Need Help Staying on my Feet, Part 5

[grasshopper]

Oh God Rob, from what you wrote, and in starting with "GH is absolutely correct..." you somehow inferred that I, ME, GH, the one who hates the phrase "grow a pair" actually suggested that HH do so... damn, I'm slipping.

HH, I really do hate that phrase. I don't blame Rob for using it, but I believe your "pair" is probably fine. I know he said you only need to grow them, or rather, display the pot they're growing in to your W now and then, but the bottom line is that I believe you to have a pair, and know how to use them, you just don't when it comes to her, for good reason; she's convinced you that the only value you have is what you do for her. While I think that sucks, the dynamic is there in my R too and slowly I am trying to change that. In my sitch, I have the benefit of asking my W to do for me in reciprocation instead of having to just quit doing for her altogether.

HH, you have a pair, of that I am sure, just recognize that your life is now yours, something your W will have to come to understand sooner (better) or later (worse).

GH

[PArob]

Sorry GH, what I meant to say is pretty much the way you summed it up...I didn't mean that he get all alpha male on her, but basically to become more valuable to his W other than being an errand boy. So, in deference to your much more eloquently stated advice, I retract the statement.

[grasshopper]

NO, no, no. I didn't mean for you to do that. Sometimes I think my "eloquent"-ness would be better replaced by some direct "smack", i.e. grow a pair... I just have a personal thing with that statement. Maybe I was a eunuch in a past life, lol.

In reality HE is the one going all alpha-male on her (lol) but actually, now that you bring it up, I think that is also a problem. Some days, minutes, hours, HH, you ARE the alpha male you talk to frank about and other times, you are a capa-male. I think building up some consistency is key. I don't think you can NEVER do anything for her, just establish some kind of consistency to when you will say no, i.e. when you are otherwise obligated to be somewhere or do something else, etc.

The point is not to be an a-hole, it's to be assertive of your own life and not to feel guilty for that. I have a LOT to learn in that respect, as do many of us.

GH

[Still_Standing]

My W told me this before I cheated on her: that I am the only person who truly knows and accepts her for who she is and she believed that no matter how badly she treated me, that I would NEVER leave.

Ok, I had to go WAY back to the first few posts in your original thread to figure out if your sitch was the one where the W was constantly threatening D all the time, even before all this... sadly it is. Wow. Put that together with this quote and, well, it doesn't look good.

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You're telling me?!?! I know my DB/DR efforts are a long shot to succeed at best. If I were a betting person, I wouldn't be betting on us to reconcile, but I still have hope and my belief in miracles.

I just want Amy and other "long-timers" with HH to remember that his W has used the threat of divorce to keep him off balance their entire marriage (according to HH's early posts) and she seems to have a VERY strong penchant for trying to manipulate him into doing just what she wants. Her main tool for this is to somehow make him feel like he's never doing enough and that she's always on the verge of leaving.

Sadly true.

HH, this quote you posted disturbed me to say the least. I think this is one of those things a lot of people THINK but to actually say it out loud, wow.

Cut me to the core. And yet I still haven't run for good. I am a glutton for punishment and emotional pain with my W, apparently.

I think one of the major underlying things in your sitch seems to be the fact that for SO long your R with W has been based on what you did for her, not who your were around her, or at least you THINK that's the way it was.

Let me tell you a short story of when we first started dating. My W would go to her mother's weekly to wash clothes and wash her car. I went with her once around our second date. She was going to wash her car and I offered to do it for her while she tended to her laundry. I washed the car. She came out, said nothing, pulled out the bucket and hose and re-washed her car right in front of me without saying a word. And I didn't run then either. I was too busy TEACHING her how to treat me. Lookig back, and living in the world of SHOULD.... Ugh. But then again, I'd take 10 times the headaches and heartaches to have my two angels. Of course, I'd rather be loved for being me. But that is either another story or another chapter in my life. Only time will tell.

