My thread got locked out ( old thread ). Not a whole lot to report. The weekend was interesting. My FIL stayed with us as we had a wedding to go to. W and I went out and had a few drinks with people after the wedding and when we got home, W was a little buzzed. She kissed me passionately over and over, telling me that she was so sorry about the situation, that she felt really bad that it was hurting me. She kept telling me that I was too good a person and that I deserved someone who would treat me the way I deserve to be treated. She kept expressing that she is torn because she doesn't want to destroy what we have, but she feels a sense of belonging to OM and feels that she CAN'T end it. She says that it would be destroying a part of herself (a very accurate statement considering the one sided fantasy I view this as), and that she just doesn't have the strength. I didn't lead any of this conversation on, in fact I listened and validated where I could. She told me she loved me several times, but the first time she did, I could tell she had to really fight with herself to overcome this block.
It was nice to have this closeness again, and I really felt that it was somewhat normal. I didn't concern myself too much with what it meant, even though I'm posting it here as a pretty significant event . I didn't allow it to give me a high, as I would have early in the sitch. I do think it confirms that there's still a lot of hope (as if I needed more confirmation) but I need to keep my expectations in check.
Apparently, my cousin has been really having a hard time with the proposed meeting of the two of them. Somewhere, I have always felt that he was spineless and was happy using this sitch the way it was, but wouldn't want to "make it real." Who knows, maybe they will. W told me that he wanted to write to me recently. Not sure how I would take that, and I'm not sure how I take his desire to have contact with me, even though it could be something he has told her just to make him look like a good and decent human. Again, not something I spend time thinking about.
I am in a good place - I feel confident in myself, healthy, making good decisions. I have been getting along with my W much better (W said to me the other day: "How come when I treat you nicely we get along so well?" - well, duh!) and have been leading a much more fulfilling life. I can't tell you the last time I felt left out, or like I didn't have anything to do because W, or someone else backed out of plans. I have been valuing each and every minute of my life and I don't feel anything has been wasted at this point.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Apparently, W has been having a really hard time with the trip too. She told me last night that she was (although I think it's more to do with the stress of doing anything in real life, than any strong guilt - maybe I'm not giving her enough credit). She asked me if I would always love her, which I told her I would, and she said "even if I go do this?". I told her again that I would, and she asked me if it would change things if she were to do it. I told her that it likely would because it was crossing a clear line, but that I wouldn't stop loving her. She told me she was surprised, because she didn't think it would make things change with us. WTF!!!! In writing this I am realizing that what we were talking about might have been subtly different in each other's minds, and we didn't really get this out into the open.
Anyway, she's been needing a lot more emotional support recently, in the form of hugs and stuff. I'm sort of ambivalent about giving her this sort of support, especially because I know the root of her vulnerability stems from the A. Oh well. She told me that she wished we could have retained more of our communication throughout this, meaning that she wishes there hadn't been a wedge forced between us, and that we could have gone on the way we were while she was exploring this!
Again, she told me that my cousin was having a really hard time with this. She asked me if I could ever love him again. I didn't give her much of an answer, other than to tell her that I didn't want to be hateful, so I was doing my best not to hate anyone.
Again she told me that my being nice to her makes doing this (taking THE trip) that much harder for her. She even told me "even if I go, I might not be able to do IT." But almost in the next breath she said that if she went she would have to have a good time.
She has been physically having trouble with manfestations of stress. I feel really bad for her, and when I told her that - in response to her telling me that she felt bad about "this" (she never will take responsiblity - it's always "this" force outside of her will) hurting me - she asked me if I was blaming her for doing it to herself. I told her that I wasn't, but rather I was being aware of how she was feeling and empathising.
This is such a hard line - being loving, expecting nothing, but also not giving her more than I should given our current R. I feel like I am starting to act on expectations (emotional, not rational) of her desire to return to our M. She even mentioned that she thought we would be having another baby right about now! She is so confused. I need to be a rock here, and I know that I have to act despite her moods or actions towards me. I have to truly give because I want to and not to get something in return.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
In my experience when we, the males, are thinking about the sexual aspect of these A's the females aren't. Of course, my experience (thank God) is quite limited in this area. As strange as it sounds, I think spouses are more caught up in the emotional aspect of their fantasy. We're caught up in the "getting it on" part. I know when my W asked if she could spend the night at her the OW's because the OW needed support (she needs a shrink, not support!) I told her it made me sick inside to think of them together in that way. My W looked at me in shock, and said disgustedly "we don't do that!" Well,excuse me, what was I thinking!I guess I just forgot that they are on a higher plane than the rest of us lustful creatures. I wouldn't doubt your W is so caught up in the "romantic" notion that the sexual part isn't even in her head but it's sure as heck in yours (rightfully so). Therefore she's shocked that her trip might in some way change your view of her and the R. I'm so pleased to hear that her feelings for you (buzzed or not) are still there. Hope springs eternal (I think that's how that goes). P.S. just for the record, your cousin is an A-hole Muddle!
