I have come to realize over the past 5-6 months of my sitch that my love for my wife is deeper than even I ever realized. My other realization, a healthy one, is that I don't need her and/or her love. I want both, very much, but I do not need either. THAT realization took me 5 months of soul searching and self help to achieve. And, with the realization, I am even more committed now than I was in the beginning to DB/DR my M to health and happiness.
I want to build a new, strong, loving, respectful partnership. I continue to work on me and pray for God's guidance, healing, mercy and grace. I'll probably be on again later todoay. I miss my children so much today. Won't see them again until Monday night.
Quote: How's they hanging HH? (lol) See, I am giving you credit for having something to "hang" right off the bat
They are hanging fine, TY for asking. What I need to be careful of, like you have said, is that I don't go overboard in asserting myself (she's not used to me asserting myself at all) and that I don't beat the shi*t out of myself emotionally for backsliding.
more journaling- 08/07/06
Today was an interesting day, especially after yesterday. Yesterday, I called my W at 6:15 and left a msg to see if I she was going to church and taking our children with her (her weekend). She called me back to say she wasn't planning on going and I could take our D5 to church with me.
I arrived at the house and my D was still asleep and when I woke her she said she did not want to go to church. My W came in about that time and suggested that I not go to church and take the family to breakfast. I agreed. I don't want to hear about that mistake, I wanted to be with my family and took the opportunity to do so.
We went to breakfast and then I went downtown for work for awhile while they all took naps. When I came back, we went shopping for my son's 1st Bday. While driving to the stores, my W starts texting on her phone. I ask her to stop texting while I am in her presence. The reason for asking her not to text in my presence is b/c she has had text conversations with OM in my presence. Sad thing is, she doesn't see it as rude or that there is anything wrong with her beahvior. She continues on texting and I turn the car around to head back to her house. She starts getting pissed at me for "controlling" her. She insists she was texting her sister. I tell her that she know exactly why I have an issue with her texting in my presence; exactly. I also told her it's extremely rude; same as carrying on a conversation with one person when you are in the company of another person. Again, she doesn't share my point of view. Perhaps I am wrong. What do you think?
We end up going shopping, but she doesn't ever actually see her behavior or own up to it's negative impact on others, particularly me. This is the one aspect of my W that makes me doubt our ability to restore and reconcile our M.
I am adamant about not being willing to take my old M back. I won't go back into our M as the same person and I won't take her back as the same person either. Any stagnation is more ingredients for recreating the failed portions of our M.
We end up going back to her house and she invites me to stay for dinner. I do. It's a nice time. Unfortunately, the nice times only confuse me and our D5 as to why my W is so fixed in her present mindset. My D is incredibly sad and confused and my W doesn't seem to notice even a little bit.
Today, I walked into work and walked right past her several times. After about 10 minutes, I looked up and she was looking at me. I smiled and said hello and went on about my business. My work day was busy but productive.
Tonight, my W tells me that she wants to run something by me. I tell her that I am listening. She tells me that her mother wants her to come back and work for the business. She tells me a bunch of stuff and also tells me that she is afraid of coming back to work for her mother because it has already failed miserably twice.
W wants to know my thoughts on the subject and what I will do if she does come back to work more than she does now. I tell her it is a lousy idea and will most likely fail because she and her mother are the same people with she same dynamics. I tell her that their mother-daughter relationship is much more important than the proposed business relationship they were considering rekindling.
I also tell her that if she takes on a larger role with the company, that I will most likely quit shortly because working together was disastrous for our M and I can see that clearly now looking back. We had to hang up right then and I think she called her mother to tell her what I said because when we resumed the convo, she was telling me how she wouldn't manage over anyone (including me).
I tell her that she isn't managing now and is always trying to manage me, the same way she did before at home and at work. I told her that behavior is in her nature with regard to me. She inisists that she has changed. I don't want to argue the point with her (I don't see ANY change in her, only amplification of her old behavior/personality. I only say, OK, I will take you at your word that you have changed.
My fear is that she will come in and try to manage me without being my boss. I talked to her about some of the "stuff" she has been doing lately which really negatively impact my work flow and the only thing she has to say about that is, "Well, that's how I work." My point exactly. She says she's changed and I don't see the changes in her behavior. I see her doing the same "stuff" she did before when we worked together.
The other thing I see happening is that I will continue to be treated like a mushroom by MIL and W there. I will be sprinkled with BS and kept in the dark on most issues. Sad, but I know that if I left that business right now it would be in a world of hurt. Too bad they don't treat me like I am a person/worker of value.
