Positively 3rd thread - how do you deal with this?

[PositivelyListening]

Hi Jokerman, Thanks so much for saying this:

I agree with Always. It will pass. He is not the man you married and is making decisions and judgements that in are in a total fog.

Believe it or not, I want this to be so, more than anything. Funny to want it to be a fog, but it is so much better than thinking it is a permanent condition. I figure I can wait a little longer to see my true H again. I can imagine how that will be, when he emerges from the fog. I pray for that. I can picture the most amazing M, with love, new insight, growth and passion. I must be patient.

I too waffle between those two camps - the one that says "be patient, be kind, be loving, never give up" and the one that is all those things but with the "tough love" twist - a little more straight, exposing the crap, shining the spotlight on the garbage so you can clean it out. So far, I have not added the second piece. It's not quite as patient. I have been aware of H's need for privacy which is so much greater than my own, and his shame. Not wanting to make it worse, to force him to run into hiding. Actually, Chuck the DB coach explained it to me this way: DBing, he said, is like the LBS having a great picnic. All the fixins are there, games, beautiful day, good food and drink, fun people. The WAS is with LBS but then the WAS gets scared (we don't know why) and runs and hides behind the wall. Chuck says the first thing the LBS wants to do is run after him (is he playing hide and seek? where did he go?) but that's the worst thing to do - if you do that they run farther, behind a bigger thicker wall, because they're scared). So, the thing to do is to keep enjoying the picnic. Have a good time, glance over every once in a while, but mostly just let them alone. The WAS will eventually peek out from behind the wall, and eventually, if it is not dangerous or scary where you are, they come back and sit with you on the blanket. And you treat them like a beaten dog you want to adopt at the pound. You take it very slow, and you let them come to you. And you are gentle, patient and kind.

I actually had an experience at a dog shelter once, with a very frightened dog. I was very patient, in an open area, and just squated in the corner and talked softly to him for a long time. There were other dogs and people running around. But I was very patient and waited for him. The shelter staff said I was the first person that the dog ever came to - he eventually let me pet him. I had forgotten about that story until just now. I know what those eyes look like, those frightened flat eyes. I will have more compassion for H now than ever. H has those same eyes sometimes. I will remember that sweet little dog.

I imagine not much of that is relevant to you, since you chose to come back to your W. But patience is required in dealing with fear. And your W may have some of that too. I am now realizing clearer than ever, that my H is really quite afraid. I must be his friend. I must just love him, no matter what.

And through all this today, this writing and responding to all of you, I am realizing that I must periodically reach out to H, and reassure him that he is loved and he is welcome. Nothing fancy, no demands, no expectations. D25's b-day party is Saturday, and he did not call her yesterday on her day. I suspect in his fog he has forgotten. I have not spoken to H since Sunday, and of course the mistaken text message came on Monday am. I know he will be hurt if he is not invited to the B-day even though I believe he will decline. I realized while writing this, that he may be feeling ashamed that I got the text message intended for OW. I think he knows it happened. I need to rise above making him wrong for forgetting or ignoring D's b-day, and not add to his shame or whatever is going on with him. Just a quick check-in, handle the business of b-days and missing money for bills, and then leave him be again for another two weeks. I also realized that I could transfer the $$ every two weeks per our agreement from his business account to the house acct on-line, so he wouldn't have to remember to write a check and bring it. I was worried that he might freak out about that idea if I brought it up, as he periodically forgets that we have shared accounts which I can access Of course, if he was worried that I would "take" money without asking, he can be reassured that I would never do that. This is an area where I can continue to build his trust. I must manage my integrity impeccably, that I see.

Hang in there. Just like my wife...you are MORE than the H deserves right now.

In time he will resent himself and the OW.

Thank you for saying this. I need support to keep hanging in, to keep my focus, to keep my PMA, to keep my patience. And I surely hope you are right

[always_14]

Hi PL....thanks for your post on my thread. My thoughts on "exposing or not" is not to do that. Take faith that the A will come to an end on it's own, and it should. Not by your hand. It was not started by you, and will only end on it's own. I have heard a few folks here say that when they tried the tough love method of exposing, etc, it only pushed the person to the OP faster. It made them hate the spouse...and if you're dealing with MLC, pushes them further in the tunnel.

