Oh yea... boy have YOU nailed it. I do empathize with my mother, and I've also recognized that she gives to me as much empathy as she is able. For her to really truly empathize with me and to validate the horrors of it all would mean that she would have to OWN her part in it... on top of all the pain she has experienced in her own life, I think it is just way too much for one person to handle. I've watched her try and do it.
God, I know how I continue to flog myself to this day for not being fast enough to prevent my toddler son from taking a tumble down the stairs... I don't even WANT to imagine what it must be like to be in her shoes.
My dear, dear shrink helped me learn how to interact with her... and when I first started respectfully and firmly standing up to her... boy howdy... that didn't go over well, let me tell you. It was always MY job to make her feel better about what kind of mother she was... to let her off the hook... to forgive her. And if I didn't do a good enough job, then I got... 'I did the best I could.'
But I held firm and things are much better.
I also want to say that there are things I admire greatly about my mother. Yes, she has flaws. We all do. I know first-hand what it is like to get the heck out of dodge as fast as you can from the type of environment she came from. I also got into counseling relatively quickly. She did not. It wasn't socially as acceptable then as it is now, and sexual abuse certainly WAS NOT addressed.
And, for all the things that she is or is not... she also taught me that I am the one who always has power over my life, I always have a choice. She has apologized to me, heartfelt, for the mess she made, and she encouraged me to seek out counseling myself, to hang with it, to heal.
She is a beautiful lady, smart, funny, intelligent, and she has survived some pretty horrific things in her life as well.
Yes, I was very angry with my mother. But AGAIN, I could not heal, could not move forward, could not stop suffering, until I let it go. Letting anger go does not mean that I am OK with what happened and whatever her role in my life was... it simply means I am no longer willing to carry around anger and suffer for it in response to all that happened.
There is just TOO MUCH going on in this thread. Thanks for the observation about how my 1st marriage may likely have been the source of much of my angst. I've actually been saying that to my W for years, but she insists that the only way I would have put up with W number one was because of some "deep wound" in my FOO. Whatever.
Happy Belated Birthday. I have been remiss in telling you that. Bad Corri, Bad Corri. Please forgive me.
Anyway, on to my point, for you knew I'd have one... hate to dissapoint. Ahem.
Quote: I've actually been saying that to my W for years, but she insists that the only way I would have put up with W number one was because of some "deep wound" in my FOO.
Have you made the very obvious and simple point that you are, in fact, DIVORCED from your first W, and while you may have 'put up,' for a time -- as she would call it (others may call it exhausting all avenues for success BEFORE they quit) -- you did not PUT UP forever? Seems like a very significant point to me.
Sometimes I see you and I as opposite sides of the same coin. My childhood was so filled with upheaval that all I am accustomed to doing is dealing with drama, tension and stress. I likely create it just so I know how to operate. Bring along peace and happiness and I just don't know what to do with myself.
You, on the other hand, knew nothing but relative calm and happiness. Drama, stress and tension come along, and you probably don't know quite how to deal with it, as you never really had to learn it (though I am sure you got some DANDY lessons from M #1). I would think that when the harshness of life presents itself to you, it likely hurts you far deeper than most, for you know it doesn't have to be that way, you even know how it actually feels to be loved and happy.
Sometimes I think your wife does what she does because she, too, is used to drama, criticism, disapointment, etc. She creates what she knows, for then she knows how to BE. She's a divorce lawyer, for cripes sakes... her daily modis operendi is arguing, competing... WINNING... proving, drama, hurt, angst... I believe that was the environment she grew up in... no wonder she is so good at what she does. That isn't a slam, either. Just makes sense.
Not to say she is all bad, either. It's just what she knows, or has learned, somewhere along the way.
I'm going through that in my life, right now. Like I said, I'm not angry any more, I'm not 'escaping,' I'm not surviving, I'm not resenting, I'm not fixing, I'm not being a victim. It darn near scares the heck out of me because I almost don't know WHAT to do with myself.
I don't get the same satisfaction from my job anymore that I used to 'cuz I was always fixing someone's problem and soaking up the praise I got for swooping in and saving the day... I don't want to do that anymore. It's like flippin' pulling teeth to me.
And gasp upon the most amazing gasp... I don't have an answer... not only do I not have an answer, I don't have a flippin' fcking CLUE. I'm trying out this girly girl thing and liking it very much. Wish I could get paid for it.
In short, I am a strange visitor in a strange land, one that appears to NOT be at war with someone or something.
Isn't this a hoot? I think it is. Blows my fcking mind. "War's over boys, time to go home." Really? What's a soldier to do now?
Stress out. Enter perimenopause. Find a new job, I guess... but the only job I really know is trained soldier... and I don't want to BE that anymore... go back to school? To do what?
