It's always nice to know you are attractive to someone else esp. when you have been rejected by H, but it is not a good idea to get involved in another relationship while still in a mess/quandry/holding pattern with this one. This is the advice my C gave me ages ago and which I found out the hard way is very true. She said you need to be emotionally straight and distant from one before you get into another or it merely becomes a rebound relationship and it doesn't work out. Or you hurt someone else. Or you get hurt again. Although if it was a one night stand of hot sex...hmm...
Anyway, I guess this is why all the advice also says not to snoop (I know you weren't, btw) because you find out things that hurt you and haunt you. Or to never ask a question you aren't prepared to hear the answer to. Perhaps you have reached your limit on being cheery and comforting and upbeat with H. You can only be hurt so many times even from someone you love who isn't doing it to be mean, before you finally say enough and move away. Not necessarily move ON, move AWAY. Perhaps it is time to distance yourself.
I know you are afraid if you do that he will forget or move closer to OW emotionally or decide he doesn't want to come back, etc. but he is going to do what he's going to do regardless. He is already aware of all of it. He knows what you want and where you are. One of your real drawbacks, I think, is H and OW live far apart so it keeps the "excitement" alive for a much longer period than it would otherwise. I'm afraid, PL, that if you really want your H back your only recourse is to wait it out. It could be a long time, too. But I don't see him returning until he has run the course with that tramp. So you need to decide if you want to keep seeing him and dealing with the pain or if you want to distance yourself and deal with the pain. It's a no win situation, unfortunately. But here's the thing while you are deciding. Do what YOU need to do. Not what you think you should do. Or what you think would "work" best. Or what HE might do. But what YOU need and want. The lesser of two evils, so to speak. What will make you feel the least amount of anxiety and pain.
I would NOT call OW. You're right; it will backfire. In the first place, she knows he's married. Do you think she cares how you feel? Forget that. People are very selfish when it comes to affairs of the heart. She will tell H and he will be angry at YOU and will "sympathize" with Ms. Homewrecker and this will push the 2 of you further apart.
And let him tell his parents in his own time. He will appreciate that you did that, sooner or later, when he thinks about it. I agree with you that they should know. But he won't see it that way if you tell them and it will push him further away. Doesn't all this suck big time?!
Of course these are just my opinions and it doesn't mean I am right or you should do everything I say! It just comes from my own experience and seeing it with others. My story is not here because I knew nothing about this board, unfortunately, during my time in hell. I only found this after all was said and done and we were back together.
Hi Mama, You really boosted my mood today. Just the idea of "strutting" anywhere really made me laugh, considering how I have been the past few days. And it has been PMS, at least in part - I'm not sure how life can be so challenging as to give me a unexpected and ridiculously short 18 day cycle, but oh well! Anyway, I am a lot less weepy this afternoon than I was yesterday and this morning, so that is good. I managed to get a few things accomplished today to take care of myself. I ordered caller ID on the home phone so I could tell if it is H calling and decide if I want to talk to him or not when that happens. I have been thinking that would help me set boundaries, and I am already really happy I did that. I also made an appointment with my doctor for a physical, as I want to make sure that everything is really OK since it has been a very stressful year. I think I am in better shape than ever physically. But the stress does take it's toll, so I will get that next month and I am glad. I also ordered the birthday cakes for my D25 (today is her birthday!!). I am so proud to be her mama. We had a little breakdown in communication yesterday too, and that had me sad also. Today we are better. This weekend is her party and a bunch of her friends are coming. I was trying not to stress but I did not have enough information to plan, and I was feeling quite overwhelmed at the idea of a large crowd coming, with no H to BBQ, clear the patios and help as he always did. But it will be fine, and D and I are back in communication, helpers are in place, and it will be good for me to be around all that youthful fun and loving energy.
I was sad today thinking it is likely that H forgot D's birthday. I am always the planner. Of course maybe he didn't forget. But it feels like the whole family has fallen off his radar, not just me. D has already stated she believes H has abandoned his S12 in Germany so of course she will be abandoned by him too if he can do that to "his own son". I think both D and foster D have had no decent father figures, and the sitch with H right now has been a significant blow to both of them in terms of men and trust. They were to the point just this past Christmas of calling him "papa" and now they are saying the relationship with him is unimportant unless I work it out. So they have pulled WAY back. They are clear they will have nothing to do with him if the M does not remain for H & I. And I guess that just has to be OK. They do count on me, and we are close and have always been healthy together, and I love them alot.
