An interesting perspective....

[grasshopper]

Ok, THIS caught my eye more than all the rest of that (sorry, not ignoring the rest, just leaving it for UD and others)...

The long and short of it, I asked her as much....do we have the money for you to do that now? Immediately she became defensive, accused me of trying to control her, etc...WTF!!?

I think you REALLY have to look hard at this dynamic because if it's like the one in my R, that actually I realized was there BEFORE the bombs fell, you need to be careful. My W used to say the same things. She is the one who does the bills and basically handles the money in the family. It is a big job and she does it VERY well. She also does not spend much money on herself EVER. She does buy things for the house and kids, but something like clothes or personal things just for her, very little of that ever happens. I actually try VERY hard to get her to spend a little on herself now and then. She does, but resists.

When it comes to ME spending money, something I have to do because of my business, etc, she usually gives me SOME amount of grief, wanting to know why I need xxx or yyy and if I can get by without it. I hardly ever just spend for spending sake so I feel justified when I do spend money.

That all said, what I noticed (with a little help from my W, the BAD kind of help) was that while I SAID I wanted her to spend money on herself, many times when she did, I got pissed (thought I did a better job of hiding it) and a lot of times asked what I though were fair, innocent questions about some recent spending SHE had done. In essence, saying "why can YOU spend money and I can't?"

To her, I was attacking her and reinforcing her belief that she should not spend on herself. To me, I was just trying to show her how I felt when SHE questioned me on my spending. What I now see it as was total P/A behavior. Instead of just being direct about how I felt when she challenged me on financial issues, something she has to right/responsibility to do since she has to do all the worrying about our money, I just lashed out at her at the WORST time. It really caused a problem for a long time until I figured out that I was doing this. It was not unlike when I realized that even though I SAID I wanted W to go out and have fun, I acted like an a-hole when she did. My actions did not match my words.

Just be careful, Rob, that you are not being P/A about this money issue. Don't "allow" her to get the tattoos only to be negative about it later.

Just some thoughts. Probably too specific, but it's what came to mind.

GH

[Underdog]

OY, Rob! GH, thanks for your thoughts here because I think they bear worth repeating and discussing.

Rob--Great thoughts on considering how her ED affects you and your children. You're very knowledgeable on the subject, and I commend you for being willing to work through some of the issues that are prevalent in those who have them. One of my dearest friends back in VA suffers from ED, and I know how despairing things can be.

And since you brought it up, you also realize that she's going to have to want to fix herself--that no actions or thoughts on your side of the line are going to force her or will her to do that. You can encourage, but it can't be your idea or it's not going to matter in the long run.

My friend hasn't had any issues that I know of in quite some time, but she has shared with me periodically that she finds herself feeling the way she did when she became bulimic and immediately schedules herself an appt with her C. She's also got 2 daughters and she doesn't want them to see her past as a means of coping in a very negative society.

That being said, I don't know if your M is going to survive without her being willing to start really addressing how her issues affect you, your girls and your M. But for now, what I'm hearing is that you don't want to give up on her and your M. No matter what you ultimately decide, Rob, it's going to be okay. You're absolutely right that they DO affect everyone around her, and the time may come where you're forced to play a hand in order to salvage yourself and the girls too.

Okay, Rob... I saw what GH posted to you here and I really hope you go back and read his words carefully. I think he's got some great feedback for you.

Step back for a moment... and see if you can't see that money isn't the issue here--it's resentment. You're both keeping score and using your own decisions to justify and defend your own positions while attacking another. Money is just the topic you enter to keep engaged in this unproductive dance.

Mine wasn't money, but the use of free time, and the dance went exactly the same way with the same outcome every stinking time. It only changed when I was willing to put forth an effort into seeing how my reactions were contributing to the dynamics of this dance before I could completely turn this around.

For example, Mr. W. and I used to barter and battle for free time. We'd do each other's bidding and then start attacking the other to make him/her feel guilty for going fishing/going to concerts and then holding it against them the next time we agreed to the terms. It left us both very bitter and unwilling to give honestly to each other.

So, one of my early goals was to speak authentically to him. If he asked me to rearrange my schedule so that he could play golf with his buddies, I forced myself to answer the question honestly. While we weren't living together and working on our M, I didn't feel I was in the position to speak up and say, "If you do that, will you make time for me so we can spend time together?" So I was literally forced to make a decision whether or not I wanted to give in to his request--knowing I had the power but weighing the consequences for being a biatch.

Once I decided to start giving him the freedom to play golf while I watched the girls, I gave up any claims to being resentful for agreeing to it. And I worked hard at it. He wasn't cognizant of my strategy, so it took him awhile to see that I wasn't engaging him in a struggle for that free time (and it also resolved some of the big P/A issues we clearly had).

