Positively 3rd thread - how do you deal with this?

[soonergal]

Wow, Always, what powerful words you have just given PL! I've been at this for 10 months and I learn something new everyday or at the minimum, how to look at things in a different way.

At first I was going to say a note might not be so bad, but now I can see how it might be taken as controlling and pursuit when all we would mean would be trying to show concern. I agree, the MLC mind will twist it all around and our best intentions will be warped in their minds.
And it doesn't matter how 'we' think they may interprete something, it will be different each time they bring it up. So the best thing may be to just sit quietly. I know, we all hate to keep hearing this but it's true!

Right now, our agenda is different than our MLCers and we have to remember to take things at a snails pace. They are incapable of anything else. I just had a wonderful morning interacting w/my H thru a number of phone calls so I'm flying on cloud 9 right now! I agree, they all have to work thru it all by themselves and we can not hurry them up one little bit.

Keep relying on your supportive friends and your BB buddies! We will all walk beside you until H wakes up!
{{{hugs}}}
Sooner

[PositivelyListening]

Hi GH,

Thanks for your really good points yesterday. I think you are correct, although I had never framed it that way - but I do use a positive attitude in my life as a way of "taking care" of myself, which I see is also a protection. The world can be a challenging place. I have a bumper sticker - "Look for the Good and Praise It". It is a defense I suppose, a choice I have made about how to deal with life so that it is really worth living for me. A "glass half full" view as a commitment. So I suppose the defense part of that is a true ache, and perhaps even a fear, of the "other side" ruling the world - the "dark side" Sometimes I feel like the cynics and dooms-day-sayers could just take over if it wasn't for a little pip-squeak like me in the background. Of course I continually hope for enough of a groundswell of positivity to overflow the planet, and look to people like y'all to help with that :-) But, philosophically speaking here, I can see that my stand is polarizing. Perhaps my being so far out on one side of the spectrum places others even farther out on the cynical resigned side just to counteract me And maybe H feels like he can never live up to it - I think he feels like his glass is never quite as full as mine. The OW is apparently a mess, so that helps H feels stronger and more powerful and together. Around me, I think he is feeling like he messed up and failed. How do you turn that around? It seems like that is mostly his work to do. But is some of it mine? I do affirm him and praise and acknowledge him whenever I have the opportunity. However, I am not sure how much sinks in.

Anyway, I am not feeling so positive today. Doesn't feel good, wish I didn't have to say so, but there it is. Somedays I am just sad. I have all the resources to have it be as great as any other day, but sometimes life is just sad. I am grieving today. I have been praying, and the answer I get is to be patient, to focus on myself and my own work, and to trust that all is unfolding as it should. I am willing to do these things. But today I have an aching pit of lonliness in me. I guess I will explore and explore and explore until I learn how to fill that up. I have always gotten my "juice" in life from being a contribution to others. I realize that the reason this situation in my M is so painful and difficult for me, is that I do not recall EVER needing to face this type of rejection. Usually people want what I've got, I'm fun to be around, you know? It is the hardesst thing to keep PMA in the face of this rejection, rejection from one I love so much. And even my D says she doesn't want to be around me right now, not 'til my M issues are all decided and this is "over". She says she "can't handle" me right now. And that's because I'm a little more introspective, not my 100% PMA self. So poop. I suppose to learn that rejection from another person is not about me, but about the other person, if I could get that at a soul level, that would be healing. I love my H, and I love my D. My pain is taking it personally. My work for today or perhaps many days

So, this is a tricky one GH. I am a full spectrum gal - I focus on the positive, but I have my down days too. But in the DBing I have been careful for H to only see me being upbeat. H does not know about all of the nights I have cried, all the sleep I have lost, all of the work I have missed because I couldn't stop crying. He hasn't seen me on the floor on my hands and knees crying and praying for the strength so I could stand by him one more day. And I guess it doesn't help for him to see it or know about it, right? So, meanwhile, H sees the "PMA defense" and my pain is a private pain. I'm not sure sometimes how it helps for them not to know how hurt we are about what they have done and are doing. But I suppose if H was ready to hear about me, and care about me, that he'd be here asking. And then I'd be sad about the past which would be better already . I'll look forward to a day when H wants to talk to me again. Meanwhile, I have a lunch with my soccer friends, and a massage today. That certainly should help turn some of these tears back to laughter and PMA.