You're trying to create a "crisis" to get them to snap out of the A by exposing. They have to snap out of it in their own, face that it's WRONG on their own. ANd they will. He knows perfectly well right now that you think it's wrong and that you're hurt by it. So that doesn't make a difference.

Sit still and you WILL get there. He is working himself out of the MLC. My H did the same. How many times I wanted to scream to the world what he was doing, while he had his cake and ate it too, had a great time at work as the hero. Well, recently, with no effort on my part, rumors have come out about his A, and he is totally humilated and crippled at work, everyone sees him for the sleazeball he was (that is the perception). He is angry, and tries to cover it up by saying that "well, I had asked you for a D and you didn't give it to me fast enough (OK, 2 weeks is enough time for a D??) and my favorite...we agreed to see other people since our M was so bad, which we never did...if we did, why lie about it, hide it....

Anyway....just hang tight. This is horrible b/c here you are, improving yourself, GAL, living as best you can, and there is this person you, for some insane reason, still love, and they are totally going south with everything. Living in total mayhem and dysfunction.

Hang in there, the madness will end.

[RBinBR]

PL, that was a brilliant post. I've seen those "dog pound eyes" of fear in my W as well. Thanks so much for that.

Always, I think that exposing works IF the attachment to the OP is not as strong as the attachment to the family. I know a guy who just recently stopped a "casual" affair that was (for him, anyway) strictly about sex. If it had been exposed, it would have ended immediately. You are right, though, that in most of our sitches, the emotional attachment to the OP is stronger than the attachment to the LBS, so exposure forces the WAS to choose, and they usually choose the OP.

[PositivelyListening]

LONG POST COMING - Sorry! alot happened today

Hello Always & everyone,

First thank you so much Always for writing to me. As of today, I am QUITE sure that the patience method (not the "force the issue" method) will create the results I am seeking in my M. But it helps so much to hear it (again and again as needed! ) because my patience periodically wears so thin and my frustration periodically runs so high, that I need all of you to touch base with, so I do not blow it at a crucial time. I am so grateful. I need y'all to know, as committed as I am, I think I would not make it without this board and my two good friends who get it and are 100 % committed along with me. So thank you Always, and all of you. When this sitch totally turns around, and we are working on our M together again, it will be in large part due to all of you. And if for any reason that's not what happens, I will know that I had the best resources and the best support anyone could ever have. But here's the deal: I am HOPEFUL today. Not so hopeful that I am stupid or naieve. But HOPEFUL nonetheless. And oh boy does that feel better. I feel like the prayers are beginning to work too. Keep them coming.

So, what happened today? I decided last night that H may have realized that he had sent me the text message intended for OW. And if he did realize it, he might feel embarrassed and ashamed which would cause him to stay away, not knowing how I would react. Alternatively, H has been buried in work, and stressed about that, which has been a constant for months (years?). He is working 7 days/week, which was a big issue in our M. I am a "quality time" LL gal, and there was H working all the time. Of course, now the pressure is probably at a peak, since he is supporting "two households". More on that later.

Anyway, I texted H this morning. Seems the least invasive type of contact, as H can respond when he wants, or not. Sent him 3 tidbits in one text: "Happy anniversary present, your passport has arrived! Also, can I get the check for 8/1? Also, are you coming to D's b-day party Saturday? Wow, 3-in-1. Luv 2 you." Amazing how much you can generate in one efficient 10 cent text message. H probably loves that, he doesn't like too much chatter.

Anyway, he called back and I missed it. 1 1/2 hours later I called H back. (I was at the dentist - new white teeth, looking better and better these days ) H was stressed, work stuff. I offered to pick up his mail and bring it to him (40 minutes out of my way - he REALLY appreciated that I would do that) H didn't know about D's b-day party, totally wanted to rearrange his schedule to come. He was due to receive an award for outstanding president in a service club he has been part of, and he is going to rearraange that!! He asked who would be there (and it's a BIG group, and a challenging one for H. H is brave and obviously thinks this is important enough to push himself to be there for D). Then, he invited me to lunch today.

