more journaling- 7/26/06---->Amy, Frank, and GH, pull out the scalpels, a lot of stuff to disect. Help!!
Backsliding again, then standing up for myself. Here it goes.... My W asked me to run an errand w/ her during work. I said sure. We went and all was fine. When we got back she wanted to go to lunch with some officemates and wanted me to stay in the office to cover lunch and I told her that I had field work that I needed to do so I couldn't stay in the office to cover. I was soon being invited to go to lunch with everyone (by them, not her) and my W said to me, "I bet you wanna go to lunch with me, huh?" I said flatly, nope. Have field work I gotta do. She persisted, "I know you want to go to lunch with me, huh?" Again, I declined. When I relatled this story to a friend, I was asked, is she flirting with you? My response was, I don't think so, but my MIL thinks we flirt with e/o ALL THE TIME. I will admit, I do flirt with her all the time, but if she flirts with me I don't see it. But then again, I am often told that a lot of women flirt with me, and I don't see it. My W used to tell me this all the time, that I am dense and blind in that way.<shrug>
Anyway, fast forward to later. My W calls me to tell me that she has a signing tonight and wants to know if I will watch our children on her night for a little while. I tell her I will take them to my place and bring them back in the morning. She is upset at that and cajoles me into watching them at her house until she gets back. I tell her that I am extremely wary of her regularly being VERY late when I am with our children b/c of her signings. I do, in the end, agree to keep them at her house until she arrives. Later I receive a call when she is on her way back telling me that she is still not feeling well (she told me this earlier) and asks me if I will switch nights being with our children and take our children to my place tonight b/c she wants to come home and go straight to bed and then she will have them on my night (tomorrow). I tell her no, I am not willing to switch nights. I am perfectly willing and capable of being with our children tonight and tomorrow (MY) night. She is now pissed. She says well then you would have them tonight, tomorrow night and all weekend. Do you not want me to see my children ever? I tell her that I did not say that. I just wasn't willing to switch nights with her. I've told her this several times before tonight, but his is the first time I was standingmy ground. She then starts calling me choice (swearing) names and tells me that she will be home in 10 minutes and wants me out of the house as soon as she gets there.
I call her back in a minute to tell her that I will need to return shortly after leaving b/c our D5 lost one of her front teeth and I want to leave some $1 bills in the garage to leave D5 from the tooth fairy. I also ask her if she has calmed down and she lets me know that I am a different bunch of choice names.
Lo and behold, I see our mutual friend drive up. This friend does not drive up out of the blue. My W had plans to go out to dinner with our friend tonight, NOT to come home and go straight to bed, as she would have me believe. Hmmm...interesting sh*t that I don't think I was supposed to see, as my W was working feverishly to get me to take our children to my place so she could "rest and feel better." Ooops. Anyway, I talk to our friend for a bit and my W is giving me the death stare to get the F out of her house. She also tells me that I need to clean up the mess that I made in hesr house. I told her that all I did was make a pizza and used paper plates which I had already cleaned up and I would have cleaned up the rest, but she was pissed at me so I was trying to get out of her house ASAP. She began a new round of choice names and I told her, look, I don't want to fight with you, to which she responed with yet another choice round of names. I simply said, coming from you right now, I'll take that as a compliment. Good night. I left, saying goodnight to our friend and our children.
No judgements here, but I am at a loss as to how my W can tell me with a straight face that she misses our children and wants to be with them and in the same breath lies to me about wanting me to take them with me tonight because she needs to go to bed, knowing she has already made dinner plans with a friend. Honestly, I am having trouble getting my arms around this. A friend of mine told me again tonight, she is showing you clearly that she doesn't give a sh*t about you and you just haven't wanted to see it, but now you are forced to look at it b/c your nose is being rubbed in it day in and day out and you have never wanted to look at this or admit it is the truth in your M. <I throw myself on the ground kicking and screaming shouting, NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!> Crap, he is right I don't want to look at this or admit this is true about my M. I am hating this reality.
