So yesterday I had a real conversation with my W about saving our marriage -- I think the first such conversation in 7 months. I think part of what enabled the conversation to happen is that I intentionally sustained direct eye contact much longer than I usually do. Not staring, but eye contact that seeks an emotional connection.
"Do you want to tell me something?" she asked. I talked about wanting to save our marriage, using our energy to do that rather than divorce mediation. She has the idea that she will continue to have a relationship with me after a divorce, and I kept pointing out that when people love each other they work out the problems because they love each other, that this is the "for worse" part. She wondered why I stopped asking about what was going on in her life. I said just seeing and being with her is emotionally painful and being focused on the events in her life is not what I am most interested in -- though I want to know everything there -- but what I do want to focus on is how to work out our issues together, using the time we have had separate lives as a source of discovery so we can have a better marriage.
She kept saying she had been consistent is closing the door but I think she began to hear me standing up for our marriage in a way she had not anticipated nor heard the same way before.
I assert a conviction that we can do this and we do not need to divorce...I believe in us doing this, strongly. I think she is taken aback by that because I am not fitting the scenario in her head about how I am supposed to be acting.
The conversation felt real and perhaps moved her a bit to re-think and re-assess if her "consistent" path is the right one for her. It felt like we had an emotional connection in the conversation.
I don't expect this is as larger than it is, but hope won a little bit yesterday, and perhaps step by step, stone by stone, we can build a bridge to each other, slowly, care-fully.
So today we had another real conversation but she still wants to go ahead with divorce mediation. I told her that we each had everything inside each of us to work this out, to have a better marriage.
Perhaps she heard that but she continues to refuse to budge.
I felt sad when we were talking and after she left.
It is very hard for me to share this, because as a man it is not what is supposed to be, but my W and I haven't had sex often in recent years, and I can't say our sex life has been great over the years of our marriage. It does seem to me that this is a major part of what she has given up on, and what she doesn't talk about...nor do I.
It is as if neither of us know how to deal with it.
Friends tell me to go date other woman and let her know, so she may find me more attractive and interesting, instead of "just waiting" for her as I GAL. But I suspect it is the sexual satisfaction that may be the problem we don't talk about. I have the feeling I can't sexually please her, the feeling of being evaluated, and I know that I don't know enough about how to do certain sexual things that a woman often likes.
Perhaps it is too late to cross that chasm now, since we are living apart. If we could do that, we could likely resolve any other issue between us, at least that's how it appears to me.
All this suddenly seems so huge and daunting and overwhelming to me right now...reconnecting would need to be not just emotional but sexual, and I don't know how that could possibly happen.
Wow! This is the first time i've seen your post so I may not have all the info needed. But Your words about the issues with intimacy struck me as very brave, humble, honest and compassionate. I could be way way off, but I see hope in your sitch. For two reasons.
Although Issues of intimacy are not something that has been a problem in my M for the most part, I hear a lot about it from my friends, male and female and You are NOT alone.
When My HMLC refers to how great it was/is when we are together, this seems to be both a curse and a blessing. I fear I won't find a lover as good as H elsewhere, and that is a huge incentive for me to work things out, I sort of hate admitting that but it's true. It also helps the romantic side of me, the sensual side. IF I ever get into a new R and the man is not into it much, if there is a huge contrast with what I've had, it'll be a dealbreaker I fear. I mean, satisfying relations are NOT essential to some Ms, but they are pretty much essential to feeling romantic, I think. Maybe not when we're 80, but then I think good memories kick in and there's still a twinkle in the eye.
I kind of don't know what category great sex is in, if we end up D...but I do think familiarity and the comfort it brings, is underrated. I also believe that in my case and eventually your W's, trust will be essential to enjoyment and while I've been able to compartmentalize my M lately, allowing intimacy without solving our real issues, there will come a time when we simply MUST feel safe and secure in the M and that won't come from ML alone. I also wonder whether continuing to ML somehow convinces H we don't have other issues, and believe me, we do.