H was very happy to see me. Wrote me a check, started going on about needing to reduce the amount he is paying, too much pressure, all the reasons, etc. I could feel myself getting hooked with the threat, fear, issue with money going to OW visits, etc. Managed to pause and be silent. Realized he was hungry, stressed. I stayed calm. Finally he said we could talk about it later, that now was not the time. I said I was ready and willing to talk to him about the finances whenever he wanted to - that I was worried too, so I understand. OK. (Phew!)

H took me to lunch for sushi. I thought we would go for this burrito place he likes. He says, "I go there every day, but you're here!" I said, "oh I'm here, it's a special occasion?" He says, "yes!" On the way, H wanted to stop by our friend's shop, to see friend. I felt he was showing me off. It was so nice. Friend does not know we are separated. We caught up about the kids, life activities, etc. Compliments, how good I look. Friend said to H, isn't it nice to see how everything turns out alright? H looked really worried about that, and said "most things, I'm not sure about everything." I looked at him and said softly, "Everything is working out just right. A little at a time, it's all good." I was wearing a t-shirt from my favorite shirt company "Life is Good" right on the front.

Had a lovely lunch. Another friend(2) was at lunch with his wife. I knew F2 first, but H knows him better now, working on his house, took him out for a beer, lives in the small town where H's shop and rented room are, etc. I think F2 knows we are separated, since H is around him a lot. F2 seemed really happy to see me with H, I was very warmly greeted. H decided to take me by the work site (F2's new house.) Wow, I am getting the whole inclusion tour today. I am a happy camper. But here's the capper. H tells me at lunch that his B & SIL want to take another trip to Mexico again over the holidays, as we did together 2 years ago. Oh my God! H wants me to take a family vacation with him in December/January! I stayed cool. I was literally already planning my holidays without H. Yesterday, I was looking into a cruise, was going to ask my birth mother to go, and send the D's off to their boyfriend's houses this year - or just Xmas at home and then off to our own things right after. All I said to H was, "I am glad you let me know, because I was just in the midst of making other plans." H said, "let's call them right now to get the dates, do I have their number in my phone?" OK, I'm along for the ride. We call SIL at home, I get to speak with my neice too, with H there. I know some of this trip planning is SIL doing. Her family lives in Mexico. SIL is the only one who knows the deeper truth about our sitch beyond the separation (that there is an OW). I told SIL when we had that brief informative talk, that I thought being around family would help H. God bless her, SIL is subtle but she is effective. Time on the phone with my neice and SIL in front of H was well spent too. As Chuck the DB coach says, "OW will never be able to provide H with family. All she will ever do is take it away. No one else can provide what you provide. You keep bringing family together, and H will see that at some point, and how important that is. OW can't provide that, H's ex-W can't provide that, only YOU can provide that." I felt that today.

H did take me to the job site too. And, right before I left, H expressed to me again that he was worried about $$, that he couldn't keep going on like this. Today was not the day for the nuts and bolts of the $$ convo. So I just validated, said "you sound worried" and he said "yes" and I think he felt heard. He was really happy I was there, told me so. In our M before the crisis, H always wanted me to come down to the shop, to see what he was doing and spend time with him there. I am so glad that I did that today. H gave me a kiss on the lips twice when I left. These are not romantic kisses, mind you. But a kiss on the lips from H is a sign of comfort and safety with me. When he avoids my mouth and kisses the cheek, well, I just know where we are - it's one of the barometers. And a side-ways hug with no kiss at all is the worst sign. I guess if we ever get to a pressed up against the wall kiss, or a tongue again, I will be on cloud nine.

OK. I will try not to be too excited. But here's what happened today:

H committed to come to D's B-day party
H was warm, happy to see me.
Invited me to lunch
Took me to see friends
Shared his work
Kept his $$ agreement and gave me $$
Shared worries
Invited me on a trip
Included us as a unit with family
Kissed me on the lips twice
I was warm but collected
I validated, affirmed, and appreciated
I touched H a few times, but did not over do it

And just so you know, I am aware that today is 1 year since H met OW. I shouldn't know that and shouldn't care, I know. But I do happen to know, from a long ago snoop on the computer. And since I know, I am even more grateful that H didn't dissappear on me today of all days, but actually validated my existence in his life. I know I should not expect anything. But I just need all of you to know, that it feels awfully good when this happens.