Quote: In my experience when we, the males, are thinking about the sexual aspect of these A's the females aren't.
This is something I have read of often. I think in general it's true, but I'm not sure how much a sexual act will change how I think of her or them - this is difficult to predict. To me, what has happened so far is about as bad as it could be - my concern is more for her being bound to the fantasy that much more.
Quote: I wouldn't doubt your W is so caught up in the "romantic" notion that the sexual part isn't even in her head but it's sure as heck in yours (rightfully so). Therefore she's shocked that her trip might in some way change your view of her and the R.
She has told me many times in the past that "this is really going to change things" and "right now things are innocent, but if I go. . .". She has often maintained that because nothing physical has happened she isn't having an "affair". So, there's no doubt in my mind that this is a very significant line for her to be crossing. As for the sexual side of it, I have no doubt that this is a very large part of it, but I do think you are right in that she sees this lust as "something people in love do" rather than a motivating factor. So, no, I don't think she's "shocked" - I see that more as the way she is posturing herself, but yes, I do think that she is not putting the emphasis on the sexual acts (although I have no doubt this is a big fantasy too) but rather the romantic, emotional closeness is her motivation for the trip.
Quote: I'm so pleased to hear that her feelings for you (buzzed or not) are still there. Hope springs eternal (I think that's how that goes).
Thanks - I am glad to see them every now and again too!
Quote: P.S. just for the record, your cousin is an A-hole Muddle!
Oh really?! I hadn't noticed!!! You know, I have tried to find all sorts of compassion for him and forgiveness, and it helps me, but he just keeps on making the stupid decisions he is. I have lost not only a marriage that I thought was great, trust for the woman that was my best friend, an intact vision for where my life was headed, but I also lost my cousin, who was a good friend to me through the years. He and I were far closer than I am with any of my cousins in the US, and this makes it all that much harder. I maintain hope that my W and I will reconcile, and we can recover much of what I feel has been lost between us, but I have had to give up everything with regard to my cousin. That's difficult. Every once in a while my W tells me something about a family member out there not doing so well, and it hurts me that she's getting this information, not me. Oh well, what can you do?
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
So, last night after my W came home from therapy and before I had to leave for my other job, she comes in to talk to me. She tells me that she had a full fledged panic attack in therapy - that she had anxiety earlier in the day that built until she was there. She told me that she was talking about something (wouldn't tell me what - but I know she talks about the sitch there) and it got her so amped up that she had to put her head down. The only thing that got her to calm down was changing the subject. She actually had 2 panic attacks. Anyway, point is, after she explained this to me (who was listening very intently) she tells me "you know, if I go or not next week - which is still up in the air - this thing could just go away." She had a tearful look in her eyes when she told me this, and she followed it up with "you know a couple of weeks or months ago I couldn't have admitted this." I have NO idea what she means, and although curiosity nearly got the best of me, I simply asked her if she would like a hug, and told her that I wished there was something I could do to make her feel better. Then she tells me "please continue to be patient. Hang in there for me."
My guess: he's backing out, sort of. Should this be the case, it doesn't really make me too happy. I think the ideal situation would be her making the decision that this is wrong and wanting to work on our M, not coming back to our M by default, which I think is happening somewhat. Things started to get rocky with them, and I became more valuable to her, she wanted to smooth things out with me to the best of her ability. I guess we have to play the hand we're dealt, but there's a lot of potential for nastiness here, and I need to make sure I don't get my hopes/expectations up, and that I remain detached.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Muddle, my time is short so I won't "marathon" you here. What I will offer is that you don't get too caught up in the real or perceived motivations behind things. It's the actions that matter and the opportunities they present you with, i.e. if she decides not to go, please don't allow yourself to be soured by WHY she didn't go, simply adjust to the new reality of her staying and make the best of it. Allow yourself the freedom from those "evil" thoughts and just BE with your W.