Today, H's US passport and Certificate of Naturalization arrived. It is official, H is now a US citizen. Normally, this is the kind of "important" mail arriving that I call him about. However, I'm not going to. It will be here when he comes around again, or perhaps I will text him so we don't have to chat. Right now, I am still regaining my balance. I do not need or want to hear his voice. Besides I am present to the fact that in two days it will be 1 year since H began his cheating lying spree with OW, and I am not going to step near that, unless of course H contacts me for something in which case I will of course be kind and civil.
Trust issues are up really big for me today. I know none of my suspicions have any validity. But I hate the thought (or the thought others might have) that H stayed married to me for the citizenship. It's not true. He could have left me long before, and still had it - only M of 3 years is required. But is is hard to see the big all capitals "MARRIED" on his certificate and to see the unhappy somewhat lost deer-in-the-headlights photos (so unlike how H looked 2 years ago). He looks like a criminal, kinda scary. Not my H. Handsome, but hard, steel eyes. I wonder that H can not see the change that is so obvious to me and others. I do think this is reverting back to another time. I think H was truly happy with me for a good 5 years. And now he is "back" to a familiar place he knows that I don't. That is probably the thing that worries me the most. I worry that I don't really know who he is. Will he be so comfortable because it is familiar, that he will never come back? Was it all a happy illusion?
I discovered that H was looking at our wedding photos on our anniversary before we left on our little trip together (on his computer). It seems odd that he reminisces sometimes, then is so adamant about going forward with his pursuit of OW at other times. When he is romantic and nostalgic, that H I love.
Mama, you inspired me today. I read your sitch, and always think you have the patience of a saint. I do not know if I could live with H and DB while he was pursuing an active A, but I don't think so. I am having enough trouble as it is. I think the saving grace in your sitch is your children, though. I often think having kids helps bring families together. In my opinion, it is hard to be grumpy or preoccupied around kids, because they are so much fun and so present!!! Anyway, my H will have to decide I am enough to bank on since my kids are grown and pretty detached now, as I mentioned. Even though he used to say he loved them very much. H seems so far away from me and all of us. What a huge gap that seems to be. And me such an idealistic romantic. I have more praying to do.
Thanks for hanging with me mama. You helped me alot today. You are right. Why give up? It's not like it would help. Distancing a bit might help. But I remember now - NEVER, EVER, EVER GIVE UP. No matter how dark it gets, no matter how bad it looks. I can do this. Ha!
PositivelyListening ************************************** When one door of happiness closes, another one opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us. - Helen Keller
It was really good to hear from you today. You are a strong woman. It is amazing to me that you managed to take a stand for your marriage all on your own, without these boards and support. For such a long time. And it is an inspiration to me that it worked out for you. I keep thinking if it worked out for others, if it worked out for you, I have a really good chance. Why not me? I really am a good person and a good catch - a good wife, a good mom, with a lovely home, a compassionate and loving heart, a quick mind, a ready laugh - all those things.
I think H is a real wild card though. He has a lot to overcome right now. I just need to believe in him and pray all the more. Someday, OW is going to stumble and show her true self for all to see. Then a door might open a crack. I know one thing for sure - H will not be able to say bad things about me, unless he stays in the fog of the A and lies. I will not give him evidence to hate me. Thank you for your coaching on these things today. It is helpful to me. I usually like everything out in the open. I would like everyone in my world to have all of the accurate information, always. This time, however, H needs to see that I will respect him, and respect his need for privacy, even when I disagree with his choices and behavior. This is hard for me - I am a teacher, counselor, advisor to many. My values matter to me a great deal. Honesty and integrity are big big important foundational issues. But I will not go down that hole. H must be a man and step back into his personal power or this won't work for either of us anyway. I can't tell on him to his parents, you and MamaBear are both right. I am just going to have to keep the proper distance to protect my sanity, and keep going about my business.
You said:
Quote: You can only be hurt so many times even from someone you love who isn't doing it to be mean, before you finally say enough and move away. Not necessarily move ON, move AWAY. Perhaps it is time to distance yourself.
