now. Keep track of what works, stop doing what doesn't, but the fact is that I don't know what kind of goals I can create for this sitch that I can monitor the effectiveness of my actions against. I have seen my actions yield results in the past, but because she's in such a different place I don't know how much weight I have anymore.

[whatisis]

Muddle,
I too have written a letter to the OP a few times and then hit "delete". It's kind of nice to fantasize and get those feelings on paper but, you are right, I can't imagine it having any positive impact. Hang on and keep doing what you are doing, it sounds right to me!

[MuddleThrough]

Yet another day. . .

Things are sort of ok - I guess I'm adjusting to W living downstairs somewhat. Last night we went to celebrate her mother's and stepfather's birthdays (1 day apart) and had a pretty good time. She actually was somewhat normal with me, at one point even letting her leg touch mine (she eventually moved it). When we got home, however, I put S4 to bed and she didn't even say goodnight to him, but ran downstairs to write email (to OM, of course). Eventually, I went downstairs to tell her I was going out for a walk and there was a strong undercurrent of anger coming from her. I think it was partially because I came in while she was writing her email (which she's still clicking away - a sign to me that she's well aware that what she's doing is wrong, despite how dedicated she tries to appear to this being her new life), but I have noticed that she has steadily maintained this resentful, angry demeanor towards me, especially since her return. I think she's guilty, and she's angry with me for not giving in or being nasty and mean. She's got little to nothing to hold against me now (it doesn't stop her), so she's constantly digging for issues. Yesterday at lunch it was nothing more than "I felt fine before you came home and now that you're here I'm frustrated and annoyed." She was telling me about her plans for later and I was washing some dishes and she thought I wasn't listening to her. This is something blatant that I need to work harder on - looking at her while I'm listening and repeating what she says.

I re-read some of DR last night and it was enlightening to find some little tidbits that were not fresh in my mind. I think the whole midlife crisis section does apply to my W, but I'm not positive. I had to stop myself from getting pessimistic while reading the paragraphs where she says that sometimes the decision has been made and there's nothing else you can do. I wrote down 3 goals for improvement: I'd like to see more awareness of positives; I'd like to see more desire to do things together (and actually do them) and I'd like to discuss and be part of our own self development. I'm not sure how successful I can be with #1 because W is pretty intent on focusing only on the negatives. 2 is something I can try and work on - we might as well have some fun together even if we are headed for divorce. 3 is something that I think is already in motion. Because my W is trying to get herself to a place where we can actually separate, she's aware of a real need for her own self growth and development. I have told her I support her on this (which to her is "just words" - what more can I give? I mean my word that I support her and intend to do what I can to support her work is all I can give. I can't do it for her, she has to do it) and have already shown this by giving her another driving lesson in the stick shift car.

I think she's pretty confident in her decision, which is almost entirely an emotional one. The way I see it, it will take at least 6 months before we can get to the point where she's on her feet enough to consider separation, and then we have to be separated for a year before divorce can be filed by her. I don't intend to file. So this gives plenty of time to demonstrate sincere changes and for things in lala land to fizzle. At the very least, this is a significant amount of time in which I can work on myself and get into a much better position for me to go on with my life. I just wish we could be more friendly through this.

Actually, last night, W came upstairs to say goodnight to me. I wasn't sure she would, but she did come up and sit on the bed and talk for a bit. I have to admit that I feel a bit strange sometimes talking to her, like I have so much to hold back. I think there's still potential.

[grasshopper]

Muddle,

Quite uncharacteristically, I don't have much to say other than hang in there. She is obviously going through some rough times, much of which she blames on you. There is not much you can do about that. Just make sure you are clear in your mind that you are NOT to blame for these actions and the guilt she feels because of them. Also consider that always blaming her anger/actions on guilt may be, in itself, a "superior" or at least "wrong" in terms of perspective idea. She may indeed NOT feel guilt but rather thinks that this whole thing is the greatest prospect she has for a happy life. That's not to make you feel bad but I just want to make sure you understand that you have no TRUE idea of what she's feeling even though she may tell you and you may feel you are good at reading her.

Even if she's just plain angry at not being able to go to OM right now, it doesn't change the fact that you can't control that. You can only do what you can to improve your part of the sitch and make sure that you do keep coming from that "loving" place so that for your sake and your son's, you can look back in 5 years and say that what you did either saved your marriage or at least did justice to the love you felt for W.