[PositivelyListening]

Hi Always & soonergal and all,

Thanks for your words of support. I think I will need to hear this over, and over, and over again. I just need to let H be. OH MY GOD. Action-oriented gal over here, going stir-crazy nuts. I am going to have to get back to some of my basics. Cleaning drawers out, making lists, you know. Because any focus on H is not helping at all right now. I keep thinking there is something I should DO, that would make the difference. So keep reminding me. It's his MLC, it's not over, and until it's over, there's not a whole lot of impact I can have over there. So work on me. If H comes around, be kind, be understanding. And always, be patient. hahaha

This is the hardest thing I have ever done in my life.

Yesterday, H was here. I did not leave him a special note. Just made the house neat, made sure all his bills were in one place, made sure the cats nails were trimmed so when he visited the cat wouldn't snag his clothes. I had left a post-it about the food in the fridge, to help himself. However, H must have jetted in and jetted out. There was almost no sign he had been here, other than his mail being gone. H moved my post-it note aside, also leaving the membership card for discounts at Office Max which I asked him to return if he wouldn't use it. No note, no indication that he spent any time here, definitely didn't eat. I am imagining now, that he must be creating invoices on the laptop I gave him for his little room, because he hasn't done anything on the computer here in at least 6 weeks.

I am begining to think it would be good for me to at least get some legal counsel. I heard about a lawyer in town who is "pro-marriage" and has a mediation approach. He is out of town until the end of the month. But it could be that H is opening new accounts and perhaps he is preparing to "run" all the way, now that he has his new passport and can't stand "the pressure" of our life and his work. I will try not to panic. But in between the sadness I am feeling today, I am afraid I am being a chump. I do not understand how he could be so warm and friendly and loving as he was last week (and invite me on a family vacation), and then so closed down since. He did not seem insincere last week. But who knows what's going on in that head of his. I've heard the WAS sometimes wishes we LBS were dead, because then they wouldn't have to deal with the two worlds issue anymore (and since they don't want to give up OW.... if only we could just drop dead for them) Oh, I guess I am feeling pretty down today.

I am heading out for some good GAL activities. Hope it will be all turned around later.

[grasshopper]

The OW is apparently a mess, so that helps H feels stronger and more powerful and together. Around me, I think he is feeling like he messed up and failed. How do you turn that around? It seems like that is mostly his work to do. But is some of it mine? I do affirm him and praise and acknowledge him whenever I have the opportunity. However, I am not sure how much sinks in.

Ok, I'll give this one a try. I think one of the best ways to flip this is to learn to accept him as he is, without trying to fill OR empty his glass. I think one of the major reasons people may be put on edge by your happiness/PMA, is that it feels to them like they have to change to meet your attitude, which, by your wish that the world would be overrun by happiness, you DO want them to do. No matter how someone feels, thinking that they have to conform to someone else's mood/attitude all the time is a bit off-putting I think. Also, I think many people see it as a false front, even if it's not, and even if they've know you as being that way for years.

I think you correctly identified the problem that your H likes how he feels around OW because he gets to be the "fuller" of the two of them, the one with the good attitude (in comparison) and most of all, he doesn't constantly feel like he's living up to an ideal that he either doesn't share, or isn't capable of right now.

I feel that this paradox is one of the potential areas where DB backfires sometimes. I think our cheerfulness, in the face of such turmoil often gets taken as an act and in some way, deceit. Our PMA is looked at as a lie, one that I guess may cause them pain.

So, back to how you combat this. Maybe by realizing that your H can BE happy without living in the same PMA bubble you do, and more than that, YOU can be happy without making sure everyone knows it.

I sure hope what I am saying is not taken as me wanting you to get rid of the PMA, just that it may be helpful to reel it in sometimes. Of course the problem with that is, as you said, people who know you will immediately suspect something is wrong if the sun doesn't shine out of your ears. To that, I have no answer other than that idea, in-and-of-itself presents it's own set of potential issues, like these people somehow relating their own happiness to you and you feeling the burden for that as well as your own PMA. Like somehow if you are not this bubbly, happy self, they will be let down so even when you don't feel that way, you still ACT like it, thus continuing the cycle.

Wheh...that was a lot of deepish BS, even for me.

I hope there is something of substance in there for you PL.

How about letting a LITTLE tiny ray of sunshine escape for me today, lol.

GH

[grasshopper]

(((((PL))))))

Just thought, aside from all the psychobabble-crap, I should just offer that. Sorry you're down in the dumps. I say f--k em all and let that sunshine free!!!!

GH

[Mamabear]

PL,
Where is my ray of sunshine today? I hope you have gotten out of your slump and are back to being your happy self!

