Fizz - Look at each of these problems with a "beginner's mind". Forget your preconceived notions of why you can't do X,Y, or Z, or why A, B ,or C won't work. Think outside the box.
As for money - where's the fat in your budget? Keeping track of every penny sent is usually informative. And can the debt be refinanced to a lower rate?
Fizz,
OK I went back and did ALL the reading. I wish I would have done that before I posted last time.
You wanted my opinion you got it.
I think your H is playing you. He wants is both ways. He likes you chasing him and he likes the other woman doing the same. If some course of action does not change in you or him, I think you will still be posting on this board a year from now with the same complaints.
I'm not trying to be brutal or make you feel bad. It's just my thoughts.
Though my affair was brief (8 months) I did enjoy having two women "wanting" me. I was chasing after one (OW) and running from the other (W). It fed my ego. It took me a while to see how wrong and selfish I was being. If it was not for God, I would probably be in the same situation. Now when the OW chases after me...it just makes me ill.
For your own peace and happiness something has to change dramatically IMO ...either in you or your H.
I'm not saying your you are at fault. But you and your H and the OW are in a cylce. I do not see that cycle stopping without some kind of action taking place.
Take it with a grain of salt, but that is my take on your situation.
P.S. I owe you an apology for not reading your whole situation before I posted last time. That was a disservice to you. I am sorry.
Fizz, Here is a post that was written by Hearts Blessing. She is somewhat of a legend in the MLC threads. It is about cycles. I think you will find it helpful. You are definitely in a bad cycle with your H. ST
"This is concerning CYCLES
A "cycle" starts when the same behavior is repeated over and over for a period of time and there is NO end to it-it "circles" in other words. And the person repeating the "cycle" must have help to break free from it.
Something HAS to give when a cycle starts, someone's behavior has to change or a confrontation has to ensue.
For example:
Say a man has OW, but wants his wife too seeing them both because he is too weak to decide what he wants. The wife states her stand on it, and he promises to get rid of OW. But he ignores what she says and lies to her so he can keep right on seeing OW AND his wife, too-"fence-sitting" is a better word for that or "cake-eating".
After giving the man a reasonable period of time-usually a week, the wife then needs to change her behavior toward the man, "cutting him off", "going dark" AFTER telling him ONE MORE TIME where she stands.
In effect, the change of behavior SHOULD break the "cycle".
When it doesn't break, something is wrong-the wife MUST stick to her guns and NOT allow him to see her at all-"cycles" are difficult to break when the wife lacks the strength to enforce her stand. IF he moves on, she has lost nothing, but allowing for human nature, most of the time, the man will go on and dump the OW, coming back to the wife, knowing she means business, and won't allow him to get away with this.
You see, people will do what we allow them to get away with, and when the SAME problem crops up AGAIN and AGAIN, it begins what is called a "cycle" and a change in behavior is called for to break it. And that change MUST be solid, no waffling-self-respect is at usually at stake.
In MLC, there are certain times when this will work, and you must know when those times are.
I've seen several cases here of "cycles" and some them continue on and on, because the LBS lacks the strength to make a stand, afraid of being willing to lose all to possibly regain the MLC'er.
As long as the MLC'er is waffling between the wife and OW, it is a good time to break a cycle.
It might try the patience of the LBS, but in the end, unless the MLC'er goes nuts and chooses OW, it should work.
There are other "cycles" to look at, in the cases of disrespect-controlling and manipulation can be stopped.
It calls, again, for a change in behavior-reacting in a way that the MLC'er does NOT expect, and refusing to take anymore.
My husband used to control me with anger and threats when I confronted him, and he used to say things that would "shut me up". If he didn't want to discuss something he used to say hurtful things to me, so I would withdraw and say nothing else to him. And this cycle was going on while he was in his MLC-I stopped that cycle by changing my behavior and reactions to his hateful statements-the next thing he did was threaten to leave, and I, instead of crying and begging like I did before, just cut him loose, and invited him to leave if that was what HE wanted to do.
He's never repeated that behavior again, and that was the only "cycle" I got stuck in.
The bottom line is, you have to overcome your FEAR, and make a stand against what you know is WRONG, not worrying about what might happen, just knowing your self-respect is at stake, and being strong enough to stand.
If he really wants to leave..etc, he will do what HE wants to do, and there's NOTHING you can do about it. But you cannot become a "doormat" for him to walk on. You must be resolute and strong without becoming soft. And you don't have to put up with wrong behavior. It CAN be stopped, point-blank.