Any advice on how to handle what's coming next is welcome - feel free. The party tomorrow could be a challenge for H. Foster-D25 wrote H a scathing e-mail in March, calling him names, furious about OW, protective of me, and has not seen H or spoken to H since Xmas. This is probably the biggest hurdle that H will face tomorrow. Foster-D25 has gone to C, worked on many of her issues and dissapointments about what has happened and the A and subsequent turmoil in the family, and has been willing to have recent conversations with me about MLC and H now that she is no longer mad at me for standing for the M. I think it will go OK with them. I know that H really loves her, knows how much he hurt her and the family, and I know that H is being really really brave. I have let Foster-D25 know he is coming now, and she is prepared. We had a nice lunch today when she arrived. I also let D's godfather know he was coming. D's GF said it would be awkward with H there. I said, yes, I understand. Then I told D's GF about a book I read that says how important it is to include a WAS in MLC in family gatherings while they are sorting themselves out, if they want to come. It makes the bridge easier to cross when they are ready to come back. D's GF said OK, yes, he understood and could see that. So I think I have helped bridge the most important R's for H re: tomorrow. I suspect H will arrive late, and not stay long. But that's OK. I want him to feel welcome, that's all. Mostly, it is D25's special day. I have done what I can for H, and now I will focus on D25. She deserves it - she's an amazing human being and a most wonderful D.

I will save the $$ questions for another post. I will need some advice about how to manage some of those issues before we have another convo about it. Not putting pressure on H while not taking on more than I can handle myself is tricky. Holding my ground, and not enabling, being firm about boundaries, while also being understanding and supportive, is also tricky. If H is peeking out of the tunnel, I do not want to scare him off. I want him to feel vallidated, understood. I want him to feel my partnership, as an ally.

But one thing at a time. Right now, I have to go marinate chicken in chipotle adobo cilantro for tomorrow. Yum yum.

[PositivelyListening]

Hi everyone,

Well it pays not to get too excited, huh? H was a "no show" today for D's party. No call to say he'd changed his mind or wasn't coming, no call to D yesterday or today. When I saw him yesterday, he said he was definitely going to call her yesterday. I am not upset, not even really that surprised, because thankfully I have read enough about MLC and A behavior to know this is par for the course. But it still feels weird, even though I know it is typical behavior. He seemed so normal yesterday. And it is also so easy to speculate what might have happened, and to spend time on that. The most difficult part for me, is managing not to worry. When H and I were "in" our M, H always let me know where he was, and vice versa. I wonder sometimes, when he completely dissappears, if I will get a call from a hospital room that he has hurt himself with one of the big machines. But not likely. Should I ask him about it? Wait for him to bring it up? Ignore it? Interestingly, none of those things are really running me tonight. H is doing his thing. I am happy with my life, whether H is here or not. If he wants back in, the door is open right now. But I will not spend time chasing him down, in thoughts or actions. Affirmations: I release, I let go. I surrender, I trust. I am patient. My life is divinely guided, so all is well.

We had a wonderful day anyway (of course), and D had a great party. Croquet on the lawn, and I outdid myself with the food. Really a fun day, and D has great friends. I am so blessed that my 25 Year Old D would prefer to spend her B-day here with me, than somewhere else. And I love her friends. What a blessing that is.

We are off to the local festivities now in town. Free entertainment until midnight. Fun. Tomorrow, all the "kids" come back, hopefully to eat some leftovers :-) as me alone in the house will not manage to eat those.

Thanks for being there, y'all. More later.

[soonergal]

Hi PL,
Just got in from a nice GAL night with H's SIL and saw your post. I am so very happy for you that your H if peaking his out of the tunnel, way to go! I know that you must be on cloud 9.

I would not ask him about the no show today. He knows that he didn't show and that you know, don't put more pressure or guilt on him. This will probably be a 180 for you and that is good. I know what you mean about H used to let you know where he was, as a courtesy, now they are too far in the fog to even think about that.