[PositivelyListening]

Hi GH, MamaBear & all, Well I had a pretty big "break down" last night and I am feeling a little better today. Sometimes I just have to let it all out. I was absolutely beside myself last night, couldn't stop crying, couldn't manage to get working on my homework, just aching. It sucks when that happens. I called one of my telephone buddies and was still unable to reach him (it's been a week). Called my other one a bit later, she did get back to me and I had a really good and deep cry and a good talk and felt better afterwards. I was just somehow hopeless and devastated, in disbelief, and actually feeling desperate. For the first time, I wanted to call H and do the begging and pleading thing. I have never had that inclination before. I went from numb to DBing straightaway. But last night, I was feeling like H has no idea how much I miss him, and how much I want him to come home. I know this will not help me right now to tell him, but oh I wanted to because some part of me just can't believe he could even consider walking away from everything we have created together. If he could just see how devastated I am, then he would come home... I love him with all my heart, and he used to feel that way about me. How could he forget? I am surrounded by our memories, and he is in another world, that's how. In fact I discovered today, that in his trunk in the garage, are all of the little love notes and cards and photos from when we courted. And all of the cards since we were married are in his office here. All the gifts, photos, most of the things that represent our life are here. So he is in another world with new stuff where he has no reminders of us. And I, on the other hand, feel I am surrounded by H in my home. We were married here in the back yard, with all of our friends and family. I gave myself over in every way, the space here is our space. It is not the same now with him missing. I can hardly stand it sometimes. And I want to let him know, I want him to know how it is for me. And I can't? I was in dispair.

My friend listened well. She reminded me of the progress that has been made. She believes in H too. After a while I told her that I hold on to the picture of H's face in my head, from the last good encounter we've had. The last one currently, is our lunch from last Friday - he was so warm and loving and he kissed me good bye twice on the lips. That keeps me going during the dark times, and reminds me that H is a good man and loves me. You see, when I see him even now, we connect, and I can tell he loves me. There is no pretending, no denying. I believe this is why H feels like he needs to stay away from me. Because when he sees me, he is connected to me, and he is stirred with warm feelings and love for me. I can tell. In fact, every time he speaks to me, he warms up as we talk. He starts out cool or even icy, and then he melts. I can tell he misses me. But in his head, the less I am around, the bigger the wall gets. Then when he talks to me or sees me it melts. That has been true without fail, every time. It is not an "absence makes the heart grow fonder" thing for him as far as I can tell. So how much space should I give a guy who is trying to force himself to let go of me? Maybe lots, so he realizes how stupid that is? I dunno. The space vs. some contact issue gets me every time. I often think H wants me to rescue him. But then if I do, after a while, he resents it. If any of you are not familiar, this Victim-Persecuter-Rescuer thing is called the "Drama Triangle". It's a sign of unhealthiness in an R. [BTW - There is a really good quick and light read on this, called "The Power of Ted: The Empowerment Dynamic" by David Emerald which I highly recommend if you are intrested in transforming this kind of pattern]. So my work is not to get hooked and jump into drama with H.

I decided talking with my friend last night, that H is likely not doing very well. His paperwork re: his business that arrives here, and his mail at the PO Box etc, are not being picked up often enough for him to be functioning well in his business. H is scattered, and likely doing the thing that is right in front of him to do, peddaling as fast as he can. I don't want to see him crash and burn. I wish I could help, but I am purposefully resisting this urge. I understand now, that H will have to realize that he wants me in his life, that my presence matters to him, and not just for business reasons. I can not rescue H and have a healthy R with him. I need him to see that OW is bringing him down (because H is trying to rescue her), and I need him to realize that our R was the best thing that ever happened. It doesn't matter that everyone else can see that. H has to see that. And it doesn't matter that our R, just like all R's, needed work. I am willing. But at some point H has to be willing or we will not go forward. Anyway, last night I was devastated once again to acknowledge that H does not already know how valuable I am. I find this stunning. I have been reviewing our life together, and I actually think that I was probably the best thing that ever happened to H. Unfortunately for H, that's what his B & SIL and parents think too. Maybe that is tough for H to deal with. Hopefully he will realize this and feel like he deserves me before it is too late.

That is not to say I do not have faults. I have thought a lot today about how depressed I was during H's A (before he told me). He had distanced himself so much, and I didn't know what to do. I wasn't exercising, had gained weight, and was feeling truly unloved and unwanted. Withdrew myself, was somewhat resigned. I was "waiting" instead of being in action. I thought we were OK, we were going to therapy, and I thought we were making progress. But H was lying and it was all a false front. And I was too complacent and patient and accepting of how it was. And nagging and complaining about small things instead of dealing with the real issues.