This is a Q and A from LSL, asking me to further define what must be done during a cycle
This does MORE explaining and helps to further your understanding.
HOW DOES ONE DETERMINE THE CHANGE NEEDED. IS IT BOUNDARIES, 180'S, SOME COMBINATION? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you commit to a course of action-the "consequences" of that action no longer matter-you are letting go of that. Making your stand is NOT considered 'punishment'-that is up to the Lord to "punish" people by causing them to reap what they sow.
You are simply deciding what you will and won't tolerate and taking steps to CHANGE that situation, through actions and/or confrontation. It is the equivalent of saying "NO MORE" and not backing down.
The actions you take depend upon the situation faced-I outlined two different examples of making such a stand in my last post.
Most situations are NOT so different, LSL, and the "bully's" reactions are usually NOT that different, unless he/she is totally twisted, and/or at the "point of no return"-or is determined to leave forever, anyway. OR, even, they IGNORE the LBS actions, and just continue their unacceptable behavior-in THAT case-you either ACCEPT it or NOT-your choice all the way around. There are some "die-hards" that will NEVER see what they are doing to hurt themselves and others-and of course that is covered in psychiatric disorders. They are beyond help-and you cannot help them, and MUST just let them go totally-getting on with your life.
What behavior you are standing up against determines the changes that have to be made in the LBS-this is "solution-based" thinking-it DEPENDS on what you are facing, LSL as to what you need to do. IF one thing doesn't work, try something else-each person is different and it might require a combination of things to bring about a desired result. No one can decide that for you-it is always YOUR choice-and you know your husband better than anyone else.
IS THE ONLY "SOLID" OPTION IN A OW-CYCLE AN ULTIMATUM - or ARE THERE OTHER OPTIONS LBS HAS TO PREVENT WAS/'caker' "FROM GETTING AWAY WITH"(NO CONSEQUENCES) THIS BEHAVIOR ? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are several possibilities the LBS can use, and the only three options are:
1. Ultimatum, which in the case of MLC won't work unless the MLC'er is READY to give OW up, and is attempting to CAKE-EAT.
2. Going dark without saying a word, but the WAS won't "get it" so a confrontation IN THE CASE OF OW is usually necessary BEFORE going dark.
3. Just tolerating the situation, and going on endlessly for years, allowing the cycle to continue-had to throw that one in-it is the LEAST desireable option, but one that is usually chosen because fear dictates the actions of the LBS.
I, quite honestly, don't see any OTHER ways of handling this type of situation WITHOUT a confrontation of some sort-the LBS has to come to the point of deciding what he/she will and won't tolerate and take action-and that course of action is UP to the individual who is on the receiving end of this.
WILL ONE KNOW WHEN THIS WILL WORK - IS THERE ANY INDICATION AS WHAT THOSE TIMES ARE? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I had my insight and someone to guide me in this, LSL-but your own intuition is your BEST indicator--use the tools you have been given through DB, self-help books, the Bible, and this messageboard to help you-that is what they are here for-for one thing.
On the other hand, watching the situation is one of the BEST indicators as to when the BEST time is to confront-I can't exactly explain it, but YOU WILL KNOW-it goes back to your intuition-and the "cycle" that develops will become so clear even the person involved within CAN'T miss it unless they are totally BLIND, or choose to be. Depends on, again, what each of us are willing to live with and tolerate. If you're not satisfied with a situation, CHANGE it, taking the steps necessary to do so.
Again, when you take a course of action, you LET GO of what the consequences may be(spouse goes on and leaves, etc). But understand we are human and there is so much even WE will tolerate before something must be done, and each of our tolerance levels are different-what is totally UNacceptable to one person may be totally Acceptable to another-each one of us are different-those differences must be taken into account.
In short, we each KNOW, deep within our hearts what we can and can't live with.
DOES THE "STAND" MEAN ASKING SPOUSE TO LEAVE? OR DOES IT MEAN DIFFERENT THINGS (ex.BOUNDARIES) FOR DIFFERENT CYCLES? DOES IT MEAN WAS LEAVE IN CASE OF OW? DOES THE STAND DEMAND A CHOICE ON THE WAS, WHERE THE LBS HAS TO FOLLOW THROUGH WITH CHOICE RESULTS/CONSEQUENCES? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is totally up to the LBS-different circumstances call for different courses of actions-again it DEPENDS on the circumstances-and when you KNOW the options you have, you can make a choice that "fits" within those options.