Sure, it may make you feel more secure knowing that she chose to take the moral high-ground, but in the end, the fact that she took high-ground at all may be the best she could do at the time, and in her own way, the most sincere expression of "trying" she's capable of. Don't punish her for not living up to your desire that she be motivated by the highest ideals.
Thanks GH, I think you're right about that. I try to look at things for what they are right now, but it's easy to slip back into projecting what her actions now mean for the future. I need to stop this, even though I am FAR more detached from it. It is good though in my opinion to think about what is acceptable down the road. I know that I want a real reconciliation, not one because it just didn't work out with OP. This is where a true separation would be helpful as it would provide clarity on this issue - one that my W has verbalized the importance of.
I'm not punishing her, unless you're seeing something that I'm not. I think a big part of this for me, and it might just come down to my desire to fix her, is that should the situation dictate what she can and can't do rather than her choices she hasn't learned or grown from this. I want her to be empowered and clear that she is where she is because she is choosing to be. I guess I have to get this fantasy out of my head too!
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
I want to make it clear (should have said this before) that I think you are doing GREAT with the empathy and validation. Nobody could ask for any more. I don't think you are punishing her at all. In fact, you are being VERY compassionate towards her, something that must be really hard right now.
All I was trying to warn against is that resentment that could creep in just because she doesn't cancel the trip or end the A for the reasons YOU would like. The important part would be her actions, not necessarily the motivation... IMHO.
I see your point. I'm doing my best to keep resentment in check, although I do have to say that I never would have thought I was or would create it in the way you suggest. I guess this comes from not yet having the experience you have. I think I have been adapting to whatever the situation IS at any given point (in truth, if I was too concerned with her intentions, I would have given up long ago), but I have had my battles with resentment already, and I have no doubt that once out of crisis mode, this will be far greater an issue.
Thanks, as always, for your support.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Well, I've backslid a bit since I last posted. Nothing too major (at least I hope) in the sense that it has or will hurt the sitch any. W has decided to go (only I found out today that she's not going overseas, but they're meeting somewhere in the US - I saw the amtrak window open). I can't say I am really surprised, even though all of her flip flopping gave me a bit of hope (and allowed me to find an excuse to attach myself to her actions - go ahead, slap my wrist). I knew while going through this that I shouldn't hope for anything - and I thought I was doing pretty well. Once she confirmed she was going, I did however start to feel hurt and angry. This is what I'm upset with myself for, and while I know it's normal and natural to feel this way, I thought I was in a better place. I guess part of this has to do with me allowing myself to become more vulnerable, in response to HER desiring this of me. She wanted the security of knowing I still love and care about her, and while I was distant she acted in a way to encourage me to act more like the "old" me - expressing my love through affection and attention, etc.
So anyway, this afternoon at lunch she tells me I've been weird to her for the past couple days - short answers, etc. - to which I responded: "this is not easy for me, and any weirdness from me is my effort to control my emotions, not punishment. Please try and understand where I'm coming from." To this she responded that it's not fun for her either, and that she's trying hard to manage her emotions and she doesn't know what to do to make it easier for me. She says she's been trying as hard as she can but it doesn't seem to make it any easier.
So, this is where things break down in my book. She's trying, and by trying she's being MORE affectionate, MORE loving, and she's told me she loves me on several occassions. If there were a clear cut "I'm leaving you, things between us suck and things between me and OM are going to make me happy" it would be much easier to manage my emotions. I guess this is why we try to take ALL the focus off of what our WASs are doing. I either fell off, or it's simply not possible to give to the degree I think I should be and NOT be detached to the point where this doesn't matter. I guess another real issue to me is that this is my W willfully stepping across a clear line after 7 plus months of existing over a somewhat vague one. She is deciding to become this person despite the fact that things are better between us and she is making plans for our near term future together, etc. She could say that the EA "just happened" but this is clearly a willful step.
I keep catching myself in these moments of anger, thinking things about her that I don't want to. I have been decently disciplined about stopping these thoughts, but it still is difficult to manage. Well, I need to get through this next week (she's leaving Wednesday, returning Sunday) and see where I am on the other side. What a ride.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
. I didn't allow it to give me a high, as I would have early in the sitch. I do think it confirms that there's still a lot of hope (as if I needed more confirmation) but I need to keep my expectations in check.