This was very important and interesting to me. When I am hurt by something H says or does, I often feel he is "doing it to me on purpose", trying to hurt me. I told this to H once (long ago, before any of this) and H was really hurt by that. He reassured me that he would never do anything intentionally to hurt me. Yet, his choices here, to have this A, to pursue the OW, feel like a direct assault on me, my family, and everything that I hold dear. It is the most difficult thing I have ever worked on, to hold H in the space of love and compassion, when I feel so personally attacked. You seem so sure that it is not intentional, and I have read that elsewhere also. Yet the only way I can accept that is to think of H as mentally ill (like MLC) - deranged. I believe that I could never do what he is doing without pre-thinking about the consequences and ramifications my actions would have on others, unless I was out of my mind. Long ago, I told H that when you are committed to someone, if you "think" you might want to have an A or even a kiss, you talk about it together first. You pick up the phone, with the OP standing there naked if you have to. But you don't ignore your integrity and then follow it by more lies. THAT seems intentional, in place to protect the cheater and the A, and to hurt everyone who is being lied to, especially the betrayed spouse. How do you make that leap to understanding that the cheater is not intentionally doing harm? This is a hard one for me to grasp - a fleeting understanding at best. The rest of the time, I am sure what H is doing is hurtful and wrong, and he knows it, but chooses to do it anyway, to hell with who gets hurt. In fact there have been several incidents with H when it has felt very much like he wanted to throw the A and OW in my face, to get back at me, punish me. He seemed so angry (covertly) at those times. He would always say he wasn't angry. But the feeling was powerful in the space. So, the hurts I have experienced at H's hands have often felt intentional. Tell me a litle more about how you got to the place of knowing that they are not intending to be mean.
Yes, distancing. That delicate balance between some (hopefully beneficial) contact and none. Right now for me, less is good. Each day that goes by without contact, I am feeling better. I never in a million years, not EVER, did I think I would say that about my H. I remember how I would look forward to seeing H everyday. How I would miss him when he was away. Now the only thing that would bring that feeling up for me again, is if he showed that he was missing me substantially. That's the only thing that might provide a cautious inroad right now. Because the H I truly miss is not the one I have been seeing. I pray one day soon, he will show up again and want to come home.
Thank you lucyhelen, for your attention to me and my situation. I feel in my heart you are helping us. I am grateful.
PositivelyListening ************************************** When one door of happiness closes, another one opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us. - Helen Keller
OK, you are a WONDERFUL catch. You are one of the sweetest people on these boards, and I cherish your advice and insight, ALWAYS.
Here's where I see you getting tripped up, as we all are. If your H is in MLC (which I think ALL WAS's have some sort of "on another planet" element), then he is NOT the same H you knew. You cannot hold him to those standards now. I do the same thing. I take things personally and get SO hurt, then think, this is NOT my H as he was. Until I see that person, and he says he was different, then I cannot be hurt. They are so ludicrosu...they lie even to themselves. My H contests that we had some "agreement" that dating during the demise of our M was OK (no such conversation).....but feels HORRIBLY guilty about things, b/c he KNOWS it's wrong.
They are at a battle with themselves...trust me, it doesn't seem so, but they are. There is a painful war going on within him, your analysis of right and wrong aren't even needed. It's taking care of itself.
You just sit back and trust that if this is SO out of character, the "old yet improved H will come back" and you just have to be patient. But, don't expect him to act like your H now, or a good one. It's just gonna drive you crazy.
Yes, you are 100% correct - this is exactly what I am doing. It looks like my H, it sounds like my H, but I'll be darned if the behavior and choices are NOTHING like the H that I knew. So here's where I get tripped up. I am having a hard time believing that MLC is real. I have a clinical psychologist friend that says there is no such thing as MLC - there is "no research that indicates it truly exists" - he says it is an old wive's tale, like "empty nest syndrome" which apparently also does not have basis in research either, according to him. Well a part of me doesn't care about that, because science has never ever been truer than my intuition. And there are lots of things that are not scientifically researched, that are "real" IMHO. But I also have close friends who doubt H, who think that this behavior was predictable. And all day long I have been ruminating on whether my H can ever be a stable person, or whether he just isn't. His past R with his ex-W was drama packed. His mom and dad are 35 years married, but dad is gay and they live this sexless somewhat lonely M because they chose to stay married and are business partners. H has travelled all over the world and lived in lots of countries. Our M was part of his desire to establish roots and a home. But now, with this BIG rebellion MLC and A, and so many doubting him - well frankly it is hard to be the only one taking a stand for my H and my M, when he is not even doing it for himself.