I related a story to my C today regarding my MIL coming to me and saying, "Well, your M has never been good." Instantly, I wanted to take that big sack of sh*t, sling it over my shoulder and carry that load on my back, stink and all. I wanted to take full responsibility for the deterioration of my M. That is certainly my guilt run amok. Still having trouble shedding layer after layer of that d*mn cloak I still choose to wear. My C said, quite simply, you are both responsible 50% each for the deterioration of your M or VERY close to that number. I am a strong believer in those numbers as being our reality, but my W insists that I was responsible fo r99% of our problems and she was mayabe responbible for 1%. Nice, don'tcha think? I clearly have an uphill battle, but I am IN the battle and am NOT giving up for the foreseeable future. I want my W, my M, and my family back. But my C made a very clear point. I have NO chance of achieving success in saving my M if my W refuses to work on making changes in herself. I truly see her as being lost and running from her reality. I hope and pray she will take an honest inventory of herself and work on making changes that she is able to identify, as I pray that God touches me each day to open my mind and heart to the path that will lead me towards being the man the He always intended me to be. I work on myself daily, and I am fortunate enough to have befriended wonderful people here kind enough to peel my eyelids open so that I will see myself and my behavior clearly.
When she left the office in the PM to do her signing my W called back to ask me to do a favor. I said I probably would and asked her what she needed. She told me that she needed for me to pick up (& pay for) her dry cleaning before I picked up our children. She could tell I was hesitating, and I explained that I needed to explain the impact of her "needs" on me when she expects me to fulfull her requests (demands). I told her that she was asking me to leave work early AND get to our children late. Those impositions and challenges did not matter to her, because they belonged to me, NOT her. And besides, I had always catered to her requests/demands and wants/needs before, so why not NOW also? Well, I've finally come to the realization that more of the same is slowly choking the little remaining life out of our gasping M, and I am now willing to do something different! Regardless, she listened and remained focues on what SHE needed. She suggested that I could write my child support for the normal amount less the drycleaning charges.
Anyway, I did leave 10 ninutes early and made it to my children less than 5 minutes late. It's wackiness like this that is going to get me a ticket or into another accident.
Now, the sh*tstorm is rapidly approaching as the call comes just before she is due back at the house. I held firm, determined to stop being her "beck and call" and being her YES boy. I was NOT nasty or mean, I simply firmly said no and stuck to it. Now, THAT is not doing more of the same!But of course, that drew a tirade of choice name calling and venom that I haven't witnessed in quite some time. But again, all I had to do was say NO, mean NO, and stand my ground without getting angry. I think her inability to engage me in a fight or to elicit a tirade from me pisses her off more than anything. My C said that the more I detach from her emotionally, the more she will try to "hook" me back into what is familiar territory, either through anger or through flirting/niceties. I don't know, I just know that her emotions are all over the board and the only way I can reasonably expect some certainty in her behavior is if I "serve" her, as in, be her servant.
I am clear on this point. I don't want the relationship back to have peace only by "serving" her. I love doing for her, but not being her servant with service expectations! I have wants and needs also, and I am done ignoring them to my own detriment and unhappiness. I have already found out that being my W's footstool is not a workaable R. I was unhappy and afraid before and those feelings allowed me to make my stupid and cowardly decision to perpetuate sh*tty couple behavior patterns in our M for far too long to both of our unhappiness that unfortunately became the norm. I am unwilling to settle for unhappiness as the norm. I deserve happiness as the norm, as does my W and our children. I will approach my DB/DR efforts with grace and humility and without any expectations except to be treated with respect.
It's so strange how a day, which started out going reasonably well, ended up in such a mess. I am anxious to see what tomorrow brings between us b/c we will see e/o at work tomorrow and she will need my assistance with a few things like she does every day. I will be telling myself now, and will continue telling myself tomorrow, "Think calm! Think, then respond! Act "As If! Think patience, love and understanding!"
For those of you who pray, please pray for my and my W's calm and patience tomorrow. My feeling is that we are going to need it! For those of you who don't pray, please send us your positive mental energy. Thank you for listening.