Now, at each turn, your guilt over what you did, which, BTW, in the very beginning hearing how your W treated you I was VERY close (sorry, I KNOW this is wrong) to excusing your actions (but I didn't... because there is never an excuse)... anyway, I see your guilt/history with W making you feel like you have to continue your "doing for her" in order to get your M back. I actually think you are right. I know in my M this is somewhat the case too but you know what? You only have to "do" for her if you want the OLD marriage back.

I hear you. I DO NOT want my old M back. My old M was/is simply a recipe for disaster. I, she, and our children deserve better.

If you want a new one, you have to accept that it can't be based on duty but rather love and mutual respect, a respect that at this point I suspect neither of you has much of for different reasons.

True, true.

I wonder if that respect ever existed. If not, I can see how hard it may be to build on something that is nonexistent. I struggle with this in my sitch too.

In looking back, I wonder if respect ever existed also. Respect certainly wasn't shown much by her, and I suspect by me either. Certainly makes our battle to reconcile that much more uphill.

So when Amy gets upset at you for things like picking up dry-cleaning, I think it's because she notices the overall tone of your sitch and the fact that your W, if given the opportunity AT THIS POINT, will choose to feed off you (your emotions/duty) until your carcass is dry and then she'll let you blow away in the wind.

I am finally seeing this trait in her (and in my willingness to allow it).

I don't think there is no hope...

I share that sentiment. I cling to my shred of hope for a miracle. Unfortunately, my MORE OF THE SAME behavior towards my W is slowly but surely choking my shred of hope out of my M.

...but it's painfully obvious that the dynamic that HAS to change in your R with your W is still present today and that is her perceived control over you. If you can change that dynamic, the same one that I think did severe damage to your M in the first place, then I think you can begin to see if there is something real to build a new future on.

And here we are. I know this dynamic certainly led to the deterioration of our M. I know that changing this dynamic is THE key to building a new future together. I am willing to do this. She is not.

HH, I know you are already working towards these goals but I really think you need to once again look at your marriage BEFORE the affair and start to understand that as you originally suspected, your W was looking for a way out. She THOUGHT you gave her that but is still hanging around. Once you remove your "helping" her from the equation, and she still hangs around, THEN you can start to rebuild. If you remove your "helping", or rather her control over you, and she sees no more value in you or the R, well then...

Then I will be released from her spell over me and I will be able to move forward with a clear conscience that I did EVERYTHING I possibly could to make amends, to atone for my mistake, to attempt to restore and reconcile my M. I am, at least now, clear that I very much want NOT need my W and M.

I feel like I am not being very positive but reading some of those first posts made me not like your W very much right now. Sorry for that. I know sometimes you may not want to hear that. I'm sure she has great qualities but as I recently posted, often we only see the dark side of the "spouses" on this board and it's her dark side I am reacting to today.

I also am deeply affected by her most recent behavior and choices, which I truly believe is driven by her her hurt, anger, disappointment and feelings of betrayal, as well as her own baggage which she brought into our M. Or is this simply my being an apologist for my W, which I seem to be expert in being? I don't know. I am simply trying to save my M.

[Still_Standing]

...and one of the ways that you must acheive that is to forgive yourself for your indiscretion. I don't think you've done that and that's why you find yourself constantly catering to the whims of your W. Stop.

I have finally drawn my line in the "quik-crete" (quick dry cement) today and stepped over it. My W conned me into taking care of a work appointment for her b/c she needed to run some of her loan doc paperwork around this morning which prevented her from keeping her appointment with a vendor. I pitched in, as I always do, to cover for her. Well, I arrive to drop our children off at the babysitter's house (which is across the street from her house) and I see a car in front of her house that I don't recognize. Unfortunately, my D needs to go into the house to get a pair of socks. My D wants me to go in with her, but I decline sensing that the car in front of her house belongs to OM. I stay out front and tell my D, please, just go in and grab your socks and come RIGHT back to me. Well, being 5, she is trying to find mommy. She finds mommy's door locked (thank goodness).