I'm left, for now, with figuring out who this new me is, and what she might like, what she doesn't like, and what she wants to be now that she is all grown up.
Somedays, I am tempted just to head back into the war zone, for at least I KNOW how to operate there, kwis? But then I think, nah... I'm too good at it... time to go be good at something else... but what?
So... if you have any suggestions, I'm open. I really don't know where to start... and I flippin' LOVE it.
You know, I can always count on your for answers to my own dilemmas, but, when you ask me for suggestions, I draw a blank. Understand that I am in the same job I was in straight out of law school. OMG...next June will be my 20th year here. So when I hear about people with relative flexibility in their future career, I'm not just a little bit jealous, I'm a lot bit of uncomprehending. It's a whole 'nother language you're speaking there, missy.
But I'll let it rattle around in my brain a bit. Personally, I think you'd make a great counselor, or perhaps a motivational speaker (although I've never heard your voice).
Can't think of a way to make money being a girly-girl, though.
What one woman may crave another may call abuse (and rightly so)
Instead of differences from women to women, about what they want...Think about it like this.
What a particular woman may crave from HER man, she will definitely consider abuse from any man she has revoked her emotional wellbeing/safety too. Even if he is her H.
Do you think HP would complain about Mr.Pot pinning her arms down, or sundry other aggressive acts? My guess is HP was revisiting an old memory.
You are not an abuser. Hope your having fun with pushing the envelope. Sounds like your W is. hmm here is something else for you to consider. These tentative motions...sticking points... they exist in you. Not her. Your perceptions are what is holding you back.
Your building your confidance, by courageously going out of your comfort zones, and thats awesome.
Sometimes when you have a small realization, you can decide to make a huge jump, skip a bunch of the baby steps...
Sounds like you are having continued success though.
ed. to say...
these perceptions are also known as self limiting beliefs. Ideas in our head that hold us back from fullfilling our potential.
Ive had many... and undoubtable still do. Look back at your past and see how you kept yourself from getting what you wanted. Thats the easiest way I have found for seeing that it was me, and then making the huge jumps in changing behaviors.
Ruhh rohh, here it comes…. You used that line on CeMar once but he didn’t bite. You sure you haven’t done this “girly” thing before?
You don't have to learn these things in childhood. It can happen at ANY age. It can happen on the playground, it can happen from a careless criticism from a teacher, it can happen in college... it can happen during childbirth... it can happen.
Agreed. I know that my college girlfriend cheating on me tore me up completely. That probably had as great an impact on me as my FOO.
Cobra... your wife has picked up on fear. We ALL fear life. We fear our perception of separation. I'm here, you're there, and what the heck are YOU going to do with YOUR end of it that might HURT me?
I understand this fear in her and have told her that I am not her father, I have not left her, I am sticking with her and our family and she needs to stop thinking of me in those terms. She also needs to stop punishing me like I was her dad (and she has gotten better at this).
You don't know that about your W, nor does she know that about you. We all long for that.... that loyalty that goes beyond words. The one person, above all others, that we can TRUST absolutely.
Yes, this would be nice…
I've come to find that **I** am that person to trust, for in trusting myself, I give another the courage and the faith to trust. It all sounds so flippin' esoteric and altruistic. But if you can BE what it is you seek in another, they will reflect that... I've come to find, in my field study.... that men are not the only ones to 'lead.' Anyone can lead... it is just that men and women have a different way of 'leading.'
I’m not sure I totally agree with this. One question I want to ask you is whether you think your would still be where you are now (in a balanced state without anger) were you still married to your exH? I can’t help but think the divorce gave you a great opening to step around those issues that kept your resentment alive.
Your wife fears. You know this. We all do. Respect it. Don't minimize it. Throw out that gddam, mtherfcking book of should be's... and BE. Have the courage to say... "I don't know. Can you give me some time to think about it?" Have the courage to be weak, to let her prop you up, so you can find courage to take another step and pick it up again. Have the courage to look her in the eye and say "I don't know what to do with you when you are like this." Let her see your sadness, but not necessarily your despondency. If you become despondant, she will, too.
I actually believe the one holding on to “should be’s” is her (I know she will refute this). I have no problem saying I don’t know something, but if I do know it, I also have no problem saying so. But I do not like to act in an over confident manner just to boost my ego. Now she will say the opposite, and because of her issues, I can understand that. Her perception of my arrogance is in part based on her level of confidence. Arrogance, like so many other qualities, is relative to the person making the evaluation and so there are no absolutes. To my boss and others at work, I am very humble and in need of a little more assertiveness. My wife cannot see this.
If you love her, tell her. If you aren't sure, figure it out. She knows you are waffling.