Our D5 spent the night at our babysitter's house. Today I talked with my W by phone. I do hope that my W is feeling better, she still seems to be a bit under the weather with stomach issues. Again, she has been sick for half of the time that we have been apart. Don't know what the correlation is, but know her illness time is accurate.
Anyway, our interaction was measured, but not unpleasant. She smiled at me and hopefully yesterday's unpleasant stuff is behind us. We will see.
Tonight I have our children and then again tomorrrow night and all weekend! I am so excited to have them with me. I miss them so much when I am not with them. They brighten my days and nights just by being themselves. They are both perfect.
I've been reading your thread for quite some time. This is my first post to you.
From what I've read, you let your wife walk all over you. I know how it feels because I was in the same situation as you with my husband. I too was being treated as a doormat but I refused to be treated like one now.
When your wife asks for a "favor" ask her if it's regarding the kids, and if it is then ask her what the favor is then give her an answer. If she says it's not about the kids, tell her that you can't do anymore favors for her.
Quote: "I bet you wanna go to lunch with me, huh?" I said flatly, nope. Have field work I gotta do. She persisted, "I know you want to go to lunch with me, huh?" Again, I declined.
Okay, when I read this statement, it told me that wife is so full of herself right now. She thinks she has you wrapped around her little finger. I don't think it's so much as flirting with you (and I hope I'm wrong) but I think she is just pulling your strings (her being the puppet master and you being the puppet). She sees you flirt back, maybe gets a little rush, and then I bet she turns cold. It's almost like a little fix for her...she wants to see if you are still there for her to get a little ego boost.
I've also noticed that when you do stand your ground with your wife she flies off the handle and starts cursing you and calling you every name in the book. She's throwing a tantrum. Walk away, or hang up on her if she does this to you over the phone.
What I've learned and I'm sure you know this too, we can't change others, we can only change ourselves.
Take care
M:43 H:37 D14 (ours) D18 (mine) S22 (mine) S18 (his) S: 10/2004 Bomb: 2/15/05 In/out of home Living with OW #4 Talks of D for 2-1/2 years
Maybe if he hears it from someone other than me, Frank or Grasshopper it will start to sink in.
HH, I have been unable to post to you since first thing this morning when I realized you DID GO GET her dry cleaning .
That was simply IT for me.
I just can't believe you did that after all the name calling and cussing, the lie about feeling bad and then having secret dinner plans....oh the list just goes on and on...
You need to cut off the blood supply to this tumor formerly known as your wife.
Thank you for deciding to post. Obviously I am having an extremely difficult time dealing with my W and setting appropriate boundaries due to my indescretion and my horribly inescapable guilt. Apparently I haven't finished blaming and punishing myself for my cowardly and selfish behavior.
Quote: From what I've read, you let your wife walk all over you.
Sad, but true. I am trying to stop my incessantly personally destructive behavior when I interact wtih my W. But, as my sister says, trying is LYING! I am working on it and with each backsliding interaction I am pissing off the people who are trying to help me change my behavior and better my sitch.
Quote: I know how it feels because I was in the same situation as you with my husband. I too was being treated as a doormat but I refused to be treated like one now.
I am sorry to hear that we have that in common. I look forward to changing my behavior with my W and refusing to be treated like a doormat anymore. In the end, yesterday was a start. Today was another step in that direction. For me, I have to get there one babystep at a time. Most people who know me and my sitch are watching me and shaking there heads. I understand that, but I am doing the best that I can; a little at a time, but I AM getting there. My W is leaving me with NO choice for my own self preservation. I am asking that those who care about me and my sitch please continue giving me your encouragement and patience.
Quote: When your wife asks for a "favor" ask her if it's regarding the kids, and if it is then ask her what the favor is then give her an answer. If she says it's not about the kids, tell her that you can't do anymore favors for her.
I WILL begin doing this starting right now. If it is not concerning our children or work, I will tell her that I am UNWILLING to do personal favors for her anymore.