I think you are still doing remarkably well considering all things, and I have faith that you will continue on the path that so far, has been pretty steady. You DO know what you want, and you are doing what you feel you need to do to achieve those goals. You just have to keep trusting yourself.

GH

[MuddleThrough]

Also consider that always blaming her anger/actions on guilt may be, in itself, a "superior" or at least "wrong" in terms of perspective idea.

Yeah, this is something I struggle with, because I'm aware that I might be projecting what I want to see onto her actions in an effort to maintain my own outlook. I have wondered recently whether I haven't really understood the legitimacy of the complaints my W has had about me in an effort to protect myself, and therefore haven't acted on them. In saying this, though, I wonder if I'm not trying to find a way to make this all about me, when it's not - saying that this is the way it is because of something I have done or haven't done right yet. I think there's some truth to this, but how much is unclear.

She may indeed NOT feel guilt but rather thinks that this whole thing is the greatest prospect she has for a happy life.

This I believe to be true. I hope this changes as her awareness of the cost grows and I hope she starts to realize the fantasy element of it.

I think you are still doing remarkably well considering all things, and I have faith that you will continue on the path that so far, has been pretty steady. You DO know what you want, and you are doing what you feel you need to do to achieve those goals. You just have to keep trusting yourself.

This is where I begin to doubt myself, at the whole trusting myself point! I wouldn't be here if I was worthy of my own trust, right? If my intuition was worth something, I wouldn't be here. But, at the same time, I'm well aware that because my W was in the state she was, regardless of my contribution to that state, she still made the decision to escape everything this way. I let her be who she was, which I'm proud of - and it's always something she valued in me and our relationship - and she became this person on her own.

I appreciate that you think I'm doing well here. I hope I can make some more progress and not get caught up in my own emotions, or my investment in the outcome I want. I have come to realize that I haven't let go nearly as much as I thought, and I think it's to my detriment. But this letting go stuff isn't easy - especially when my W told me that she thinks I'm not showing her I care about her. She wants to see me fight for her, she wants me to show her I care and support her efforts to be her own person, but yet she has decided she wants nothing to do with me and that I'm standing in the way of her happiness. We are so far removed from each other now, both physically and emotionally that I have no choice but to be my own compass through this. I hope I'm still someone that she'll find attractive under the right circustances, but we'll have to wait and see.

Thanks for dropping by.

[MuddleThrough]

I have found a place of peace again. Last night I was talking about my plans for the upcoming months with my good friend, and how open ended they are, yet they are packed with good stuff in the mean time. I have pretty much committed myself to several years without a relationship because of the sitch, worst case scenario. I'm looking at at least (in my opinion) 18 months before W can file divorce, and from what I've read one should allow at least 2 years after divorce before considering a serious relationship. Also, at this point I plan to keep the door open for that time after divorce too. Maybe this is too much of an investment - it's certainly mildly daunting now - but I can see myself being in a hugely better place after this time period, whether with my W or not.

W and I got along much better yesterday for the most part. One thing, though, when I give her a kiss goodnight (on the cheek now - because her lips are reserved for another) she doesn't return it. I don't know it I should stop doing this or not. I'm thinking yes.

She chatted about stuff in her life kind of like old times. I listened, and enjoyed the time, for the most part. Something wasn't right though. She had this kind of attitude. I got home from work before she had returned from her therapist. When she got in, she was very strange to me. I asked her if she was ok and she gave me the most odd look I have ever gotten from her, I mean her lip curled up like a snarl and she looked possessed. She told me yes and then ran downstairs to the computer. Don't know what that was about. Very, very strange. I'm really curious about what this counselor is talking to her about. I have already heard things from my W about what this counselor thinks about me, or my treatment of her in the M, and I don't like her perspective. I think she's doing a lot of damage to the sitch. Regardless, it's something I can't control.

There are so many signs that this isn't a done deal to me. So many things about the A relationship that I can see that the two of them are ignoring. The fact that this is so out in the open and W STILL hides the screen when I walk in means she's still sneaking around. The fact that she acts so angry with me, that we can't just be friendly and get along despite the fact (to her) that we're over. These facts mean that there's still a lot to be worked through.

I realized last night that I love my W enough to stand by her while she goes through this really difficult time in her life, regardless of where we are headed as a couple. I know she's looking for a lot of answers that only she can find for herself. The only reason I would pull myself out of this relationship is because I want something different for myself. At this point, I think it's far more important to invest myself in loving my W in this deep way, regardless whether she returns it, than to run out and try and make a new life for myself. I know I'll be a better person for it, and hopefully, so will she.