I have to hand it to you, Cobra, your reponse darn near yanked me out of 'girly,' mode and I ALMOST went and got my 2 x 4.
I actually quite relieved you didn’t pull out that 2x4 since such a reaction would have been on the heels of a far too easy effort on my part. So good thing, I may have had to notch down my respect for you. But just to reassure you, you know I love it when you call me “sweetie!”
So I'll just say... you missed it. There are ways to go about what you are doing in a far kinder, gentler way.... if you lose the 'tude and such almighty LOW expectations of your wife.
Ok, so I haven’t quite elevated myself to the level of Corri enlightenment, but I’m working towards it. So to put me on the right path, give me a specific of how you think a kinder, gentler approach should be handled concerning some of the issues I mentioned.
Sometimes the amazing disdain you hold for her takes my breath. I'm not sure if you intend that, but it sure is how it comes across.
Yup. She senses this as much as I sense her disdain for me. It comes and goes like everything else in a relationship.
I have to say that using a word such as "disdain" towards your spouse really takes me aback. Disdain in my perception means that you look down on someone...you don't view them as your equal...much less good enough. Do you truly mean that you view her with disdain?
That's not a good thing for either you or your W. Oh BTW, I would have used that word myself in my description of how you come across in regards to your W at times too.
Quote: 1. What kind of person was your Ex? A nice person that tried to do things right, that for whatever reason just didn't click with you, or understand your past and how to deal with it, or was he an abusive jerk?
No, I do not think my xH is an abusive man out-of-the-box. I think that how he viewed his needs, coupled with his sense of entitlement, and empathy for others not being one of his strongest points, made my situation for him very frustrating to deal with. It is a frustrating situation for ANYONE to deal with. There were times when he dealt with it better than others.
Quote: 2. When there was intimacy, were you able to O, and if so.. was it an enjoyable thing, or did it somehow take you back to your experiences as a teenager?
My xH was the first man I ever had an O with, and the first time took a very long, long time. I had a very, very difficult time 'relaxing' during sex.
Sex always took me back to my experience and in order to engage in the act, I would emotionally disconnect from it. My xH was not... uh... too emotionally vulnerable himself, so you can see how the mix could make it into a pretty physcial act.
Quote: Did you avoid sexual types of situations due to the memories, or did your past play a part in how things turned out for the marriage?
Because xH and I started fight about sex so much, I began to avoid it more and more... though I'd say our 'norm' was once a week. That wasn't enough for him, so the atmosphere FOR sex to me never felt safe nor cherishing, nor connected. It sure didn't make me feel up to the task of facing my demons, that's for sure. I'm not saying it was always like that, but over the years it certainly erroded to that.
I had regular O's with the xH, and in terms of technique, he certainly pleasured me. I don't think he ever understood that for me, the physical pleasure was not where the angst was... he used to say to me all the time, 'why would not want to do something that feels so good? You enjoy it... I don't get it.'
He never understood that the physical sensations of sex were the very things that panicked me emotionally.
The most difficult part of being abused, for me, was NOT the physical violations. It was my inability to control my body, it was the emotional distress, the ungodly deep shame and guilt, and the emotional manipulation that went along with it. The reason WHY abuse occurs and works is because the very nature of it is emotional gorilla warfare. The verbal abuse that went along with it was so much more damaging and lasting... the anger... and to endure that over and over and over again...
It was, at one time, far easier for me to have sex with a stranger, than it was to have intimate sex with someone I cared about.
I would also say that if this has occured in your W's background, it does make sense to me that she would WANT to avoid an O. It is just wayyyyy too much control to lose, for during abuse situations, you are so concentrated on surviving it. The fact that she even let you try this with her says to me that she loves you very much.
There were times when xH and I had sex that I was overcome with such amazing feelings of rage, it just blew me away. So I'd just 'check out' mentally, rather than act on the rage. My shrink helped me understand that my rage was a defense mechanism, and I was fighting IT not my H. But try to keep that thought in your head when you experience it...
Anyway, he taught me how to deal with it, and it took me a very long time.
I have to run. I'll write more later. Ask any questions...
Quote: Ok, so I haven’t quite elevated myself to the level of Corri enlightenment, but I’m working towards it.
I don't like zingers, Cobra. They hurt. Polite sarcasm is the worst. If I sent one your way with my comments, I apologize. But I'd appreciate it if you'd tell me when I do it and what I've said, so I know, and then that way I can be more careful in the future.
Quote: So to put me on the right path, give me a specific of how you think a kinder, gentler approach should be handled concerning some of the issues I mentioned.
Why don't you give it a go. Here. Me and the gals will help you out, and at least for my part, I promise to be gentle with you.