In MLC, there DOES come a time when you will have to "be willing to lose all to possibly regain him" and the circumstances ARE differing.
In my own case-and I know I've told this story before-I was attempting to hold my husband accountable for OW, plus his behavior, and I triggered a tantrum in him--now, in the past he'd always controlled me through anger and threats, and that had always worked then, but not at the time I confronted him.
He threatened to leave me because in his words "You won't shut up", and I released him-telling him if that was what he wanted to do, do it, but don't threaten me with it again-and I never raised my voice-I had learned TWO lessons that day-the first was to stay quiet in conflict, and the second was the "being willing to lose all to possibly regain him" lesson.
He threatened me with other stuff(no physical violence, though--that line had been drawn YEARS before) and I just kept putting the decision to leave or not to leave BACK on his shoulders and was calm about it.
He never left.
He has NOT repeated this particular behavior again-and at one time it WAS a bone of contention between us-I had ALLOWED it for many years, but no more-I had made my stand, and he responded to that stand by STOPPING the behavior-I didn't give him the SAME reaction I had given over the years-I had changed the tapes.
Now, remember the decision I made at that time was NOT made ahead of time-it was made in a split-second, because the tantrum and threats were made UNEXPECTEDLY-I did NOT know what he was going to do until he did it.
But, you see, I was guided into holding him accountable, and I was "pushed" until I did it-the Lord would NOT allow me to back down, as the "old" me would have done before-I could NOT revert back to "old" behaviors-it was placed within me to confront and I did-but you see, WHEN I did I "let go" of the consequences of my actions-leaving them to the LORD to work out.
If he HAD left, there was NOTHING I could have done to stop it-and I knew that, too, even BEFORE I confronted-but I had to be READY to accept whatever the result would be-it was up to my husband whether he stayed or went, not me.
All these things passed through my mind that day, but I settled myself afterwards, knowing I had done all I could, but I wasn't willing to let him manipulate me anymore-I wasn't a child, and neither was he-and he DID respect me a great deal more after that.
Now, concerning making him leave in the case of OW DOES have its advantages-it causes him to "miss" the LBS, and OW has the burden of meeting ALL his needs, not just some of them-and she doesn't know him the way the LBS does, and so he becomes dissatisfied with the affair and it burns out--UNLESS he is determined to start over anyway-again that is BEYOND the LBS' control--everything comes down to being willing to LET GO of controlling ANYTHING concerning another person-because really, we don't OWN anyone except OURSELVES, and all things happen for a reason.
The STAND CAN mean going through with what the LBS has said he/she will do if certain conditions are not met, and that is NOT control-the WAS has broken their marriage vows, and the LBS has the right to demand a choice, but in MLC, that can happen only when the MLC'er is CAKE-EATING.
Do NOT make your stand UNTIL you are READY to live with the consequences of what you are saying you will do-that is WHY I say you CANNOT waffle-you must stand strong and be willing to go through it.
Otherwise, the cycle will definitely repeat itself, and the time will be lengthened to ensure you learn the lesson and "get it" right.
One more thing, even if the WAS REFUSES to leave-you can STILL make your stand and go at least "dim" on them-refusing to have much of ANYTHING to do with him/her-and sticking to it, getting on with your life.
Though I talked my husband out of leaving when I found out about OW, and he treated me terribly, I ended up going totally "dim" on him, and that sent him the message that he could LOSE me-I was calm, quiet, but firm that this had better stop-but I never threatened him or said anything that indicated I was going to leave-I just had very little to do with him for awhile-and he got the message, loud and clear.
But, deep down, I hurt so badly that it was unreal-but that did pass, in time, and I felt I was doing the right thing, and knew it for sure when I observed him coming back toward me later on.
Whew, Lord, I hope I have explained this in a way that will help you ALL to understand how this works--I KNOW how it works having been there before, but explaining it in a way that is understood is hard, but I think I got it right."
At the bar the Judge will not look us over for medals, degrees, or diplomas, but for scars. - Hugh B. Brown
I don't know if it applies, but that is what I did. I took a stand.
I told W, after she had told me she wanted to work on M, that there could be no contact with OM. The thing I did badly was that I came across as demanding. She had stated that as a problem of mine in the past.
Part of her connection with OM involves going out with her friends every week to do karaoke, which is where she met OM. She felt like I was saying she couldn't be around her friends. I tried to reason that there were other places we could go, but she just made up excuses as to why that wasn't a workable solution. The result is she moved out.