So I worry. Maybe I've been a fool... Maybe H never loved me and just wanted to improve his business situation and get US citizenship. I have been freaking about the money today. H owed me a check on the 1st, and I did not want to remind him. He forgot that, and D's bithhday yesterday also. So you are right, I keep thinking of H as functional in every way as he used to be, and he is not. He used to function highly in the "caring" department. Right now, I feel like he does not care about anyone but himself (and OW) unless he is reminded, and then he feels guilty. And the finances for me will hit a bottom really quick without his participation. He on the other hand, will do better financially in terms of cash flow without me. But for long term success, we both benefit being together. I have the insurance from my job, the equity from my property. We were planning to invest, do things. It all feels so stuck. When H came here when he M me, his business was nothing. We built it up, and now it is flourishing. He doesn't "need" me to help him any more to make it, but all the sacrifices were made earlier. I am worried today, that I will be left feeling used and angry and bitter. But we will both lose if he leaves. Truth is though, if H leaves, financial ramifications or not, it's not what I want.
So, I need more MLC resources. I am thinking I need a new timeline, a new plan so I can calm down. I worry I am doing the wrong things. But what you said, Always, THAT gives me hope:
Quote: They are at a battle with themselves...trust me, it doesn't seem so, but they are. There is a painful war going on within him, your analysis of right and wrong aren't even needed. It's taking care of itself.
Please, just keep telling me that. If H is really somehow working it out, his own pace and time - if H will someday, no matter the outcome of our M, talk to me with some sense of having figured it out, then I can wait for that. Because it is the silence, the huge wall between H and me, that makes me so crazy. I love him. I will not chase him down. Waiting for him to peek out that's all. Patience is the hardest thing for me right now.
PositivelyListening ************************************** When one door of happiness closes, another one opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us. - Helen Keller
Quote: His mom and dad are 35 years married, but dad is gay and they live this sexless somewhat lonely M because they chose to stay married and are business partners. H
Hmm... so you're afraid he may well figure that if his parents can have a "business" marriage, then he can have one as well. What has his attitude towards his parents M been?
The LORD is near to all who call on him, to all who call on him in truth." (Psalm 145:18)
PL, I'm enjoying, no wrong word, I'm appreciating your postings.
I guess my situation is a bit different in that I think my W is actually being the person she was when I met. I'm her 3rd M, and she claims that they both cheated on her and that's the primary reason she D'd them. In some ways I think she's wanted me to as well to have a reason to leave. The thing for me is that we met in a bar, always partied a lot, became best friends, ect. She has always liked attention and even since we've been married will tease and flirt but it never really bothered me till the past 18 months as she's pulled away. I guess the bottom line for me is that she's simply reverted back to character. My hope is that eventually, if we ever do reconcile, is that because I'm still here for her, that she will finally understand a little better what love is and more importantly what and where true happiness comes from.
I agree with Always. It will pass. He is not the man you married and is making decisions and judgements that in are in a total fog.
You are a strong person. If I was in your shoes...I don't think I could do what you are doing. I see a lot of support on this board, but I see strength most of all.
You have been open with your thoughts ex mexican food rest. guy...and that's a good thing. Keep being honest. That's the only ways others here can help.
You said you thought of calling the OW. I did TONS of research on "how to stop an affair"
One theory, which I am trying to stick to, is the no communication from the cheating spouse to the OW. It's working for me so far.
Another theory is to bring it to the light of day. Let the OW know. Let the co-workers know. Let the whole world know. Then the fantasy world is no longer a dirty secret.
I don't know which is the best solution. I am not advocating either one. But I can see your point about calling the OW.
Hang in there. Just like my wife...you are MORE than the H deserves right now.
So nice to hear from you! Regarding H's parents, you said:
Quote: Hmm... so you're afraid he may well figure that if his parents can have a "business" marriage, then he can have one as well. What has his attitude towards his parents M been?