Slowly but surely, he started granting my requests for schedule renegotiation. In the early days, he'd say no--because it felt good denying me something that I wanted. But I suppose somewhere along the line he started realizing that I was more than willing to give him what he needed without questioning him and he started returning the favor.

I'm happy to report that we are BOTH very willing to give this to each other now. But it took months of continued progress on my part before I ever saw him move off the square in another direction, Rob.

Warning: next dialoge will be considered a whack! However, I'm pointing this out to you now because I don't agree... You said:

So, that's a long story to illustrate my point. I feel that while my communication skills can be lacking, I do try and be less judgemental and more specific.

Reality:

Fast forward to this week. Yesterday she announces she wants to get another tattoo (sixth one in a year) at a cost of about $100. Now, I'm not against tattoos in general (I have two myself) but in some strange way for her its a sufperficial way to make herself feel "good" about herself and, well, I just caught holy for spending $50.

The long and short of it, I asked her as much....do we have the money for you to do that now? Immediately she became defensive, accused me of trying to control her, etc...WTF!!?

Yes, this was a value judgment on your part, and I'm afraid it came out as such in your communications with her. You defended not collecting the $50 reimbursement fee and then questioned her desire for a tattoo--because you feel it's a worthless expenditure designed to make her feel better about herself.

She felt attacked because it was verbalized as such, Rob. And I'm afraid that I do agree with GH that it further exacerbates your tendency to react in a P/A fashion.

Knowing that money is YOUR trigger for a very unpleasant dynamic, what can you do to 1) avoid it; 2) plan for it; 3) work around it?

Can you agree to assigning fun money each month and then agreeing to not offering an opinion on how that money is spent?

To summarize here: Money is not the issue here, Rob. It's the vehicle you and your W use to get at each other. Stop it. Immediately. Because it's keeping you both stuck in that hideous resentment building mode.

As far as positive reinforcement goes, why not let that go to the back burner for the time being? You've got some more important stuff to deal with that I feel is maybe getting in the way for you to be able to praise her authentically. IOW, I think it might come across as sarcasm because you're feeling so down about how you communicate right now. HOWEVER, I will say that if you do catch her doing something right and it does please you, speak up immediately.

I think you can teach her how to communicate specifically with you, Rob... but it's probably going to require you going first and doing it consistently for quite awhile before you see her initiating in a way that is very noticeable. You may have to ask questions and to lead her to that type of communication with you...

Big hugs,

Betsey

[PArob]

Okay...thank you again for both of your perspectives and I really can say how and/or why my comments regarding the money issue may be perceived that way. To be fair to myself GH, I agree that in the early days before the bomb, my W never spent much on herself, basically on the house and kids depsite my insistence otherwise. Now, to be fair, when she did spend money on herself, I never considered it an issue nor, at least from memory, did I ever do the P/A thing with regard to it. Even in the most recent past when she has spent quite a deal of money on herself buying clothes, shoes, sandals, things that she liked, I did not consider it an issue and, again, would encourage her to buy these things. To me, it just was not an issue....in many ways it was the time thing that was a trigger. Not money.

With regard to the sitch that I mentioned, I guess what really got me going was that I was berated for spending money that we had initially set aside anyway for this concert gig, money that was to be spent on both of us. Her choice not to go was another factor. When she gave me grief about it, her reasoning was because we needed money for the beach. Okay. I understand that and told her that I was sorry that I hadn't gotten her perspective on it prior to giving it away. I understood. point taken....but now its okay for her to spend that money on this? Maybe you're right, maybe its my issue to deal with, but I'm failing to see what was wrong here. I don't consider it a worthless expenditure. She likes it, that's fine and I won't stop her...I merely questioned, based upon her insistence that beach money was short, whether we had the extra money to do that at this point. Maybe I need another whack?

For example, Mr. W. and I used to barter and battle for free time. We'd do each other's bidding and then start attacking the other to make him/her feel guilty for going fishing/going to concerts and then holding it against them the next time we agreed to the terms. It left us both very bitter and unwilling to give honestly to each other.

Yes, i can clearly see this dynamic in the context of my old R.....however, I have been less prone to doing such as of late. When I offer something, I try do it after examining whether I am really okay with doing it. I'm not saying that I've eliminated P/A from all communications, but I do see it as an ongoing issue.

Now, let me examine something else that you posted that I reallly do believe is another issue.

Step back for a moment... and see if you can't see that money isn't the issue here--it's resentment. You're both keeping score and using your own decisions to justify and defend your own positions while attacking another. Money is just the topic you enter to keep engaged in this unproductive dance.