Looking back I would have addressed it differently. I would have told her that I won't tolerate her seeing OM and at the same time I feel she is free to do as she pleases. I would have made it clear that it was her decision to make.
I feel as good as possible about where I'm at right now. I made the right decision for me. I'm living my life and enjoying myself and it appears W is doing the same. I'm not angry, mad or resentful at W and have no problem being a friend to her. I realize that I'll survive and be happy if she is with me or not. I know that this can't go on forever, that something will change. It just gets, at times, very tireing doing the limbo shuffel.
"Our life is what our thoughts make it."
Marcus Aurelius
I hope that you're taking some time away from H's madness to center yourself and S. Remember, this is HIS mess and sucking everyone in.
I agree with many here about setting boundaries, and that perhaps this is the "crisis" that will end the CRISIS. Regardless, you and S need it now, the separation, to focus on getting you healthy and happy and focusing on S's health. Right now, H is not a H or father....he's in his own storm, and your job is not to stop the storm, but to take shelter from it while you can.
I don't know what this means for you. You can detach more while living with him, get focused more on your life, or you can ask him to leave. Right now, he has the comfort of "choosing" something that should NOT be a choice in a M. He said a few things that are concerning...that you take care of him, that he loves you, but wants the "friend" in OW, etc. JokerMan is right, I think MLCers and others like having the spouse hanging on...the very people they are "running away" from. I think you need to pull the comfort of this dual life out for him.
As Ellie said, no matter what level of detachment you employ, do it in a cool, self-confident, self-preserving way....not as punishment. Ultimately, it has to come off as "this is good for both of us...you are sorting things out in life, and need space, and I need distance b/c it's so toxic for me and our family." Do it with a smile, no emotions, as a friend. H is just your friend now, one in a VERY bad spot. The best you can do is watch this from afar, in a safe location.
When you detach, you are still friendly, just not being his W. Actions have consequences. As Ellie said, you patient grace was a good tactic before, but now it needs to be different, mostly for your own health/sanity. When you detach, grow strong, for yourself. Look how strong and powerful you have been....without worrying about H and all his games, think how much more so you can be.
Get healthy, fit and strong. It will make you feel good, mind and body. Get financially saavy....it will make you feel empowered. Focus on work and S's health, it will make you feel valuable and needed. Get out with friends at least once a week....it will make you feel fun and loved.
You are all of these things, now start living it.
H's life is spinning now....that doesn't mean that yours needs to be sacraficed in the MLC crisis...take it back. Live it fully.
very strange, I can post here on the 2nd page of my thread, but can't on the last....weird. but anyway, thought I'd update a bit.... I am trying to do things differently, I havent left home because I'm not ready emotionally or financially, and I havent kicked H out for the same reason, but what I'm doing differently is to try to keep my focus on what I need to be doing for my self and for S14. Trying to "act as if" I'm detached from the sitch....working very hard to stay calm...most days I'm calm....but, I'm really focusing on getting the house more in order, finances in order, and weight loss and trying to get back into working out again.
I'm seeing some progress in just a couple of weeks, have our bedroom almost ready to repaint....ready to rearrange furniture. Am getting papers together, plan to do some of the finance stuff this week, and am signed up for a class.
I am trying to be more "backed off" from H....I think I am doing it....most nights this past week I did something different while he watched tv....I dont' know if that's good or not, since QT always seemed to be important to him....but we'll see. I do need to do stuff besides watch tv if I'm going to get done what I need to do....be nice if he'd join the cause, but....