I hear the walkthrough door to the garage open and close and then my D comes back out front through the side gate. I walk with my D to the babysitter's house and I see my W through the fence slats smoking. She says nothing to me, of course. My C told me that I know what I know about her life b/c she wants me to know and is expert (she thinks) at getting to my feelings. My W knew I was going to drop off our children this morning and has a two-car garage. OM's car was outside for me to see, I do believe. SHE is not a stupid woman. She is cold and calculated when it comes to me.

I make it to her appointment and I am seething. Another lie! Another bit of using me because she places no value on me as a person nor consesequently on my time or my feelings. THAT is why I finally drew my permanent line in the cement, rather than in the sand. We are going to build a new marriage or we are simply gointg to bury our old disfunctional one? Either way, all of us are moving forward.

What you did was wrong

I know this and I have never said otherwise.

The fact is, it happened and you came back to your W.

Yes, I have, at least as far as she will allow me to "do for" her.

So, please, give up the martyr attitude and, well, grow a pair when it comes to your W. Honestly, she doesn't respect you and until you learn to get that respect, she'll continue walking over you.

I have taken my pair off of her mantle and re-claimed them after covering for her for the appointment this morning. My D5 was whining that she wanted to stay with her mommy tonight (my night). I told my W that I realized that she had plans with OM tonight and that D5 staying would put a crimp in her plans. She said that D5 would simply have to go out with her and OM. I told my W, absolutely not. I reminded my with that our agreement was the D5 and OM were to have NO further contact until further in the future. My W said she knewo this. I reminded her that she knew this before and I found out she broke that agreement from our D5!!! I told her that I hate surprises! I reminded her that when SHE decided to re-introduce our D and OM again, that she was to discuss her plans with me first, as I am D's father. W agreed, but I still have zero trust in her judgment and decision making ability right now. She is all about herself, not anyone else, including our children.

This evening I told my W that I would have our children back to her on Sunday at 5:00 PM. I told her, do not call me and tell me that you need for me to bring them back later because I will NOT be answering my cell phone. I will simply be there at 5:00 PM. She says she will be at the house and says that she may even want them back earlier on Sunday. I tell her, they will NOT be back before 5:00 on Sunday, they will be back AT 5:00 PM. She says if you want to be that inflexible. I tell her that I am simply responding to her behavior and that our schedule will be that rigid going forward. I do tell her that D5 will call her each evening to say goodnight and drive away.

My D calms down and tells me later that she is happy that she came with daddy. Honestly, D only wanted to stay over at the babysitter's overnight to play with the niece, which my W has a penchant for doing. My D desperately misses her mother, but W is off in lala land chasing "me" time and neglecting the nurturing of her R with out D because she is focused on her own narcissistic self. I feel so bad for our D, but I also realize I am not in the mother-daughter R fixing business and simply speak of my W in a positive light to our D and assure D that mommy loves her and wants to spend time with her. I don't know that mommy does want to spend time wtih D5, but I hope my words are re-assuring to our D. What I do is really try to compensate for my W's lack of focus on and nurturing of our D by focusing and nurturing her with extra helpings of patience, love, conversation, and understanding.

The fact of the matter is, and this is something you have to come to terms with, demanding respect may very well indeed end your marriage, simply because it sounds to me (from reading your description of her) as though your W is used to getting her way.

She is used to getting her way, in ALL aspects of her life, not just her M. She simply vaporizes those who will not get on the W bandwagon and cheerlead her behavior and choices. Well, I am no longer willing to be on the W bandwagon, no longer willing to cheerlead her behavior and choices, and no longer willing to be her apologist.

I don't know what life was like with you two before this mess, but if she was anything like she is now, you may have a problem.