I think this is one of my biggest obstacles. Over the years I have lost a lot of attraction to her. She gained some weight long ago from the babies and has been nothing less than defiant to the idea of losing weight of getting into shape. She does not like being a “girly” girl in the least, does not wear makeup, and only dresses decently when going to work. So the Dr. Laura type of action on her part is missing and she has no intention of picking up that rope. Consequently, I have lost some attraction to her.
OWN the fact that you are human, and given that state, you are likely to make mistakes.
This is tough for me because she is OCD and ADD. Misplacing her things, making mistakes, forgetting appointments, losing track of time all become frustrations when she comes to me for help. Since situations never seem to improve, I just detach, yell back, tell her not to ask me for help over the phone, and generally try to set up boundaries that protect me from her chaos. All of this affects the attraction too.
If I screw up, I don’t like it but it doesn’t bother my self esteem. If she screws up, I feel she takes it a lot more personally (hence all the commotion when things go wrong).
But given your intelligence, and some time, you will figure it out. And so will she... if you have FAITH in her. That's what she needs. Your faith. And when I say faith, I am not talking about the faith to 'get it.' I'm talking about the faith you put in someone that says, "you are human, just like me. Thank God I hold you to no higher standard than I hold myself." And you can give each other a big dopey grin over it.
What I read in this is a ratcheting down of expectations, letting go of hopes that the chaos will someday come under control and accepting that this is how life is and will be with my wife. So I suppose the faith you refer to is her faith in me that I accept these faults in her without blaming her or reacting to the chaos – her chaos. To me there is a fine line there between accepting normal human frailties and shortcomings versus enabling bad habits and poor self discipline. The difference is that the former does not involve repeated problems over the same issue, whereas the latter is due to a reluctance to seek out advice, make changes and admit that there is a problem. In other words, I feel that if she wanted to change, she could.
[In fact she has. The counselor told her some time back to stop calling me at work to fix a problem with the PC, and for her to learn the PC better and figure things out on her own. She has gotten better at this, though she still asks me questions, often the same questions, without wanting to learn the how or why to prevent future problems. It told have just last week that this is a no win situation for me and I do not want to do it. It used to be that she got back by calling a PC service and paying some ridiculous amount. Now that she pays her own bills, she has decided to learn on her own and not charge her own account. Funny how that works.]
The repeated, month after month blow ups over self induced stress because of disorganization is the difference between these two approaches (normal shortcomings versus poor habits). Things are better now than they were, and she goes in and out of trying, but her pace is very slow because she overloads herself with so many projects (that’s the OCD). For me to accept this stress and chaos in my life starts to impose on my values. That is why I have been trying to draw a line.
If I go on simple faith, I can say I have complete confidence that life with her will be chaotic till the day I die, that she will forever over-commit, lose things, drop projects half way completed, etc. I know her stress from feeling overwhelmed will continue and that I will continue to hear about it. I have complete faith that this is her. I just don’t like it. I really need to read the OCD book I bought.
Ruhh rohh, here it comes…. You used that line on CeMar once but he didn’t bite. You sure you haven’t done this “girly” thing before?
CeMar doesn't bite on anything, or haven't you noticed. No offense to you CeMar, I really like you.
I have to hand it to you, Cobra, your reponse darn near yanked me out of 'girly,' mode and I ALMOST went and got my 2 x 4. But then I decided a potential splinter from whomping you upside the head with it would do nothing for my lovely hands. And I might chip a nail <shudder>.
So I'll just say... you missed it. There are ways to go about what you are doing in a far kinder, gentler way.... if you lose the 'tude and such almighty LOW expectations of your wife. Sometimes the amazing disdain you hold for her takes my breath. I'm not sure if you intend that, but it sure is how it comes across.
Quote: One question I want to ask you is whether you think your would still be where you are now (in a balanced state without anger) were you still married to your exH? I can’t help but think the divorce gave you a great opening to step around those issues that kept your resentment alive.
I wouldn't say I'm balanced, but I AM without anger. Got lots and lots and lots of things to still figure out, my man, lots.
As for the anger and resentment and would I still be married question, let me put it this way. Were I still angry and resentful, I'd still be married, for I'd still be trying to fix, still be competing, still be trying to 'win.' I didn't make my decision in anger or resentment.
He told me, point blank, in bed one night that he could not give me what I wanted from him, and he was unwilling to change in order to attempt to do so. But, in so saying, he would never divorce me, either.
It was one of the most honest exchanges we ever had. And once I was willing to accept that, once I got over my grief and my anger and my resentment, I had to decide if what I wanted was negotiable. It wasn't. I either had to give up what I held as important, or get out.
Corri, I am coming into this conversation late, how messed up this whole thing is.. but at the same time.. potentially close to home.. which is really making me wonder about a few things.