He is sometimes comforting and warm. other times, I don't know, a million miles away. He still has gone to do his "paperwork" on Saturday mornings again....now, to 'fess up here, but also it sheds some light on the sitch....I was really ticked off (again) Saturday before this past one....just wondering about stuff, trying to make some sense of it all (useless, I know). H was gone working. I decided to "check it out"...so I snooped, and I went for where I knew the newest stuff would be...his brief case, which again he leaves in our bedroom....so yep, sure enough there in the pocket were new emails to the w---emonster. One from last november which was really hateful...basically telling her to get lost and calling her a whore....then the worm turns again. I found one from 5/3 talking about how they'd need to spend time together to try again, blah blah blah....how the feelings seem to come back when they are focused on good things.....crap. remember that is the time when I was upset because he wouldnt go out/do anything to celebrate our anniversary on 5/5? well gee whiz, I wonder why????? found a long letter from him to her, begging/ pleading that he is the person she fell in love with, he is as honorable as her father was (I swear there is incest in this womans past)...and joy of joys, how he just doesnt have the same feelings for me....that he knows I have those feelings....but he just doesnt. I have not acted on the urge to strangle him....but boy do I have news for him. Sometimes I don't feel a damn thing but disgust for his sorry butt. not one damn thing. Being in the mode of thinking of what I need to be doing to protect myself, I took the emails, and have them stashed with my other "stuff"....gonna have it in good ole black & white if i decide to find a scorched earth attorney. She is back at work after her vacation, interestingly I have not seen hide nor hair of her, I used to see her a couple of times a day. I've not told H I checked out these emails. alluded to it, but he didnt pick up on it....best to let it go, anyway. I suspect he still/is back to calling her in the mornings. try to ignore it....usually I do, last friday am before work I was having a hard time though, didnt say a word, but he noticed I was reserved, quiet, something, and asked me what was wrong. I told him "I just have a hard time with this other stuff"....he said "I'm trying to figure out what you're so fired up about"...told him "I'm not fired up, I just have a hard time with the other stuff"...and he said "well, the other stuff is going to end"....I didnt answer, thinking I've heard it all somewhere before....but he did say "you're right, I can't be happy focusing on other things, it needs to be here." and "she's getting tired of me not going there" (uh, yep, heard that one before too)....so focus, focus, focus....I must do what I need to do for me....money wise, health wise, and gotta get S14 taken care of. Interestingly though, last week I was at D's house, when I left I drove by the cutest little house for sale about 4 blocks from where she lives. I swear, I was overcome with wishing I could just buy that house and go there and start over on my own. just do what I want without worrying about his sorry @ss.
That said, I have been suggesting gently at every opportunity that he get his thyroid checked. He is complaining about all kinds of aches and pains again, joints and muscles and being depressed. When he does, I suggest pleasantly that "gosh, maybe you should think about getting that checked out"...and he's beginning to say "maybe I should"...a day or so ago, he even said "I should probably get my colesteral checked too"...so we'll see.
Did I mention I am sick of this? I did have the thought though that I should change my name to "Timex"....you know, "takes a licking and keeps on ticking"...then I had the demented thought that I should start dropping annonymous notes in monsterw---e's mail box: tick tock tick tock
tick tock tick tock
one a day for the rest of her obnoxious days. let her figure it out.
Quote: when I left I drove by the cutest little house for sale about 4 blocks from where she lives. I swear, I was overcome with wishing I could just buy that house and go there and start over on my own. just do what I want without worrying about his sorry @ss.
Well, I know that's not possible right this minute, but not a bad financial goal to set, eh? So right now that you're fired up about getting things together, why not focus on how to get where you want to be - not that it's necessarily without h, but that your life would feel much better if you were in a financial place where you knew you COULD walk out and buy that little house if you wanted to?
Sooo...what would that take? - Have you enlisted H in the financial plan to get out of debt yet? This may be necessary to ensure he isn't blowing money on oW. Paying bills and budgeting together may keep everything too open for him to get away with spending on her.
- Refinancing the debt to a lower interest rate?
- Fixing up the house so that it would sell for more money if you had to sell it?
- Asking for a raise at work?
- Looking for another job that pays better? (Think - if you DID finally get sick of H and OW, wouldn't it be nice to work somewhere else where you didn't have to see them all the time?).
- Looking for part-time business or work to supplement your income?
As for H right now - I hear you on the QT dilemma. Maybe a compromise - keep doing your own thing, but when you ARE with him, practice the "no-multitasking, full attention, sit next to him" approach. And keep the email contact going.
So glad to hear from you again, was worried you might be up for charges on murder!
I agree with Ellie on the QT stuff....yet, if H is in MLC, then I think that you are deep in the background there. So, just do your thing, only if you want to....don't force anything now. Also, your H just seems to me resting comfortably in limbo, of being wanted by 2 women and rejected by none. He is couching his low self-worth in this. I think you pulling back, gradually, sets your boundaries (that you will not be a loving W while he "makes up his mind"), draws the safety net from H and perhaps out of the tunnel to shed light on reality, and also keeps you sane. It lets him know the consequences of his actions. Also, I think alone time for the MLCer is good....let's them stew in their life, think and reflect....you're not always occupying his mind, letting him sit in limbo/denial.
On that note, can you at least get away for a few days here and there, maybe with your D? Weekends? So what if it's time with Monster, or whatever. That ride needs to go full throttle before it blows up for good.
Glad you're focused on goals again, and pulling back...WAAAAY back.