So today I can't say I am merry sunshine or anything, but I am in action. In fact, I am fighting off the tendency to feel guilty for taking care of myself so well. I have thought a lot about this today too. During the last year before the separation, I was wearing K-mart underwear, wasn't taking care of myself, fun time together (without "work" attached) was few and far between, and my thoughts in my head were, the business, the house, the kids, our work, these things come first - we have to sacrifice right now to get ahead for later. We were on a 10 year plan, which stalled mid-way because it was out-of-balance. We started a million house projects that are still mid-stream, got ourselves really out on a limb financially, and pushed pushed pushed all the time. I thought we could handle it, as a team. Boy have I learned a lesson. So today, I took the dog to the groomer's, got a manicure/pedicure, ordered two sets of tickets for theatre under the stars before the summer season and weather is gone, bought some new thongs at Victoria's Secret and I found an awesome sale at Ann Taylor where I bought some new clothes. Now here's the deal: I feel a tinge of guilt when I do these things. My mother used to always take her presents back, and never bought clothes unless they were on sale. She would let my dad take me out to lunch with my grandma, and she would stay home to "save money". So this is my mother's guilt, and it wasn't healthy for her and I don't think it was healthy for me. I deserve to be well cared for, and it's attractive, you know? Being a martyr is not attractive. But I am afraid that H will stop the $$ coming, and make me wrong and tell me I am selfish and self-centered and whatever. Just so you know though, H has never done that in the past. And H has never asked me to take something back to the store, or not to get a massage, or anything, ever. But I know when he feels the pressure, this is something I could do to help. And I feel like H is not around to enjoy and appreciate me either, which makes it even harder. I want him to see me, and be in awe... But today, I have been thinking, H has been spending money to visit OW - OUR money. And HUGE phone bills, and calling cards, etc. Buying her stuff at the Body Shop every time before he goes there. Yuck. These are our joint assets H has spent in a way that is totally counter-productive to our M. I am trying to save our M by taking care of myself. Seriously, is this right, or am I deluding myself? I have always been really really generous, so I am not sure I have any sense of balance here on my own. But when H and I have the $$ conversation, I realized I am not willing to have him pay less into our household just so I can make it easier for H to spend $$ on his A. Is this wrong? I am not squirreling away $$ in preparation for H leaving. I am acting like he will be staying right here, and if I keep myself up this way, H will never be able to resist.... LOL But if H doesn't make it all the way back to me in his heart, well I won't have a lot of $$ in the bank, but I will certainly have all the personal "assets" well cared for.

Your thoughts on this, the delicate balance between self-care and spending/squandering $$ would be appreciated.

Meanwhile, I am processing alot about myself and how I manage myself in the world, as you can see. I want to be the best self I can be. Some of this is new territory.

[RBinBR]

I am surrounded by our memories, and he is in another world, that's how. In fact I discovered today, that in his trunk in the garage, are all of the little love notes and cards and photos from when we courted. And all of the cards since we were married are in his office here. All the gifts, photos, most of the things that represent our life are here. So he is in another world with new stuff where he has no reminders of us. And I, on the other hand, feel I am surrounded by H in my home. We were married here in the back yard, with all of our friends and family. I gave myself over in every way, the space here is our space. It is not the same now with him missing. I can hardly stand it sometimes. And I want to let him know, I want him to know how it is for me. And I can't? I was in dispair.

This may seem to be a radical idea, but I think you eventually should consider moving out. For me, getting my own apartment and leaving the memories, pictures, honeymoon souveniers, etc. behind was incredibly liberating. In the long term, PL, you won't be happy in that house without him.

But when H and I have the $$ conversation, I realized I am not willing to have him pay less into our household just so I can make it easier for H to spend $$ on his A. Is this wrong? I am not squirreling away $$ in preparation for H leaving. I am acting like he will be staying right here, and if I keep myself up this way, H will never be able to resist

It's hard to really detach when you are dependent on your H for $$$, isn't it? I hate to say this, but I think it's very dangerous for you to plan your future based on your H's changing and coming back. I know that you won't squirrel money away or do anything deceitful, but I also don't think you should let him continue to blow all YOUR money (and half of it is yours) on the OW. That isn't being generous ... that's enabling the affair.

PL, I'm going to ask you a tough question: are worries about money (possibly unfounded) keeping you from taking the best course of action in your sitch? If so, then I think you need to talk to a lawyer about protecting yourself financially.

Just my two cents...

[PositivelyListening]

Hi RB,

You asked:

PL, I'm going to ask you a tough question: are worries about money (possibly unfounded) keeping you from taking the best course of action in your sitch? If so, then I think you need to talk to a lawyer about protecting yourself financially.