I know that my wife's life growing up was insanely messed up. I grew up in a religious home with 2 parents who loved each other and my sister was, quite honestly, one of my best friends.. still are (although she lives on the other side of the country). My wife on the other hand... well, all I hear about is disfunction, chaos and a big mess. I can't even begin and the few times that my wife actually opens up about some little thing, I have to pull my jaw off the floor for how messed up it is. I know she lived with her mom until she was 14 and finally left at that age, got sick of the crap and began foraging her own life on her own, been in contact with her mother only a few times since then... I have never met her or spoken to her. Same with her Dad, he was never around, has attempted to make contact with her now that she is older, but she will not have anything to do with him. I also know there was a step dad and 2 brothers, but she never talks about the step dad and both brothers are in prison. She has asked that I not talk about her past, inquire of her past, or try to delve into her past. She says it is in her past and so there is nothing she can do about it. And so she goes on, attempting to live her "regular, stable" life.
I have always assumed there has been some past abuse, but that is my opinion, as my wife is very strict in the whole "not bringing up the past". This also may be why she flat out refuses to have anything to do with counselors, or psychologists. Will not go, not under ANY reason. I have voiced the opinion on this board that a friend gave to me one time that there is something that happened to her in her past.. something so dark, that she will not go near it. It is easier to repress whatever that is and try to move on, then deal with whatever "it" is. I have read your story now and seen what "it" was for you, and "it" was very disturbing. Makes me wonder all the more what my dear wife has had to endure that she is just not ready to face.
I have also noticed that as I have endured some of my trials, many times you respond to me very much like my wife does... you seem to think through things much like she does, again, making me wonder all the more if you have similar pasts.
I have mentioned before that I am seeing some success in my whole scheduled sex experiment. We are at least doing things on a regular basis. But even with this schedule, I know she does not get into it. I know she is giving the go ahead for me, as she wants me to be happy and satisfied, but I do want her to enjoy it more as well. She says she is enjoying it as much as she can right now (which she'll admit is not much at all) , but that's all she can do right now, and I can't expect more than she can give. And so, I have done just that, I am trying to accept that by simply letting it happen once a week, she is doing all that she can do, and doing it because she loves me.. The ideal sex may not be there, but it's a start and its leaps and bounds beyond where we have been for years!
About 3 weeks back, we were doing things (and you'll see just how ignorant I really am of sex). For the first time in 7 years, she actually allowed me to manually stimulate her. That has been an "off limits" place for, like I said.. 7 years. I was totally excited that she would actually allow this. I had no idea what I was doing, but since she was allowing it, I went for it. After a few minutes of this stimulation, suddenly she JERKED forward, breathed hard, lurched around rather uncontrollably for a second or too and then fell back onto the bed. I was in shock. I assumed that she may have just O'd, but in our entire marriage, this had only happened once before, when we were newlyweds. It was right after this had happened that she cut of all contact "down there". So it happened again 3 weeks ago, and I was totally excited. I hoped that if she really had had an O, that it would somehow "Awaken her sexuality".. you can see how little I know here... And I eagerly looked forward to the next Thursday where I could try that again. But the next Thursday when I tried.. once again there area was totally off limits. She said that what I did to her, she didn't like. She didn't like the sensation, she didn't like the rush of feeling.... she said it took her to a bad place.. that she didn't want to go to again. So she asked me not to do that again, and to not try in other ways to give her the same reaction. She says she doesn't like sex, and despises the O (all 2 now, that she has had in 8 years), but she allows me to do it because she knows it is important to me to express myself on a regular basis.
My questions to you Corri, are (and I hope under the circumstances it is not too personal, but being that this is the SSM board, I can get your take)
1. What kind of person was your Ex? A nice person that tried to do things right, that for whatever reason just didn't click with you, or understand your past and how to deal with it, or was he an abusive jerk?
2. When there was intimacy, were you able to O, and if so.. was it an enjoyable thing, or did it somehow take you back to your experiences as a teenager? Did you avoid sexual types of situations due to the memories, or did your past play a part in how things turned out for the marriage?
I have a lot of questions about my wife's past and how it affects her now, and since I don't know what that past was, I am just left to speculate.. to try to figure out what may have happened and what not to do to accidently set her off. After reading your story and knowing what little I do, I really know wonder how similar your journey's are.
Jesus, man. I've started to respond, and I stop, I go to start again, and I stop.
I think my thread might be getting close to getting locked, if the 10 page rule holds. So if it does, I'll start a second one for you.
I will reply, but, uhm... give me some time. Your questions require me to go back and think on some things deeply that I don't really like to revisit. It's cool, I can do it, no problem. Just takes a bit.
Enter perimenopause. 
My guess is HP was revisiting an old memory.
Sounds like your W is. 