Quote:
Quote: "I bet you wanna go to lunch with me, huh?" I said flatly, nope. Have field work I gotta do. She persisted, "I know you want to go to lunch with me, huh?" Again, I declined.
Okay, when I read this statement, it told me that wife is so full of herself right now. She thinks she has you wrapped around her little finger.
Yes, my W is full of herself right now as she is out fulfilling her marriage-long fantasy (my belief from watching her behavior now and before) of being single and being able to go out flirting, dating and chasing male attention 'til her hearts content. Also, she does believe that she has me wrapped around her finger and I have done VERY LITTLE to dissuade her from believing just that.
Quote: I don't think it's so much as flirting with you (and I hope I'm wrong) but I think she is just pulling your strings (her being the puppet master and you being the puppet). She sees you flirt back, maybe gets a little rush, and then I bet she turns cold. It's almost like a little fix for her...she wants to see if you are still there for her to get a little ego boost.
Close, she flirts with me also for a little bit first, THEN goes cold as she snaps back to her "divorce game plan." I am positive that it is a "fix" for her b/c male attention (yes, even mine, unfortunately) is her ego boost/fix. Plus,she does want to know that I am there for her, regardless of how sh*tty she treats me. Even while holding onto her unshakeable belief that D is the ONLY path for her, she has regularly accused me of "seeing" someone, even though SHE is still the one out dating. Perhaps her accusations of me dating are to help her assuage her own guilt for what she is engaging in now. But then again, that would mean that she has a conscience right now about her behavior and I truly think she has taken a vacation from her conscience. Again,
My W told me this before I cheated on her: that I am the only person who truly knows and accpets her for who she is and she believed that no matter how badly she treated me, that I would NEVER leave. I believe this is where a lot of her anger from my betrayal is derived from, her shock and disappointment in me AND in her being so wrong in her belief that I had an endless capacity for her poor treatment of me. No excuse for what I did, I know, but I have realized that we BOTH contributed equally to the deterioration of our M. My C told me that my M has NO hope of restoration and reconciliation if my W refuses to look at her own "stuff" and does not decide to make changes. I am working diligently to clean up my side of the fence. I am hopeful she will do the same on her side, as I am unable to help her there.
Quote: I've also noticed that when you do stand your ground with your wife she flies off the handle and starts cursing you and calling you every name in the book. She's throwing a tantrum. Walk away, or hang up on her if she does this to you over the phone.
I will do this also. I have refused to join in on her tantrums and invitations to fight. THAT seems to infuriate her even more. My C told me that the more I detach emotionally, the more she will try to drag me back to familiar territory.
Quote: What I've learned and I'm sure you know this too, we can't change others, we can only change ourselves.
I have learned that. Heck, changing me is certainly difficult and time consuming enough.
Quote: Take care
I'll certainly work on that. I have my children all weekend to keep me occupied and happy. Plus, our string of 100+ degree days is over as of today. Almost 2 weeks.
Thank you for posting. Please continue posting on my saga as you see fit. Your perspective was VERY helpful to help me see my sitch from yet another angle and to help me work through my sitch yet again in my own head. I'm gettin' there. It is becoming more clear each day that MY way is the surest way to slowly but surely choke the remaining faint breath of life out of my M.
People, please don't give up on me just yet. I know it doesn't look like it, but I am making progress in my own head first so that I can make progress in my sitch. Again, I AM gettin' there. I desperately want to DB/DR my M and restore/rebuild my family unit to a happy, healthy, whole one!
Maybe if he hears it from someone other than me, Frank or Grasshopper it will start to sink in.
Sadly, it seems my wheel spinning has pissed you off. Whether it looks like it or not, I am making progress with your help. I do understand your disappointment and frustration with me though. I have the same feelings about my struggle to change my behavior patterns, and thus my sitch.
Quote: HH, I have been unable to post to you since first thing this morning when I realized you DID GO GET her dry cleaning .
That was simply IT for me.