Well, if my MIL and W decide to go thru with their thoughts, I will begin looking for a new job in earnest again. I've done it before and I'll do it again. I wish my W would only acknowledge that she and I both contributed pretty equally to the deterioration of our M over time. No, she didn't have an affair, I own that, but we both contributed to the rocky terrain that helped facilitate my F-ed up journey to stupidville.
My saving grace is that I can see very clearly what my sh*t was that contributed to the deterioration of our M. She still doesn't see her part and I am not sure she ever will. She has maintained that I am 99% of the problem in our M and she is MAYBE 1%!! Maybe.
And so I work on me. Lots of clay to work with to build a better me.
Everyday, I pray for the strength to back away lovingly from my W. Often my interactions with her are painful b/c her attitude is my constant reminder that we are not on the road to recovery as a married couple. And yes, I know that some hurts/damage are beyond my healing abilities and need to be turned over to God. So I lay my M, myself, my W, and my family at the foot of the cross to be saved by His blood.
Amy's words for me to STOP talking hit me hard tonight like a freight train running over me. I was talking too much again tonight, and as usual fully convinced I am right, and I caused hurt, irritaation and damage tonight that I did not need to cause. I have decided to follow the old saying, "If you don't have anything nice to say...." My new litmus test for everything is to ask myself 3 questions befor opening my mouth is:
Quote: 1. Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?
Now, if what I have to say can't pass muster on ALL 3 questions, I will keep my thoughts to myself.
Quote: What I need to be careful of, like you have said, is that I don't go overboard in asserting myself (she's not used to me asserting myself at all) and that I don't beat the shi*t out of myself emotionally for backsliding.
Yes, there is a balance somewhere in all that. HOWEVER you know for a fact that as you DO assert yourself you DO get noticed by her and it DOES make you seem more attractive to her. That is a fact.
Quote: While driving to the stores, my W starts texting on her phone. I ask her to stop texting while I am in her presence. ...etc... Again, she doesn't share my point of view. Perhaps I am wrong. What do you think?
You are dead on correct. Just in a general sense Cell Phones and Text messaging have made us into a society of rude people. An article o forbes.com says:
"A quick Web search has some common ones, such as speaking loudly in a public area, responding to messages or e-mail while in a conversation or a meeting with someone else, even having an extended conversation on the phone in the middle of a conversation or a meeting. There are plenty of sites devoted to proper cell phone etiquette, which outline basic tips, like asking permission before photographing strangers with a mobile-phone camera, not shouting and not answering the phone when sitting in a restaurant with a group of people. Other sites point out e-mail and messaging etiquette."
So you can certainly feel justified in your comments to her.
With my W I came home two different times and she was on the cell phone talking to OM. The second time I made her end the conversation then told her that I did NOT want her to bring her adultery into the common area of the house or around the children or me.
Scared the hell out of her because I MEANT it. I didn't DEBATE it with her. I said this is the way it is. I won't have it. At the time we were 'getting divorced' like you are so debating what I expect her to do in my presence wasn't going to happen.
She could respect my boundaries or get out, like you were going to take her home if she didn't stop.
End the debates. It's YOUR life now. There is nothing wrong with setting rules and boundaries and enforcing them.
Quote: I am adamant about not being willing to take my old M back. I won't go back into our M as the same person and I won't take her back as the same person either. Any stagnation is more ingredients for recreating the failed portions of our M.
Yep. Good for you. You really can't 'go back' you can only 'go forward'.
Quote: We end up going back to her house and she invites me to stay for dinner. I do. It's a nice time. Unfortunately, the nice times only confuse me and our D5 as to why my W is so fixed in her present mindset. My D is incredibly sad and confused and my W doesn't seem to notice even a little bit.
I wouldn't have stayed for dinner. You put yourself in HER environment so she could feel like she had control of you, even a little. You need to avoid that while she is in the midst of an affair. Remember this: She is DISRESPECTING you and your children by having an affair. YOU are showing her respect when you stay for dinner. Has she earned that respect?
Quote: Today, I walked into work and walked right past her several times. After about 10 minutes, I looked up and she was looking at me. I smiled and said hello and went on about my business. My work day was busy but productive.
Just 'Smile and wave, smile and wave'. Don't put anything that remotely looks like 'feelings' into it. After doing that for a week with my W she started to get really uncomfortable knowing I didn't need her at all.
Quote: My fear is that she will come in and try to manage me without being my boss. I talked to her about some of the "stuff" she has been doing lately which really negatively impact my work flow and the only thing she has to say about that is, "Well, that's how I work." My point exactly.
And then you say "That may be true. I am making the point that it is not how I work and because of that we can't work together unless you change how you interact with me." This is not a debate.