I love all the positives that have happened to you yesterday, just remember to have zero expectations cos he will waiver back and forth.
{{{Hugs}}}
Soonergal

[PositivelyListening]

Hi soonergal, Thanks for writing to me. I wish I had read your post earlier this morning. I may have done the "wrong" thing (in retrospect, and after considering your post), but I did send H a short text message on his phone this morning. Earlier, I had been re-reading one of my favorite helpful books, "Your Husband's Mid-Life Crisis" by Sally Conway, and she talks about being the space of loving compassion and safety, which called to me once again and was how I was feeling about H this morning. I guess I just want to periodically reassure him that he is accepted and loved just how he is right now. So the text I sent was: "Good morning sweetheart. Are you OK? Luv 2 you on this beautiful morning." After reading your post, though, I realize that even a cheery message could make H feel pursued, guilty or bad, especially the "Are you OK?" part - I realized later that a question like that might even make him angry, although that was certainly not my intention - I just wanted to make sure he was alright. And even if it is not making him angry, it still might be "too much" from me right now. I have not heard from him since we had lunch on Friday, so now for sure won't contact him again until he emerges.

Thanks for checking in on me. I have been reading up on your sitch, and I think I can learn a lot from you, and perhaps vice versa, as I think we have a similar stand, set of circumstances, and sense of what's needed. I was really impressed with the fact that you went "dark" for 1 1/2 months. That seems impossible to me, if there is anything financial or whatever that needs to transpire. I am curious about how you made that work. I definitely see how easy it is to make excuses for contact. And at least initially, H always seems so pleased when I do. However, I have trouble figuring out how to have so little contact as what you described. I have been hesitant to pursue "unwrapping" ourselves further, as I'd rather not move farther away than we already have. Your thoughts on that (details of how you are managing it, especially the financial/business end of things) would be appreciated.

I spent some time in H's office today (in our home). It is "in limbo" just like our M. A few pairs of shoes, a hat, H's books, files, computer, drafting tools, etc. As well as a few things that are not H's (a cabinet with some china, memorabilia & books of mine.) There are lots of photos of us un that room also - family and friends and wedding photos. Before H and I separated, H had wanted to remove the china cabinet and have the "whole" room, which is reasonable of course. However, now that he is gone, I have not done that yet - not sure if I should do anything. I am willing, but I think he would need to want to "retake possession" of the room, and right now he's just jetting in and out of our house as fast as he can. So that room is weird - I could use it as a guest room or a rental if we were going that direction. I'd rather have H come back, of course. So meanwhile it sits, as a symbolic reminder of the flux state of our M. Is this the best approach - just leave it alone until H says something new about what he wants to do?

I did take advantage of D's friends being here to move the new windows that have been sitting out in the yard, into the garage. This is a project that was "mid-stream" when H left, and I am tired of worrying about them getting damaged and also tired of explaining to people who come over, why they are there. I feel protective of H in this regard too - I believe he will get to them at some point, and there is no point in worrying about it right now. He is overwhelmed, and I just feel so sad that I was not sensitive to it sooner. So except for the two sliding glass doors (which were too big to move in) all of the other windows were moved into the garage where they will wait for a different time in our R to get managed. H was the one who asked them to be left out there (so they would be easier for him to install) but that was March, and I have decided that I will hire someone to move them or help him when he is ready. Right now I think the pressure of "things to do" around here is not helpful. There are so many half done projects, and with the winter coming sooner than we like to think, I am worried about leaks when the rains come again, as most of the half way done projects are really problematic that way. I will have to figure out how to get some of these handled without H and without enough cash flow.

Well, it's a beautiful sunny day. Enough for now. I will take a walk, and then get to studying.

[soonergal]

Hey PL!
Thanks for visiting my thread also! I'm by no means an expert at this but feel in my heart that I'm doing the right thing and if anything I say or do can help you, I'm glad. None of us choose to be here but the support we give each other is huge! Yes, I believe that we can help each other too!

I may have done the "wrong" thing (in retrospect, and after considering your post), but I did send H a short text message on his phone this morning. Don't worry about that now. You felt in your heart that you should send the note and that's okay. As long as you don't do things just to make yourself feel better.

