Girl Help

[Cobra]

Corri,

But it goes a bit deeper than that. When you set yourself up as a victim, you give away your power of choice. Meaning... 'if you would only change and be what you were, then **I** don't have to change, I don't have to make any painful decisions.'

It is a dodge. It is the FEAR of power, the FEAR of choice, the FEAR of freedom that imprisons you. I'm criticizing no one for this, because I did it for many, many years myself. It is a hard thing to learn, and even a harder thing to work through.

It is the ultimate power play, simply because we FEAR being Who We Are. (And Who, exactly, is that, by the way? I don't know... ask my spouse... they control the R... I'm just trying to keep so and so happy and I can't even do THAT right.") What if they don't like Who We Are? Gasp. Worse... what if I SCREW IT UP and someone SEES? Double gasp.

Whoa! This is really powerful stuff and it expresses exactly what I see in my wife’s deflections. She screams for power and control (like I do) but she absolutely hates to catch any blame for any thing that might go wrong. It is truly a damn if you do damn if you don’t conundrum she puts herself in. I have focused on it being aversion to blame from something in her FOO but I haven’t been able to find anything specific. She keep telling me her parents gave her support and adoration. Yet she is as she is. Why?

If I go with the parentification theory, that she emotionally was abandoned at an early age, then it makes sense that the world and her family was a scary place. I understand that emotional growth stops at the age these traumas occur, then that childhood fear carries over into today and her aversion to blame, yet wanting responsibility to feel accepted as an adult…..

Thanks again. You have been aaaawwwsssome today!!!

[Corri]

Cobra, dear sweet, man....

You don't have to learn these things in childhood. It can happen at ANY age. It can happen on the playground, it can happen from a careless criticism from a teacher, it can happen in college... it can happen during childbirth... it can happen.

Somewhere along the way, we pick up an expectation and run with it. I've been thinking of HD of late... he says his upbringing was normal, he loved his parent, his parents loved him, etc., etc. He is at a loss to find what in his childhood may have caused his angst.

I personally don't believe he learned it there. He dropped a gem recently. HD was in an abusive R in his first marriage. That woman scared the ever living HE!! out of him. He learned things, consciously or unconsciously... but we assume, as adults, since we can rationalize through things... that of course THAT wouldn't be the crux of my problems... I say.. really? REALLY? Especially after you became a dad, with precious beings you were willing to protect at all costs? You don't think you picked up a few defense mechanisms along the way? Really?

Cobra... your wife has picked up on fear. We ALL fear life. We fear our perception of separation. I'm here, you're there, and what the heck are YOU going to do with YOUR end of it that might HURT me?

I have a best friend. She's been my friend for well over 25 years. She knows me better than anyone on the planet. One thing I know about her is this... if she and I were standing on the edge of the abyss, and one of us had to jump to save the other... it would be me to jump. I know this. And so does she. We accept that. And I also have a feeling, that given that moment, she would also surprise the he!! out of me. Just a gut feeling.

You don't know that about your W, nor does she know that about you. We all long for that.... that loyalty that goes beyond words. The one person, above all others, that we can TRUST absolutely.

I've come to find that **I** am that person to trust, for in trusting myself, I give another the courage and the faith to trust. It all sounds so flippin' esoteric and altruistic. But if you can BE what it is you seek in another, they will reflect that... I've come to find, in my field study.... that men are not the only ones to 'lead.' Anyone can lead... it is just that men and women have a different way of 'leading.'

Your wife fears. You know this. We all do. Respect it. Don't minimize it. Throw out that gddam, mtherfcking book of should be's... and BE. Have the courage to say... "I don't know. Can you give me some time to think about it?" Have the courage to be weak, to let her prop you up, so you can find courage to take another step and pick it up again. Have the courage to look her in the eye and say "I don't know what to do with you when you are like this." Let her see your sadness, but not necessarily your despondency. If you become despondant, she will, too.

When she threatens you with D... your answer is spot on. "Fine, make a decision, but quit threatening me." It puts the weight of her words back on her.

If you love her, tell her. If you aren't sure, figure it out. She knows you are waffling.

Say what you feel, but do it with respect, not anger. She will apppreciate the honesty. Just AS YOU WOULD. For anyone can handle darn near anything, if they KNOW they are getting the truth. And we know. At at a gut level, we know.

Give yourself a break or two.

Hold her hand, just because.

OWN the fact that you are human, and given that state, you are likely to make mistakes. But given your intelligence, and some time, you will figure it out. And so will she... if you have FAITH in her. That's what she needs. Your faith. And when I say faith, I am not talking about the faith to 'get it.' I'm talking about the faith you put in someone that says, "you are human, just like me. Thank God I hold you to no higher standard than I hold myself." And you can give each other a big dopey grin over it.

How awesome would it be to have the freedom to look at someone and say, 'boy, I fcked that one up, huh?' To have the faith, first and foremost that you could even say that, and faith in yourself and the other person that your head won't be removed for it.

Corri

[OG_Lou]

Re haphazard
"I finally grew up enough to stop defying my mother".....I do think the same dynamic works for men - I think there are many men out there - my H included - who are not happy being men.

Fran, I won't say I am not happy being a man because I know I am being a woman, I would have been too easy-going, and with the wrong man, as an imaginary woman, I would have been in trouble more than once. Of course, the opposite is true if everything worked towards a charmed life.