Hi Corri, Just wanted to stop in and say thanks for the support over on Chrome's thread. Also, I wanted to tell you that I really commend you for finding your way through the muck and being able to both find your girly self and find some compassion/understanding for your mother. It's a damn hard thing to let go of the fantasy of what mom should be. I still crave that every day of my life. My mom is so fragile that when I was going through some rough stuff, I couldn't tell her because I knew *she* would be devastated and I couldn't face having to comfort her for what I was going through. I always thought if I could just find one person in my life to believe in me...and much like you, I realized recently that *I* had to be that person for myself. What a concept!
I also want to say that you are just radiating joy when you speak of your new girliness! I'm so happy you have found her/you. I also carried a lot of anger towards women, I hated anything they did that made them appear weak/frivolous/needy because it made me think that men would think *I* was also that way and I didn't want to be seen that way. I also figured out that I was jealous of women who could be friendly or flirty and not have to worry about the repurcussions. Kwis? I felt like I was always trying to live my life so that no one could ever come back and say "She was asking for it." and I hated the women who perpetuated that idea.
Don't want to get too deep before I go to bed so I'll stop here. Just wanted to say thanks for sharing all that you have shared...and a big girly hug to you Bear
The voyage of discovery is not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes.
--Marcel Proust
Corri, Thanks for the answers, they are very helpful! And a huge thank you to be willing to dig down to that deep hard place all to help a stranger on the internet. I really appreciate the help and insight.
Now to one more question... If your XH could have done anything to HELP you through your situation... what would he have done? If you could choose a way for him to react and handle himself when it came to the sexual agruments and the whole "his needs vs. her needs" stuff, how would you have him react and conduct himself? What would make for that perfect blend of helping you to face and overcome your demons, and staying sane with his own needs? Does that make sense?
We have argued for years over the whole sex thing... it's honestly the only thing we fight about in our marriage. She has gotten to the point where she claims that she understands that it is important to me and so she is willing to let me have sex with her once a week, but she also admits that she totally emotionally detaches herself when it happens. In some ways it kind of creeps me out that she does this... that she HAS to do this.. but at the same time I know she is TRYING to do things for me, all that she can. I know Chrome and his wife have arguments... Chrome wanting his sex kitten and his wife feeling like there is no way she can ever live up to that image or that expectation.. so even when she tries little things, she feels she is not good enough. So I want to make sure that I don't come across that way... looking as though I am demanding her to become something that she just cant right now. She says that if I feel that sex is THAT important, then I need to be happy with what she can do, and not push for more. What she can do right now is show up and zone out, but she is willing to do that since I feel sex in marriage is important.
Where does that put me? Kind of in a rough spot since, like I said.. I don't know really what I am dealing with here as I am not allowed to inguire of the past. Did your XH know about what happened to you? How much of that whole ordeal did you share with him? I struggle everyday with not trying to demand too much of my wife... not wanting to lower her self esteem anymore than it is already lowered by demanding or expecting more than she can give. If this is all she can do right now, then I need to love her and be ok with that. But at the same time, when I can see her zone out emotionally, I feel like a creep who is taking advantage of a situation. and I don't like that.
So I am trying to establish boundaries.. I am trying to be honest with her about my needs as a human being.. I am trying to make it clear what I feel is appropriate and inappropriate in loving relationships.. but I am also not wanting to come across as abusive, or inconsiderate.. And I want to show her how much I do love her. She is an amazing woman, one that I never want to be without..
So do all the things we regularly discuss on this board still apply to people with a past like yours? You know.. establishing boundaries, open communication about needs, all the "I will not live in a sexless marriage" stuff, or due to the fragileness of situation and the deep hurt and memories that past abuses can bring, do we need to take a different approach for these types of situations?
I don't know if I am making any kind of sense here.. but again I ask.. If your XH could have done something different... to help you get to where you are today with the marriage still intact, what would he have done?
I would love to see my wife come to grips with everything, but I would hate to see the thing that pushes her to face her demons be our divorce. I want her to eventually come to grips with it all, but with me still at her side. But since I know so little, it is hard for me to really figure out what approach to take, or what activities to avoid, and how to keep both of us happy and healthy.
I don't like zingers, Cobra. They hurt. Polite sarcasm is the worst. If I sent one your way with my comments, I apologize. But I'd appreciate it if you'd tell me when I do it and what I've said, so I know, and then that way I can be more careful in the future.
Well this is interesting to me that you felt this was a “zinger.” I guess I can see how you can take it that way, but what I was intending was more along the lines of male “joshing” around, acknowledging that you truly have “evolved” to a higher level than myself. Think of it more like bowing to the big dog but in an off-handed way. I think difference in how you interpreted my comment and how men might interpret it is more a product of male/female socialization (did any men take my comment as offensive?)