She was like this before, but only to a lesser degree and much more secretive. We do have a problem, but I know that I only have control over one person, me, and that I have the ability to (and will) change the circular nature of our interactions/conversations by exerting my will to make changes in a gently assertive way. Things are going to change. I am making the choice to change OR, only she is not fully aware of the implications. She will be soon though.

The best thing for you to do, is to respect yourself, stand your ground when it comes to her tirades and demands and see where the chips fall.

THAT is my plan. I have been sitting on my block of ice from being kicked in the nuts so often in my sitch. The ice block is gone, as is the numbness it provided and I realize that although my A was wrong, I have done what I can to atone for my mistake and to make amends to her. I have asked for her forgiveness and promised that I will not repeat this behavior. I have made myself available to restore and reconcile our M. I have cared for our children and gone out of my way to show her that I do love her. She knows where I stand. She has made her stance clear. NOW it is time to take care of me and our children and lovingly care for her from a distance. I am lovingly detached. I willingly let her go. I have not given up hope for our marital restoration and reconciliation (R&R), but realize that my C is correct, we have NO hope for R&R if she is unwilling/unable to see what she needs to work on and is unwilling/unable to meke the necessary changes. So, I work on me and pray that God guides me to be the man the He always intended for me to be.

Interesting note: Today I went to lunch with a friend/vendor. My W calls me to tell me that an automobile caught fire behind one of the buildings we manage and that the fire department is there waiting and that I need to go and take picutes and talk with them.

I tell my W, well, that means I have to get up from the restaurant table I just sat down to for lunch, but that's OK, I'm on my way. My W then inquires, who are you having lunch with? I tell her again. She asks me two more times and I simply tell her a friend. My W gets that response b/c that is what she always tells me whether she has a date with OM or a GF. It pisses her off and she always responds with, "You're dating someone and you will NEVER tell me, will you?" I've stopped answering that question. No matter how many times I say no, I believe she uses her belief to assuage her feelings about what SHE is doing. I usually end up telling her the next day who I was with. But regardless, I am puzzled by her insistence in asking me about my life when she has been consistent in telling me that her personal life is none of my business and per private time is her private time. So, tell me, would it be better to continue to tell her the truth that I am NOT dating (or looking to date) anyone, as I have told her repeatedly? Would it be better to tell her this immediately when she asks? Or is it better handling it the way I am handling it now? The only reason I don't immediately answer her with my boring details is that I feel doing that is just more of the same. I don't know. Please give me your perspective. Thanks.

[Still_Standing]

...but I believe your "pair" is probably fine. I know he said you only need to grow them, or rather, display the pot they're growing in to your W now and then, but the bottom line is that I believe you to have a pair, and know how to use them, you just don't when it comes to her...

This is true. For some reason I surrendured my ability to be me when I began pursuing her. I believe this goes back long before her to my own feelings of not being good enough so I chose a mate who would help me live out my deep-rooted feelings of inadequacy. Strange thing is, I pursue this in my primary love relationship. Fertile are of work with my C.

...for good reason; she's convinced you that the only value you have is what you do for her.

Again, this is what I re-inforced for her during OR. Not good, but also not permanent. Lots of work to repair though.

In my sitch, I have the benefit of asking my W to do for me in reciprocation instead of having to just quit doing for her altogether.

She says that she will do favors for me. Problem is, I ALMOST NEVER ask her to do anything for me. I suppose this goes with my martyr behavior. On rare occassion I will ask and although she will generally satisfy my request, it is only after the "do I have to, I really don't want to" facial expressions/body language.

HH, you have a pair, of that I am sure, just recognize that your life is now yours, something your W will have to come to understand sooner (better) or later (worse).

With the encouragement of my brethren here,I have remembered that, yes, I do have a pair. I am only now discovering that behaving like and honoring my true self is a desirable trait and doing so may, very well, hasten the end of my M (& hopefully will NOT) but will also insure that MY life going forward will be fulfilling and that I will be happy, healthy and whole. I am hoping that she comes to recognize that I am a person worthy of her respect sooner rather than later also. I don't want it to happen too late for us to reconcile. I am keeping my foot in the door and the light on for her.