I don't think so. I think I am just a worrier about $$. My mom's issues, my early adult life issues. When my D was little I used to worry that I would end up homeless or in a fleabag weekly hotel and that they would take my D away because I couldn't provide for her. When she was 8, I bought a van (so I could cart the carpools around), it was my first new car ever. But I remember thinking, well now if we are homeless we will have someplace to sleep. So my money thing is an old worry thing. I am not sure that I have balance around it. I have a beautiful home (although it needs upkeep) in an area where property values are astronomical. But my salary is low (I work for a non-profit) and I live here with a bunch of students in the house to cover the mortgage. Am I attached to this house? Probably. Should I let go of it if H and I split for good? Maybe, but I can't go there yet. I owned the house before H, and my D and my foster D spent all of their JR high and high school years here, and everyone loves this house. I would have to leave the area if I sold it, leave my community where I have been 30 + years, because I could never afford the taxes here if I bought a different one. So poop, I am attached, and I have lots of reasons. I had a good plan, and I liked it. H was the icing and cherry on top of an already amazing life. I came up from being a single mom with a dog, two cats and a baby on welfare to owning this house, in a twelve year span.

I may need to go see a lawyer sometime, you are right. I go in and out about when. But the truth is, I want my H to come home. I do not want to take steps that will push him father away. I do not even really want to think those thoughts and make them real. But if H takes any further steps that will financially hurt me, I will get protection. Right now, I disagree with his A and his spending on the A. But believe it or not, I do not consider H's spending amounts unreasonable yet. H has not gone hog wild. There are no additional debts on the credit cards, in fact he is paying them off better than when he was here. If we D, I will take the costs of his A into account with a lawyer, and will do my best to make him compensate me for EVERYTHING if that's possible. But my financial sitch will not be better with H gone. His income has just begun to bear fruit. When H came here, his business started from scratch. H did not even have a truck, just some equipment. I covered costs for H for a while in the beginning. If we ever have to move ahead with a D, I will document all that. But in our community property state, if H & I got ugly, we could end up in a fight over assets in the house, assets in the business, etc. by havig a different view of what actually happened and what is "right" or "fair". I don't want that to happen. I know H & I view our financial sitch differently already. So, I really hope we don't ever have to get into a polarized disagreement about it. Because everyone will lose if that happens. Right now, I think the best thing I can do is be patient and see if H's heart comes home. I am considering contacting a lawyer just for an opinion on what could happen since most everything I have said is my own sense of it, but not with a lot of legal background knowledge. But a D is just not what I want in my heart. And, funny me, I really do believe deep deep in my heart and soul and spirit that H will find his way home. I would much prefer a happy ending. Sorry to say, I do not see the disolution of the M as a happy ending for my future. I hope and pray that we do not go there. If that is meant to be, at some point I suppose I will know and then I will decide that another future is better than the one I was envisioning with H. Will I be OK if it doesn't work out? You bet. But I am not at all interested in those thoughts right now. Does that make me attached to a specific outcome, and put pressure on? I'm not sure, maybe. But I don't think so, because I picture H free to make up his own mind right now. We are separated, he is experiencing life without me. And right now he says he likes it, even though he does not look happy to me. I know he has to choose me again for me to want to remain M in the long term. So, I guess I am giving H a little more time. At least today. It is a day-to-day re-evaluation. But right now, I am thinking my sitch will be dramatically different by next spring. And that gives me patience for a little longer. We shall see.

[RBinBR]

I owned the house before H, and my D and my foster D spent all of their JR high and high school years here, and everyone loves this house.

Fair enough. I didn't have your life's timeline down right, lol.

As far as the lawyer thing goes, I got a lot of peace of mind by understanding what my options were. It was good for me to learn about the collaborative process, and it was good for me to learn that we could have everything split through a legal separation that would protect me financially while preserving the marriage.

But a D is just not what I want in my heart. And, funny me, I really do believe deep deep in my heart and soul and spirit that H will find his way home. I would much prefer a happy ending. Sorry to say, I do not see the disolution of the M as a happy ending for my future. I hope and pray that we do not go there.

I don't want to go there in my sitch either, PL, but I'm not planning for my W to do something that I have no control over. I've decided that I will be happy and have a great future no matter what. You've decided to attach your future happiness to your M, which I think keeps you from detaching and dramatically increases the pressure on the R. Trust me when I tell you that your H can sense this and feels that pressure, even if you don't articulate it. Don't let your happiness be dependent on your H or anyone else.