At any rate, it is minor, not worthy of making and issue out of and I’m sorry if I hurt or insulted you. BUTTTT, just for the sake of learning more about each other and the sexes, do you know that your statement to me (asking that I tell you when you’ve sent me a zinger so that you can be more careful) feels like distancing? It is a subtle wall and one which men would not put up, especially if they were “bonding” (not saying that is what we were doing).
Defining these understood limits of propriety and respect is a woman thing, IMO. I think women tend to run scared with strangers and such walls give comfort so they feel safe to bond. Men do not have such insecurity and bond by encroaching on and testing each other, just like boys who wrestle. If a man were to make the same request as yours, he might very likely be typecast as a “girly man.”
Yeah, yeah, I know, now I'm minimizing your hurt. Sorry. OK, enough of the tangent….
Why don't you give it a go. Here. Me and the gals will help you out, and at least for my part, I promise to be gentle with you.
OK. I’ll start a new thread. Where would you like to start?
Well, quite honestly, I wasn't sure how to take it. And if I were in old-Corri mode, I may not haven given it a second thought... and since we lack body language, tone and facial expression... I thought, well... if this IS a zinger... I'll bring it up, deal with it... if it was nothing more than joshing, he'll tell me and we can let it go. If it WAS a zinger, then we can deal with it and let it go.
So. It's gone.
Quote: Defining these understood limits of propriety and respect is a woman thing, IMO.
Interesting. I'd just call it communicating.
Quote: I think women tend to run scared with strangers and such walls give comfort so they feel safe to bond.
Sweety, I don't think I have EVER run scared of you or anyone else. If anything, I have tended to opt for way more aggression than needed, and I think everyone here would nod their head in agreement.
For example. When I go overboard on you... you come roaring back at me. When I go overboard on HD, he says 'ouch,' or he teases me about my pointy witch shoes... When I go overboard on one of the HD ladies, they say..."Corri, I hear you, but knock it off, you don't have to be so harsh."
So. Given our past communication style, I really was trying not to come roaring back at you, but to just try to clear up a potential misunderstanding. That may be a female thing, but in my experience, far better to take the time to realize a non-issue than to assume.... kwis?
Quote: Men do not have such insecurity and bond by encroaching on and testing each other, just like boys who wrestle. If a man were to make the same request as yours, he might very likely be typecast as a “girly man.”
Yeah... but you need to remember. I'm not a man, even if I've come across that way in my communication. I'm correcting my ways... or trying to. Hence your perplextion and confusion.
I'm not changing back to the old Corri just so you can feel better about how YOU communicate with other men. You are dealing with a woman, not a man. Pay attention. And stop putting down the female gender because we DON'T communicate like guys do. Of course we don't. We weren't meant to.
And no, you are not minimizing my hurt. You are minimizing my gender... (reference your 'girly' man comment. There is nothing wrong with a man being vulnerable and gentle at times.) So I'm not so sure that I'm the one not feeling safe here....
Oh, btw. Blackfoot would also say to me "Corri, I hear you, but you don't have to be so harsh." Couched in some kind of light banter.
And then if I came back and apologized to him for being harsh, he'd say to me, "were you being harsh? Really? I hadn't noticed." Backed up with a small chuckle or LOL if I persisted in my apology.
He makes his point and lets me save face. I respect that.
And I would never call Blackfoot a girly man. At least not put in the negative context that you have.
Quote: Ok, so I haven’t quite elevated myself to the level of Corri enlightenment, but I’m working towards it.
I don't like zingers, Cobra. They hurt.
Zingers hurt? Really? Your supposed to eat them, not throw them. Personally I prefer them over twinkies or cupcakes, BUT only with a glass of ice cold milk.
Corri did the same thing here that I did when HP commented on my thread about being perfect. I took it as a poke instead of a compliment. Personalized. Cobra the biggest thing I see you need to work on is pyschoanalzing your W. Every F here has remarked to you about it. You have a lot of knowledge about it, use it to empower yourself, and understand others fear's etc, instead of using it to overpower.
If your W does something specific that you find unacceptable, Keep it simple... Just tell her to STOP. There are a thousand ways to say NO, and Stop. Exert your authority. You dont have to explain to her why she needs to stop. Thats logicalling. Thats justifying and makes it a should, which is a big freaking hole in your boundaries. There is no SHOULD in boundaries. OCD is mostly about fear and lack of control. The more boundaries you give her the less she will have need for the soothing of her OCD. Begause she is so high energy and you are not, the more reason for your boundaries to be many and done as efficiently as possible. That will demonstrate strong to her. It will cause lots of conflict. IF you want her to need you, then stop expecting her to lose -and trying to cure her of- her emotionality. Just remove its affect on you.
And stop putting down the female gender because we DON'T communicate like guys do. Of course we don't. We weren't meant to.