Earlier, I had been re-reading one of my favorite helpful books, "Your Husband's Mid-Life Crisis" by Sally Conway, I have read Jim Conway's book 'Men in Mid Life Crisis' and it was right on. I'm sure Sally's is also.

I guess I just want to periodically reassure him that he is accepted and loved just how he is right now. I've been told that H knows he is loved and accepted. But to continue to tell him, is pursuing and could continue to make him feel guilty. And again, the contact was just a way to make me feel better anyway.

So the text I sent was: "Good morning sweetheart. Are you OK? Luv 2 you on this beautiful morning." After reading your post, though, I realize that even a cheery message could make H feel pursued, guilty or bad, especially the "Are you OK?" part - I realized later that a question like that might even make him angry, although that was certainly not my intention - It never is our intention but the MLCer is not thinking straight.

I just wanted to make sure he was alright. Believe me, he is as alright as he can be right now.

And even if it is not making him angry, it still might be "too much" from me right now. Agreed!!

I have not heard from him since we had lunch on Friday, so now for sure won't contact him again until he emerges. he's gone back into the tunnel.Let him be for now. {/color]

that you went "dark" for 1 1/2 months. That seems impossible to me, if there is anything financial or whatever that needs to transpire. I am curious about how you made that work. I definitely see how easy it is to make excuses for contact. And at least initially, H always seems so pleased when I do. However, I have trouble figuring out how to have so little contact as what you described. I have been hesitant to pursue "unwrapping" ourselves further, as I'd rather not move farther away than we already have. Your thoughts on that (details of how you are managing it, especially the financial/business end of things) would be appreciated.

H usually comes by our home during the day when I'm at work to pick up his mail and any bills that are due. If he doesn't make it by by the time one is due, he has asked that I fax it to him. I used to ask myself, 'how can he be too busy to come by our home?' Then it dawned on me, this is withdrawal. Now, I don't worry about it as much but I always make sure that the house is clean and picked up just in case!

I spent some time in H's office today (in our home). It is "in limbo" just like our M. So meanwhile it sits, as a symbolic reminder of the flux state of our M. Is this the best approach - just leave it alone until H says something new about what he wants to do? We too, have an 'office' in our home where H took care of bills and did reports for work. At first, it was very hard for me to go into the room and get on the computer cos it was always H's personal space. It's not so bad now but I still consider it his area. I have not changed anything in our home as H said early in all this 'Don't change anything'. And I haven't. I've added a new picture here and there but over all, nothing major.

I feel protective of H in this regard too - Me too! I know our friends wonder what is going on with us as I still do things with them but w/o H. I just tell them he is working or at a meeting and they are very supportive of us both by not asking too many questions. He is overwhelmed, and I just feel so sad that I was not sensitive to it sooner. He probably is but don't beat yourself up about it. All you can take care of is the here and now. Don't worry what might have been but what will be. Right now I think the pressure of "things to do" around here is not helpful.

---

I wonder why you have not moved over into the Mid Life Crisis forum? There are so many more gifted people there that can be a source of support for you. I urge you to do this. Hang in there and we will get thru this together!
{{{hugs}}}}
Sooner

[Mamabear]

Hi PL,
Just wanted to let you know that I have been keeping up with your sitch. I don't have much advice to give today though as I am feeling pretty down in the dumps.
Mama

[Sweet_Heart]

PL,
I really recomend anyone feeling down in the dumps (like I was) to read The Six Pillars of Self Esteem by Nathaniel Branden. It may not make our spouses come home but the change in my spirit is amazing. I have been awakening my hopes and dreams. Really looking at my life and trying to discover what I want. Where before I though I wanted H back completely, now I am looking at him for real not through those loving and completly forgiving eyes. But seeing the real him. I think for too long we sit and wait for our spouses to decide if they are going to grow up. It is time for us to decide what we want to do with our lives and move forward. Our H's will come with or they will fall behind. Either way we will be fine. Not just PMA but a positively wonderful life!

Keep up the good work! You are being so strong! I like that you are doing your own thing. Try not to get too hung up on DB method you should blend with your own style. You are a strong confident woman! I have seen many of your posts and you are also a smart lady. I hope your H sees what he is missing!