[Still_Standing]

NO, no, no. I didn't mean for you to do that. Sometimes I think my "eloquent"-ness would be better replaced by some direct "smack", i.e. grow a pair...

I have never been accused of having eloquent-ness, just being long-winded or verbose.
[quoteIn reality HE is the one going all alpha-male on her (lol) but actually, now that you bring it up, I think that is also a problem. Some days, minutes, hours, HH, you ARE the alpha male you talk to frank about and other times, you are a capa-male. I think building up some consistency is key.

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From our past MC regarding dealing with our D5. When trying to change the behavior of your child you don't need to discipline the child, you need to discipline yourelves. Consistency is the key. Knowing what action will get what response on a consistent basis WILL get the desired behavioral change results you desire. I don't want to insult anyone, but I am thinking that same consistency (NOT discipline, of course) will be the key to perhaps changing my sitch.

I don't think you can NEVER do anything for her, just establish some kind of consistency to when you will say no, i.e. when you are otherwise obligated to be somewhere or do something else, etc.

THIS sounds much more like me and something I will maintain.

The point is not to be an a-hole, it's to be assertive of your own life and not to feel guilty for that.

I have been working so hard to not show bitterness about her choices and path right now. Sometimes is still oozes out though, d*mnit. Being gently assertive has proven most effective with my W and I have found that acting this was does not produce guilt for me. My MIL told me a long time ago that making soft hints with my W will often result in her taking on an idea as her own and embracing it.

I too still have a LOT to learn, about humility, patience, respect, boundaries and love. I working on all of it every day though.

[Still_Standing]

more journaling- 7/29/06

I thought about my most recent postings, and it struck me. I did not make it clear that I am nowhere near being ready to give up on my M or my W. I am just sad and in dire need of working on my patience, love, humility, kindness, and understanding. I work on all of this daily. Sometimes I get weary, but I never lose sight of my goal.

Thanks again for listening to my ramblings. I do love my W and want to restoration and reconcile my M. For now I'll be the only one in my M working on that I know.

[Still_Standing]

more journaling- 7/29/06+

Spent last night and today with our children. I love them both so much. They are such precious gifts from God. My S will turn 1 on 8/10 and my D5 will turn 6 on 8/24. Big days for little people.

I feel sad for my D5. She is so hurt, confused, angry, and lonely for mommy. I try to comfort and reassure her that she will always be safe, loved and cared for and that mommy and daddy's troubles are NOT her fault. Unfortunately, I don't know what mommy is telling her since mommy has been telling D5 (& anyone who will listen) that we are already divorced. My D asks me if we are divorced and I tell her the truth. Not yet, but it looks like we will be. I don't say anything negative about mommy. The saddest part of it all is that D5 is afraid to talk to mommy about her feelings. Absolutely afraid. Sad.

We stayed in most of the day. Ran a couple of errands and spent time together. My S is so funny. He is happiest when he is sin my arms. Serious daddy's boy. D5 is a daddy's gir, but she misses mommy lots. I hpe that my W will open her eyes and see that bving in the same house is not the same as spending quality time togethesr and bonding. Unfortunately, I remember my W telling me that she considered it to be quality by just being in the same house at tHE same time. Perhaps that also extends to our D. I hope not.

Well, night all. Got some prayin' to do.

[Still_Standing]

more journaling- 7/29/06

I need to edit my post from last night as I was fading fast and typing slow (and inacurately). Corrections in red! Here goes....

I hope that my W will open her eyes and see that being in the same house is not the same as spending quality time together and bonding. Unfortunately, I remember my W telling me that she considered it to be quality time for me and her by just being in the same house at the same time. Perhaps that (same thinking) also extends to my W spending time with our D. I hope not.

Well, night all. Got some prayin' to do.

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