Without giving you the history, just know that I never expected this sitch to happen, but below the surface, the MLCer has their own agenda and worse, HIDDEN expectations.
Your W obviously had/has unspoken expectations, which were not met. B ut apparently you both understand this. But you didn't talk about it, and now it's sort of an elephant in the room isn't it? Were all of your expectations met of her, yourself? Isn't the core of DB philosophy that CHANGE CAN HAPPEN in our lives?? Why simply accept this state of affairs?
And don't assume all the other men out there are great in the sack. No, no no,.... I went on a "date" with a guy (no PA or ML fyi) who mentioned in passing that his XW never wanted to ML. At the evening's end, he kissed me goodnight. It was so horrible, I could not help but think, "No wonder this guys' wife never wanted sex with him, he's like a bull in a china closet" when HE TELLS ME, Unasked ..."As you can see, I love to kiss and I'm a great kisser....!!!!." My face was literally so wet I needed a tissue to dry it off and wondered whether the guy liked tasting my makeup. MY POINT is, I really really MISSED H at that moment, way way more than I knew I could.
We tend to think all things new are by definition better. But while someone new may kiss in a novel way,as I said, there is A LOT to say for familiarity and the comfort it brings. It's not all going against you in that respect.
What I miss about H is what we had in the past in AND out of bed, which included trust. I don't have that with him right now, and if I cannot ever have it again, there won't be much ML in my future with H. Your w will eventually need this with anyone she beds, if that is even close to happening now.
More important, you can learn new things, and let her wonder about them, or better yet, if the moment ever comes, show her. Seriously.
If your wife is in her forties or close to it, she may be dealing with hormonal or MLC issues and finally wants to face her fertility/sexual/romantic sides before it's too late. As I approach the years of infertility that menopause will bring, I think it will sadden me due to being infertile and I don't really even want another child...I just hate not being able to choose. So, it's an issue as a woman.
Once, I read the "Sensous Woman" while stuck waiting for a plane, I swear the book was just sitting on a chair. I knew the things in it for the most part, but must admit reading it reminded me of how much men like certain things. When I got back from the trip and experimented, it made me feel very wanted . I think women need to feel wanted and desired more than men, but I don't know. The thing you must know is YOU CAN LEARN NEW TRICKS.
Regarding your M and or D, I saw two significant things. OF ALL the issues surrounding your M or D, I feel intuitively, that if you learned to effectively communicate with her about this, it'd be the biggest change she could see, or feel. What about telling her you are "working on it" and letting her wonder what that means, or with whom? Not in a petty mean way, but a cognitively aware way that shows her you "get it".
I am on the bb because I want a happy M, not just a M, with H. I want the R to be the priority in his life, and for H to somehow repair the R's he has with our children (S20, D17--so far the most hurt, and d9,) That's what I need and want to stay Happily Married.
What does your wife Want in a happy M? And oh, btw, The 2nd thing in your favor is what her note said about loving you, always....That is no small thing. IOW, I think, if this issue were resolved, that'd be the single biggest step forward wouldn't it?
I hope and pray that at least once, the topic will be genuinely explored with you and your xw. maybe even see one of those sex t's. And though I hate saying this, since it feels disloyal, there is one other thing you should know. My H is approaching 50, and lately I can see that the need for Viagra may not be that far away...but it's not that big a deal. Why? Because it's not mandatory because H knows other things. So, you can too. Don't underrate sex. It's obviously something that counted, to your wife. good luck, j-
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
It is only my opinion but after reading through your threads there are a few things that stand out to me.
One - Your wife seems at least slightly taken aback by your assertion that you want to save your marriage. This is GREAT and I think it is a very telling thing about your marriage in general. I think assertiveness is likely a major issue in other areas of your relationship as well...
Two - It is very definitely time for you to go dark. I mean pitch black I-have-a-life-and-I-am-going-to-live-it-happily-whether-you-want-to-come-along-or-not.
Three - It is one thing to be respectful of your wife's apparent decision to divorce you but quite another to go through it showing only the sadness and the attempts to "move on".