Quote: Too bad they don't treat me like I am a person/worker of value.
Question: If you started to say 'no' to doing things all the time because you're busy / overextended what would they do? Perhaps they don't treat you with value because you do too much to fix things all the time and they simply do not SEE what you are doing? All the little things in the background. I've done that in the past - had my hands in every place in the company and nobody really saw what I was doing for them until I STOPPED and only did what I was required to do.
Quote: My saving grace is that I can see very clearly what my sh*t was that contributed to the deterioration of our M. She still doesn't see her part and I am not sure she ever will. She has maintained that I am 99% of the problem in our M and she is MAYBE 1%!! Maybe.
That will be the turning point, when she does see the light.
Keep your distance, and hold your ground. You are way ahead of her in this journey.
Amy, rather than asking me to read your mind, I would appreciate it if you would please bless me with your perspective on my actions/words that you deem "messing up." I am clearly at a loss as to how to communicate effectively with my W. Aslo, I seem to often be messing up in working to communicate and be in any kind of R with my W.
Quote: Well you saved your butt there at the end by saying you had realized you talked too much again so I won't rip your head off.
FYI, I am not in the "getting my head ripped off" business. I seem to have the uncanny ability to piss off those I care for quite easily even though it is unintentional.
Quote: I was under the impression you had already seriously decided to find another job....
I am, but my last search fell through and I need to get back into the job search mode. I seem to be addicted to my F-ing sitch and all the headaches/heartaches that come with it.
Quote: I bet that's a terrible place to work for the other employees...never knowing what's going to happen if they get "caught" talking to you too much.
Not sure if that is a dig on me, her, or BOTH of us. They all seem to be doing fine. We keep it civil at work, although I don't have any idea what she says when she has a private audience.
Quote: I'm not going to say whole lot here, HH.
I seem to be boring you lately with my lack of "proper" DB/DRing.
Quote: Read your own words and tell us where else you messed up...
If I had all of the answers for me and my sitch I wouldn't be here. I re-read it and the only thing that becomes more clear every day is my need to back off and give her her D before the divorce. She makes what I need to do more and more clear for me each day with her insensitive, self-centered behavior. Makes me sad, but makes my path clear. Back off in a loving way.
Quote: What I need to be careful of, like you have said, is that I don't go overboard in asserting myself (she's not used to me asserting myself at all) and that I don't beat the shi*t out of myself emotionally for backsliding.
Yes, there is a balance somewhere in all that. HOWEVER you know for a fact that as you DO assert yourself you DO get noticed by her and it DOES make you seem more attractive to her. That is a fact.
I certainly hope so, but more importantly, these changes in me are changes I will keep to better me as a person and my relationships with other, W included.
Quote:
Quote: While driving to the stores, my W starts texting on her phone. I ask her to stop texting while I am in her presence. ...etc... Again, she doesn't share my point of view. Perhaps I am wrong. What do you think?
You are dead on correct. Just in a general sense Cell Phones and Text messaging have made us into a society of rude people. An article o forbes.com says:
"A quick Web search has some common ones, such as speaking loudly in a public area, responding to messages or e-mail while in a conversation or a meeting with someone else, even having an extended conversation on the phone in the middle of a conversation or a meeting. There are plenty of sites devoted to proper cell phone etiquette, which outline basic tips, like asking permission before photographing strangers with a mobile-phone camera, not shouting and not answering the phone when sitting in a restaurant with a group of people. Other sites point out e-mail and messaging etiquette."
Thank you for pointing this out. After pointing my view out to my W, she tries to make me think that my boundary is about my trying to control her. What she doesn't see is that my setting my boundaries and sticking to them is really about trying to control ME!
Quote: So you can certainly feel justified in your comments to her.
Thank you. I don't feel so damn alone about my view now.
Quote: With my W I came home two different times and she was on the cell phone talking to OM. The second time I made her end the conversation then told her that I did NOT want her to bring her adultery into the common area of the house or around the children or me.
Scared the hell out of her because I MEANT it. I didn't DEBATE it with her. I said this is the way it is. I won't have it. At the time we were 'getting divorced' like you are so debating what I expect her to do in my presence wasn't going to happen.
She could respect my boundaries or get out, like you were going to take her home if she didn't stop.
End the debates. It's YOUR life now. There is nothing wrong with setting rules and boundaries and enforcing them.
I agree with your view. Even though we don't live together, I still control what I will allow myself to be subjected to. If someone won't show me respect, I will vote with my feet and cease the interaction until my boundaries are respected.
Quote:
Quote: I am adamant about not being willing to take my old M back. I won't go back into our M as the same person and I won't take her back as the same person either. Any stagnation is more ingredients for recreating the failed portions of our M.