To a large extent, I can see this being a problem with both of us right now and you're right. The real underlying issues aren't the money, its both of our innate desire to be "right" and the resentment building as a result of P/A tendencies on BOTH of our parts. So yes, I can see that being a leader in this regard will hopefully help to smooth our communications and I truly hope that both of you keep posting so as to help me identify how I can engage in productive communication. In this regard, thank you so much UD because I've read your post several times and am printing it out for future reference.

Best,
Rob

[PArob]

There are times when I just sit and think and today is no excpetion. Something that has been really bothering me is this. My W, just like many of the other WAW's on here, had experienced the intense emotion of what they considered either to be love or a strong attraction to someone other than us. For some us, and GH you're included in this, our W's have expressed that desire to hold on to the M and try to work through the issues, but continue to hold onto that romantic attraction to the OP. Typically, this involves a period of depression and/or withdrawal, which many of us see as backslides in the advancement of the R, but in reality, it seems to be the natural progression of things.

Here's something though that is particularly troublesome in my case. Just as anyone else, my W has had to process those emotions and feelings, and has had a hard time doing that because, well whether its her personality or genetic disposition, she was more akin to internalize the emotions and her coping mechanism is centered around food, or lack thereof. The major problem is, she just isn't able to articulate and cope with feelings.

So, here I am today....wondering what it is that I need to do to make things right. If this were a normal course of events, I would say that utilizing DB skills and building attraction between the couple would be the perfect way to go, but in my instance I can't even say if that's right. Its so hard to just understand what to do. I know that if she were to go, she probably wouldn't be happy, if she stays, she's giving up on the perception of wanting something different. In the meantime, she's committing slow suicide. How can I stop this endless loop??

Its very frustrating and today is really no exception...although thanks to the kindness of those here yesterday, I am in a much better place today. I am really coming to terms with the idea that my W needs me to be there for her, but not to have expectations for her to be there for me at this point. She just isn't in that place yet and hopefully, with enough positive influence....she can be one day.

[grasshopper]

Ok, Rob, here's what I am thinking. In your W' case, beyond the normal issues of depression and maybe some substance abuse (mainly alcohol) that often afflict the WAS, your W is dealing with a severe eating disorder made worse I would guess by this sitch. In turn you are faced with that complicating factor.

Normally, I (and obviously UD) would suggest that more time and patience is needed from you. That may be the case, but this ED is throwing a BIG monkey wrench into things because I guess you feel that standing by, just being patient and waiting her out, you are contributing to her declining health and maybe death down the road.

I think I am WAY out of my league in terms of rectifying DB with what to do in the case of an ED. I know you were reading a lot and visiting boards about the ED and what to do. What did they say to do? Is it something that can be rolled into DB or your overall R strategy or was it a lot of confrontation? I really think you need to find a way to put your W's health at the forefront of all this and like UD said (I think it was her) allow the R stuff to fade. Do what the ED folks say to do to the best of your ability FIRST before considering the DB ramifications.

I know it's hard because I would assume people with the kind of EDs your W has resent you for trying to help in the best of situations, and your marriage, pardon me for saying so, is not that. So now, you, the "quasi-husband/lover" has to try to use your leverage, which is dramatically undermined by the state of your marriage, to try to get her to save herself, or maybe even save her on your own. Monumental task. I'm sure it feels terrible.

What I can tell you Rob is that I have seen you struggle but in the end, make the right call most of the time. I am sure you will do so this time. I really feel for you and this post was not to try to make you feel worse about your sitch, just my attempt to summarize it and let you know that I understand, even though I don't really know what to tell you to do.

Keep posting and as usual, I know there are MANY people here who care about you that will try to help.

GH

[PArob]

GH, this is why I love you....and I mean that in the most platonic way possible....you have the knack for pretty much summing up what my jumbled thoughts are trying to get across.

Normally, I (and obviously UD) would suggest that more time and patience is needed from you. That may be the case, but this ED is throwing a BIG monkey wrench into things because I guess you feel that standing by, just being patient and waiting her out, you are contributing to her declining health and maybe death down the road.

This is my most obvious conflict....yes, under normal circumstances, pateience and time is needed, along with a huge helping of understanding. I get that and,under normal circumstances, it wouldn't be an issue. However, the more patience and acceptance I exhibit, the less likely she will be to get help, and the more likely she will be brought under the "spell" of her disorder. Add to that, while she is currently healthy, physically (this was verified by a doctor's visit two weeks ago), there is only so much that your body can take. Okay, so putting it into perspective, its not unlike dealing with an alcholic WAS.

The dilemma is, it is highly unlikely that she will "come to her senses" and just go into treatment for the heck of it. Tough love may work to an extent, but again, the wrinkle here is that she will be forced to do something (i.e, get help) that she really doesn't want to do just to appease someone else. Or, in all likelihood, if I threaten to leave and follow through, in her mind she may believe that she was right in not wanting to be with me because I couldn't stick by her through the hard times.