Alex, I don't see any fire at all.
Not in her MLC (which is a blessing for YOU!) and not in your DBing (It is your FAMILY that she has wrecked. Where is the righteous indignation?).
Now perhaps you are just mild mannered people and if so, that is fine - I am not talking "War Of The Roses" here - but where the heck is the PASSION???
Thank you for your very detailed and insightful response. I will be re-reading what you wrote more than once because I seem to resonate to many points you made.
By the way, ML means "married life," I presume?
You noted that "I do think familiarity and the comfort it brings, is underrated." Bingo. She is currently well-nested in an apartment, surrounded by many rowing friends, and has a well-paying job (though it doesn't take much to trip her financial worries), so she is happy in her freedom. Yet when she visits I do sense I am almost like her visiting her father in the sense of familiarity and comfort, someone she could always count on.
"If your wife is in her forties or close to it, she may be dealing with hormonal or MLC issues and finally wants to face her fertility/sexual/romantic sides before it's too late." She is 47, and yes you are correct.
Quote: OF ALL the issues surrounding your M or D, I feel intuitively, that if you learned to effectively communicate with her about this, it'd be the biggest change she could see, or feel. What about telling her you are "working on it" and letting her wonder what that means, or with whom? Not in a petty mean way, but a cognitively aware way that shows her you "get it".
Great idea. Thank you. And I actually am working on it but I have not said that in that way.
Quote: What does your wife Want in a happy M? And oh, btw, The 2nd thing in your favor is what her note said about loving you, always....That is no small thing. IOW, I think, if this issue were resolved, that'd be the single biggest step forward wouldn't it?
She wants intimacy, emotional connection, including good sex (she's said the first two but hints at the last). She also wants me to want to travel with her, to be more curious, to have more friends of my own and a support system of my own, and she wants me engaged in what interests her, not just biding my time until some event is over. "if this issue were resolved, that'd be the single biggest step forward wouldn't it?"-- what do you mean here?
Quote: maybe even see one of those sex t's. And though I hate saying this, since it feels disloyal, there is one other thing you should know. My H is approaching 50, and lately I can see that the need for Viagra may not be that far away...but it's not that big a deal. Why? Because it's not mandatory because H knows other things. So, you can too. Don't underrate sex. It's obviously something that counted, to your wife.
Yes I am thought of sex t's and therapists and Viagra -- I am willing to do any or all. Haven't told her that though. It is that important and I will try to find a way to tell her. Very sensitive subject for us.
Yes, my assertiveness is a key. I need to reclaim that without being heard as dismissive.
Yes, I have gone dark more and more but you push that envelope with "pitch black I-have-a-life-and-I-am-going-to-live-it-happily-whether -you-want-to-come-along-or-not." I did some of that earlier but haven't quite gotten to the level you suggest. She keeps discovering things happening in my life that I didn't tell you about, from installing a new (and long overdue) toilet in the bathroom to a party for my Dad's 90th birthday and more.
Your third point about fire is on target. And that is my own internal struggle to rediscover and ressurrect my passion (FIRE). I am trying to do that by going back to where my passion had been, in my writing. I joined a small writers group to be a support system to get my fires going again but I need to do more. That's where my passion comes alive and I am reaching out to a variety of other groups to do that too. I just haven't yet caught ON FIRE but I am working it. Many years of protecting myself from being passionate as a way to survive my job situation has meant I need to remove those protective layers.
I have been passionate about our marriage and wanting to save that and come together. Passionate, not begging. But yes I am a quiet, mild mannered guy and this is hard to show my emotions in a way that works for me and communicates well. That's not a crutch, I will work on it more. Damn it!
You're a gentle soul but I think your wife is, too, so I think you are heading in the right direction with the work you are doing on yourself personally.
Evidence of too much "fire" can be found all over this board so you may be in a better position that most of us!
Just one more piece of advice, do not put any stock in the timeframes you will read about concerning MLC. Your wife has much insight into what is going on with her. Trust me on this: that is HALF the battle.