It makes me sad, that THAT was the only portion of that LONG post that stuck with you, sh*tty as that was.
Quote: I just can't believe you did that after all the name calling and cussing, the lie about feeling bad and then having secret dinner plans....oh the list just goes on and on...
In re-reading my post, I see where I led you to believe that I got the drycleaning after my W's tirade and after I found out about her dinner plans. My post mislead you into believing that. I got the drycleaning before the tirade and before I found out about the dinner plans and the lie about feeling so awful that she just wanted to go straight to bed. Now, regardless of when I picked up the drycleaning, that was another in a long list of F-ups on my part. I am seeing my errors and where I need to make changes. Yes, I am seeing my mistakes after the fact, but I AM seeing them nonetheless. I have NO hope of changing what needs to be changed in me unless I SEE it first. BTW, the list does go on and on wtih my W. I understand that that is another part of my sitch that I need to stop allowing through my weak and aimless behavior.
Quote: You need to cut off the blood supply to this tumor formerly known as your wife.
An appropriate analogy. I do need to do this and I have begun the process of bleeding the tumor dry. Again, i AM getting there. Maybe not as fast as those who care about me would like (and advise), but I am making progress even if my posts don't reflect all of the progress. My head is becoming more clear each day. I am struggling with all of this because I want, so much, to achieve redemption, restoration, and reconciliation. I love my W very much. I have come to understand during all of this though, that I want her, I don't need her. That realization doesn't make it all hurt any less.
Tonight I went to pick up our children and my D was irritable when I got there and told me I have seen you all day and I want to stay with Mommy. I know what she really meant is that she wanted to stay with our babysitter's niece and little brother, whom she had been with all day. My D wanted to go to my W's softball game because all of them were going. I told my W it was OK and took my son with me.
He and I laid on the floor and played with his thick page books and he laughed, drooled, and crawled all over me. We had so much fun bonding. I love that little boy so much. It was a beautiful time.
9:15 rolled around and I called my W to ask where my D was. My W said they were almost to my place. When my D arrived, I talked with her for a while. I told her that I understood how fun it is to play with the kids, Daddy doesn't get to spend enough time with her. We talked about our need to spend time together when we can and I explained that it is important for me and for us to make sure we spend our time together and that my sheduled time with her was time that we were going to spend together in the future. She understood, I am pretty sure, and we ended up having a beautiful evening together. I love my little Ms. Personality Plus, too.
My D called mommy to ask her to bring her diffent pajamas. My W brought them over and told me right away that she couldn't stay. I told her, I didn't ask you to stay. On her way out the door, she remarked that she really liked how my place looked. I said thanks.
I also decided that I will not allow my W to decorate my D's room at my place. I discussed this with my D that she (my D) and I would be in charge of decorating her room. She said that mommy is a good painter. So I said mommy could help. My D then told me that SHE(my D) would be in charge! Bossy little thing, isn't she?
Quote: My W told me this before I cheated on her: that I am the only person who truly knows and accepts her for who she is and she believed that no matter how badly she treated me, that I would NEVER leave.
Ok, I had to go WAY back to the first few posts in your original thread to figure out if your sitch was the one where the W was constantly threatening D all the time, even before all this... sadly it is. Wow. Put that together with this quote and, well, it doesn't look good.
I just want Amy and other "long-timers" with HH to remember that his W has used the threat of divorce to keep him off balance their entire marriage (according to HH's early posts) and she seems to have a VERY strong penchant for trying to manipulate him into doing just what she wants. Her main tool for this is to somehow make him feel like he's never doing enough and that she's always on the verge of leaving.
HH, this quote you posted disturbed me to say the least. I think this is one of those things a lot of people THINK but to actually say it out loud, wow.