I think I am WAY out of my league in terms of rectifying DB with what to do in the case of an ED. I know you were reading a lot and visiting boards about the ED and what to do. What did they say to do? Is it something that can be rolled into DB or your overall R strategy or was it a lot of confrontation? I really think you need to find a way to put your W's health at the forefront of all this and like UD said (I think it was her) allow the R stuff to fade. Do what the ED folks say to do to the best of your ability FIRST before considering the DB ramifications.

Interestingly enough, in one of the forums that I belong to that is ED specific, one of the members there suggested to another that he visit a website geared towards helping spouses deal with infidelity! There is a certain amount of irony in that. But, and you allude to this in your next paragraph.....the ability for me to leverage is SERIOUSLY undermined by the state of my marriage. I'm an analytical guy and my job requires me to weigh certain risks and outcomes on a daily basis. Putting everything together, I have a slight amount of leverage, but nowhere near as much as I might need to pull this off. And that is the rub, so to speak.....many of the people involved have a slight edge because their marriage, for all intents and purposes, is more stable.

However, and probably one of the most saddest trends I've run across in reading those forums, is that a good deal of the spouses usually end up separating. Now, I don't usually fall into the trap of getting caught up in percentages, especially since there is a good many marriages that survive EDs, but that tends to put a hole in ones gut at first blush.

At any rate, if I can pass along any wisdom to anyone reading this post regarding your sitchs, it is this. The principles of compassionate detachment and letting go are truly universal in terms of dealing with hard issues such as infidelity, alcoholism and ED's. That must say something about those principles in general....that is, until you attain it, you will not find true "nirvana".

What I can tell you Rob is that I have seen you struggle but in the end, make the right call most of the time. I am sure you will do so this time. I really feel for you and this post was not to try to make you feel worse about your sitch, just my attempt to summarize it and let you know that I understand, even though I don't really know what to tell you to do

As usual GH, your input is always welcome and I appreciate your time and understanding. Before posting yesterday, I was a mess for a time, but today, i've come to accept and understand my role in this, previously and going forward. Thanks you so much for the encouragement.

[grasshopper]

GH, this is why I love you....and I mean that in the most platonic way possible....

Um...sure... first Lance (sorry Amy, LAST boy-bander gone wrong refrence, I swear) now you, lol.

Seriously, happy I could help somehow. Stay strong my friend.

GH

[runningoutoftime]

EDs are a form of OCD. You might consider contacting UCLA's (University of California, Los Angeles) OCD and anxiety department to see if they have any information on this. Other universities (perhaps something local to you) may have information as well. I have a child with OCD and I had mild anorexia as a teenager. Also, a lot of OCDers have food issues. A good treatment for EDs may be Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, but I'm not sure how effective it is for EDs since I haven't researched that. (CBT is extremely effective for OCD, but not as helpful for Tourettes... my guess is it could be effective for EDs...).

It definitely sounds to me like your wife is in MLC. I have a couple of friends going through this right now and all of them are like spoiled 16-year-olds (and getting tattoos or piercings!!!!), also their kids are missing much needed attention. I think this is probably really common for MLC.

From all I've read and people I've spoken with locally who have gone through this, the only thing you can do with people in MLC is "give them a lot of rope." It's something they have to work through on their own. I don't think there's a whole lot you can do to change things. Also, sadly, you may not be able to do much about the ED as well. Unfortunately, the person with the ED has to want to help themselves (Therapy like CBT only works if the person is a willing participant). I'm guessing that all you can do is have her hospitalized if she becomes too thin and ill.

Focus on yourself and your childen. Particularly the kids. I wish I had more helpful advice. Just try to stay positive. Perhaps being a positive role model may eventually have impact.

[PArob]

running,

Thank you for checking in. I've come to recognize that there are many issues that my W is dealing with all at one time and that in reality, there is not a damn thing I can do about it. One day, we will either both work together to patch this or not. It is what it is. As a person who loves her very much, I am obviously concerned about her ED, but I know that I didn't cause it and I cannot fix it. She has to want that help herself. My major issue with it at this point is the impact upon my children, when that becomes even more of an issue, I will take the steps that require me to protect them. Until then, I will do my best to soldier on.

A good treatment for EDs may be Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, but I'm not sure how effective it is for EDs since I haven't researched that.

I recently read a book regarding ED's that mentioned this....but I had a little trouble buying into the author's theory on what lies behind the ED and thus, really didn't buy into the treatment. However, I continue to research and hopefully, on day, together we can find the therapy that she needs to feel better about herself.

Thanks again for checking in, I appreciate all input.