Yep. Good for you. You really can't 'go back' you can only 'go forward'.
That's what I want to do. Unfortunately, W won't allow any progress except to chase OM and see where it leads. This is a sitch that if I were a betting person, I'd bet that this is going to end suddenly and badly. All I need to do is back off and D myself from the sitch. As you say, just smile and wave (and love and care for our children, of course).
Quote:
Quote: We end up going back to her house and she invites me to stay for dinner. I do. It's a nice time. Unfortunately, the nice times only confuse me and our D5 as to why my W is so fixed in her present mindset. My D is incredibly sad and confused and my W doesn't seem to notice even a little bit.
I wouldn't have stayed for dinner. You put yourself in HER environment so she could feel like she had control of you, even a little. You need to avoid that while she is in the midst of an affair. Remember this: She is DISRESPECTING you and your children by having an affair. YOU are showing her respect when you stay for dinner. Has she earned that respect?
She IS having an affair. She IS disrespecting me and our children. No she has cesrtainly NOT earned my respect with her behavior. Absolutely not. No more. She has her life and I have my life and we share two beautiful, perfect children. We are separate. I will continue to GAL and move foreward as though we will not reconcile.
Quote:
Quote: Today, I walked into work and walked right past her several times. After about 10 minutes, I looked up and she was looking at me. I smiled and said hello and went on about my business. My work day was busy but productive.
Just 'Smile and wave, smile and wave'. Don't put anything that remotely looks like 'feelings' into it. After doing that for a week with my W she started to get really uncomfortable knowing I didn't need her at all.
Today is day one. No talks except about our children. None. Nothing.
Quote:
Quote: My fear is that she will come in and try to manage me without being my boss. I talked to her about some of the "stuff" she has been doing lately which really negatively impact my work flow and the only thing she has to say about that is, "Well, that's how I work." My point exactly.
And then you say "That may be true. I am making the point that it is not how I work and because of that we can't work together unless you change how you interact with me." This is not a debate.
This I will do also. Be respectful, be clear, be firm.
Quote:
Quote: Too bad they don't treat me like I am a person/worker of value.
Question: If you started to say 'no' to doing things all the time because you're busy / overextended what would they do? Perhaps they don't treat you with value because you do too much to fix things all the time and they simply do not SEE what you are doing? All the little things in the background. I've done that in the past - had my hands in every place in the company and nobody really saw what I was doing for them until I STOPPED and only did what I was required to do.
They WILL see all the stuff that I "fix" starting tomorrow. I am going to stick with my core job responsibilities. One huge problem I see is that I have always stepped up to the plate and taken on responsibilities for tasks that needed to be done simply because the tasks need to be done. THEN, all of these tasks I have taken on morph into my ever expanding list of job responsibilities because only I am willing to tackle tasks as they come up.
Quote:
Quote: My saving grace is that I can see very clearly what my sh*t was that contributed to the deterioration of our M. She still doesn't see her part and I am not sure she ever will. She has maintained that I am 99% of the problem in our M and she is MAYBE 1%!! Maybe.
That will be the turning point, when she does see the light.
Keep your distance, and hold your ground. You are way ahead of her in this journey.
I hope that I am not so far ahead of her that she loses sight of me while lagging behind mired in her narcissistic existence. I love her. I pray for her. I pray for me. I pray for our children.
I can only address one point at the moment and that's going to be this one:
Quote: I seem to be boring you lately with my lack of "proper" DB/DRing.
Can you please remember that EVERYONE here is DBing in one form or the other and you are not the only one dealing with a mess?
You're not talking to a bunch of book smart pricey therapists here you are talking to people that are in the trenches AND GOING THROUGH the same sh*t you are.
I'm not posting much lately but it's NOT because you aren't doing it "properly".
It's because I'm trying to drag my own ass back up to the plate!
No, actually, most people only get boring when they are actually doing something RIGHT, not wrong, and since you almost never do the right things (I joke, lol) you can't be boring.
Don't take it personally but what I think you are witnessing is something I have seen happen a few times in my time here, that is people leaving, old posters not posting anymore for whatever reason, people moving to new boards, etc. It's the way of this place and there are precious few people who actually stick around for the long haul... and most of the time, that's a good thing.
Oh, and Amy, I resent that remark. I AM book smart, lol.
HH, you are doing fine. You talk too much, but me saying that to you is the pot calling the kettle black fer sure. Keep up the GOOD work and I promise I will do some real posting to you at some point.
GH
P.S. It seems like Frank is taking up the slack for us anyway. With him, you don't need the rest of us, lol.