H said to me, when he revealed about the A, that he wanted to have a "business" relationship with me and keep our M on that basis. He said he trusted me in business, and wanted to continue our progress together. I think he was rather shocked that I was not happy with that offer. I have talked to him many times in the past about his parent's R. I asked him why his mom stayed married to his dad, it seems so unfulfilling a life for her. Dad goes off on sailing trips with boys. Mom takes vacations with her family, children and grandchildren. Hardly ever do they go somewhere together (because one "must" always stay behind to run the business. One exception was our wedding, and they had a really good time). They sleep in separate rooms, dad has gay porn and a TV in his room, mom has books and needlework. H's response to my question about why his mom stayed was very serious in tone "My mother stayed because she made a commitment to the marriage. They love each other in their own way. They have a partnership and it works for them." [FYI, my take on it is different. I think his mom does love his dad. But I think a long time ago and still, she would be afraid to leave. She has a lot of fear about a lot of things. His mom and I are VERY different in this way] I would say H is non-judgemental of his parents sitch, but protective - there is a defensive edge. And also very private about it. Not many people know of the true nature of their R. In their small German town, they are just a couple, anniversary parties, family, etc. just like everyone else. I imagine there is plenty of gossip, but if there is, it is all over my head being in another language and all. And frankly, I am not judgemental of their choices - that is their life, and if it is the life they want, that is up to them. They are kind people, especially H's mom. But I do think it has affected my H, and has likely done some damage. I made it clear to H before we were married that I would never want a M where I slept apart from him. (We also have some close friends who have separate bedrooms, due to health and insomnia). They love each other too, but I made it clear early on that I was going for a M with passion and excitement for life, and H seemed completely aligned with that. Still, H seemed surprised when I did not go for the "business only marriage" after the reveal of the A and asked him to move out instead. And he tried to work it in several times (wanted to buy a 2nd house after we were separated, etc. and kept bringing it up) I have made it clear to him that I do not want to take further business steps together unless it is in the context of a "whole" marriage. But I also told him that I am not in a rush if he needs time to sort that out. (Which is an "act as if" because truthfully I would have liked it if he quit OW and wanted to come home a long time ago. But he hasn't). Sometimes I think I would have been able to generate more contact with him if we were partnering more, and I had allowed the business ventures to continue. I am worried about the money part, and my future financially without H. That is very uncomfortable for me. But I have to have a line about what works for me. Hanging around with my H makes me want him, like we were. And seeing him remind me he is "in love with someone else" hurts me. I haven't gotten over that, although I have managed to control it OK most of the time.
So yes, my fear is that H has a concept of marriage that is more "open" than mine. He is kind of a renegade and non-conformist in many arenas. He has a real "I need to be free" streak. I don't know what else to do but give him space, check in every once in a while, and let him (hopefully) come to me. If he really doesn't want a M, he won't come back. Because I am the real deal, and I will love him forever. The ironic and other scary part about this is, H has been in R's mostly in the past where he was pursued. This is true with his ex-W and true with OW. Emotionally needy manipulative women who have reeled him in in a quite obvious manner. Even sexually, he wanted me to initiate more than I did. So I worry that H will end up where ever he is netted. And I know it's not healthy, and I won't go there. I have heard that sometimes the cheaters get their egos filled by being wanted by more than one woman. And H does have some low self-esteem issues that were surfacing heavily during the past year. It is scary for me, thinking that he might fall into that kind of needy, controlling woman pattern once again and choose an unhealthy R over a healthier more stable one. Because he's so familiar with the other.
PositivelyListening ************************************** When one door of happiness closes, another one opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us. - Helen Keller
Thanks for writing to me. You are far away in the world! It is great that you have found us here. Yes, the concerns about the old patterns. And which is the real spouse? The one we married or the one who just showed up (again?).
I have been thinking a lot about my faith, and believing in my H. I want him to make it out of the hole. I must have faith in him, that he will see that our M is worth the discomfort of the growing required. I have seen this in him before. When I met H, I never met anyone more open to growth. And when he backtracked or ran in the past, it was always due to a trust issue. H will need to keep testing and inching towards trusting me and trusting "us" again. And he will have to realize at some point that OW is not trustworthy. And he will have to forgive himself for his failure to be trustworthy to me, which I can forgive and I have already done so. So I must have faith in the healing of the trust. That is what I will pray for tonight. And I will also focus on being a safe and trustworthy space for my H's feelings, so he will bring them here.
I wish you the best in your sitch. You sound like a good and loving man, exercising unconditional love when your spouse does not have it for herself. I am striving for this also. Thanks for visiting me and reading along. I need the suppport. It is amazing how each person, each comment, helps reveal something.
PositivelyListening ************************************** When one door of happiness closes, another one opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us. - Helen Keller
that's all. Patience is the hardest thing for me right now.