I think one of the major underlying things in your sitch seems to be the fact that for SO long your R with W has been based on what you did for her, not who your were around her, or at least you THINK that's the way it was. Now, at each turn, your guilt over what you did, which, BTW, in the very beginning hearing how your W treated you I was VERY close (sorry, I KNOW this is wrong) to excusing your actions (but I didn't... because there is never an excuse)... anyway, I see your guilt/history with W making you feel like you have to continue your "doing for her" in order to get your M back. I actually think you are right. I know in my M this is somewhat the case too but you know what? You only have to "do" for her if you want the OLD marriage back. If you want a new one, you have to accept that it can't be based on duty but rather love and mutual respect, a respect that at this point I suspect neither of you has much of for different reasons.
I wonder if that respect ever existed. If not, I can see how hard it may be to build on something that is nonexistent. I struggle with this in my sitch too.
So when Amy gets upset at you for things like picking up dry-cleaning, I think it's because she notices the overall tone of your sitch and the fact that your W, if given the opportunity AT THIS POINT, will choose to feed off you (your emotions/duty) until your carcass is dry and then she'll let you blow away in the wind.
I don't think there is no hope but it's painfully obvious that the dynamic that HAS to change in your R with your W is still present today and that is her perceived control over you. If you can change that dynamic, the same one that I think did severe damage to your M in the first place, then I think you can begin to see if there is something real to build a new future on.
HH, I know you are already working towards these goals but I really think you need to once again look at your marriage BEFORE the affair and start to understand that as you originally suspected, your W was looking for a way out. She THOUGHT you gave her that but is still hanging around. Once you remove your "helping" her from the equation, and she still hangs around, THEN you can start to rebuild. If you remove your "helping", or rather her control over you, and she sees no more value in you or the R, well then...
I feel like I am not being very positive but reading some of those first posts made me not like your W very much right now. Sorry for that. I know sometimes you may not want to hear that. I'm sure she has great qualities but as I recently posted, often we only see the dark side of the "spouses" on this board and it's her dark side I am reacting to today.
Okay HH....I've been away from posting mode on the boards for a little while but I have been following your sitch pretty closely. I can't say anymore than what GH and Amy and Kaydeekay have told you, but I'm gonna at least back them up on this one.
First and foremost, GH is absolutely correct. The dynamic that MUST change in your R is that you have to stop being her doormat....and one of the ways that you must acheive that is to forgive yourself for your indiscretion. I don't think you've done that and that's why you find yourself constantly catering to the whims of your W. Stop. What you did was wrong....yes. I did the same thing in my R as well and I felt like sh*t to say the least for a long time. The fact is, it happened and you came back to your W. I don't know the subsequent history of what happened, but I know speaking for myself, I spend two years attempting to rebuild what I had torn down. And I thought I had things sewed up for the most part....until my W met OM. At the beginning of this ordeal, I blamed myself quite a bit until I realized that I couldn't changed what happened and I couldn't continue feeling guilty. My W made a choice to involve herself with someone else, just as I had. Did my A cause her A? Not sure. Do I care? Not really because right now, all of that is irrelevent. What is relevant is what I am going to do to save my marriage for the future...
So, please, give up the martyr attitude and, well, grow a pair when it comes to your W. Honestly, she doesn't respect you and until you learn to get that respect, she'll continue walking over you.
The fact of the matter is, and this is something you have to come to terms with, demanding respect may very well indeed end your marriage, simply because it sounds to me (from reading your description of her) as though your W is used to getting her way. I don't know what life was like with you two before this mess, but if she was anything like she is now, you may have a problem.
The best thing for you to do, is to respect yourself, stand your ground when it comes to her tirades and demands and see where the chips fall.
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
My W used to tell me this all the time, that I am dense and blind in that way.<shrug>
But of course, that drew a tirade of choice name calling and venom that I haven't witnessed in quite some time. But again, all I had to do was say NO, mean NO, and stand my ground without getting angry. I think her inability to engage me in a fight or to elicit a tirade from me pisses her off more than anything. My C said that the more I detach from her emotionally, the more she will try to "hook" me back into what is familiar territory, either through anger or through flirting/niceties. I don't know, I just know that her emotions are all over the board and the only way I can reasonably expect some certainty in her behavior is if I "serve" her, as in, be her servant.