I am writing this to help you and maybe some other men and women see what I think might be at the root of some problems.

Men and people in general need to see and experience actual successes. Not seeing successes in other peoples lives first hand and long term, and not being able to buying into the process of how the other person got there, some people are overcome by the adversities of everyday living. Also some people have a rough environment that represses some improvements the individual attempts to make. I hear it takes only one person screwing up to bring down or limit growth in twenty good people.

How many good role models has your H been exposed to in his life that have successes in areas you might see your H weak at?

I also have herd recently that men will not do some growth activities until they see successes many times over, where women or other people think/see a man as not caring or not able to change.

I really think you did hate women because you hated your mum.
I had a similar thought, more along the lines Corri might have felt her mother should have known what was going on.
Lou

[cinemanymph]

GGB,

I suppose it is a relatively fine line between being an alpha manly man and being an abuser.

Can you expand on this idea?

[Corri]

I will share a chilling revelation.

My mother was abused by her father. When my mother was 12, her mother was killed in a csr accident. My mother was there... they were hit head on by two teenage boys driving drunk. My mother was thrown from the car, which saved her life.

My grandmother was pinned between the seat and the steering wheel... she was a vegtable for two weeks before she finally died. The boys were caught and taken to trial. My mother had to testify on the witness stand. Because my mother was a child, her testimony was held as irrelevent, and the boys were set free.

Not long after, my grandfather began abusing my mother. On TOP of that, he married her best friend, before she had turned 18, and legally, her best friend became her guardian.

My mother left home before she turned 18.

This story just can't get any sicker, can it?

But it does.

In college, my brother had become so out of control, I finally told her what had happened all those years. I don't remember her first response, but I do remember not feeling good about it.

She hauled us all into family counseling, and the stupid, sick azz counsler somehow expected us to talk about it all in a GROUP setting. Yea. Right.

So... years later... okay... when I was two months out from graduating college, my mother was in a car accident that put her in a coma for six weeks... she missed my college graduation. Afterwards... I went home to help her recover... one night we were laying in bed watching t.v. and she brings IT up....

We talk about it for awhile. She wanted to know nitty-gritty detail... I give up as much as I was willing to talk about at the time... and she says to me... well, that wasn't so bad, compared to what happened to me... and then she tells me HER story.

Then she proceeds to tell me that I shouldn't hate my brother. He didn't have a dad like I had a mother. Oh.

THEN she tells me... one night, she saw my brother go into my room, and she didn't feel right about it... it made her feel strange... but she just shurgged off the feeling. Didn't go to check.

And I layed there, stunned. What about this convo is supposed to make me feel better? Just exactly WHAT THE FCK I am supposed to take from THIS??!! YOU went through the exact same thing as ME and you IGNORED YOUR INSTINCT? Well, thanks for the convo, I feel so much better now.

Oh... well, yess... right. She was a single mom, doing the best she could. Of course.

Loathing? Hate? Guilt? I told my dad, years later. All he could say was... jesus christ.

I told my sister-in-law after she was calling me incessantly about some problems in her marriage, and my brother's behavior. My brother went balistic on me. In the middle of his tirade I looked him dead square in the eye and told him that if I ever hear that he had EVER touched one HAIR on his kids' heads, I would bury him alive. In court.

And I made absolutely sure his wife knew all the signs, and what to look for in behaviors from her children... she loves my brother, and to give him his due, he has put his life back together, the best way he knows how. But he will never forget that I am watching.... and there are absolutely no second chances.

Corri

[GonnaGoBlind]

Not much too it, Just an observation that the HD ladies here seem to desire a man who is aggressive sexually speaking. I've seen it too in MrsGGB recently in that she responds when I am aggressive with her. It seems to me that an abuser is displaying a similar sexual aggressiveness but somehow can't control the aggression to direct it to the proper person with the proper intensity. What one woman may crave another may call abuse (and rightly so). That's all I meant.

I might add, that being sexually aggressive with MrsGGB does not come naturally, so it is taking some getting used to, and at times feels almost over the line (biting, hair pulling type things).

[Corri]

Hap:

I really think you did hate women because you hated your mum. You hated her for losing your Dad, for being powerless to get him back, for being reliant on his checks which never came, for not being able to keep everything going on her own, for needing a man so much you had to put up with horrible step-dads. I think you probably buried that one deep because she really was/is all you had.

I have no idea where to put your revelation. None. I've never had anyone put it to me quite like that before. I do remember my shrink saying to me once in counseling, "Corri, what if I said to you that your parents were incapable of loving you, that they never did? How would that make you feel?"

I remember hearing those words, and trying to respond... and I fell asleep in the session. He woke me up, about 1/2 hour into our session and called it a day.

Many years later he revisited that notion and told me that I had serious issues of... anger... with my parents. Until I could let go of it, and just deal with them as the flawed humans that they were, I would always behave with them in unhealthy ways.

I did deal with my dad. My mother is the last great frontier. I hope. I hope to God. But I am sure that I have made progress. I have not cut the cord completely.... but I can accept what you have said without defense. Just a terrible numbness.

Corri

[cinemanymph]

Your grandfather was a sick, sick man. Only a filthy pervert would replace his wife with his young daughter. And your mother with her lame excuses for your brother's absolutely abhorrent behavior. Corri, you seem like the only one in your family tree with a lick 'o sense. The children in your family are lucky to have you.

[Corri]

GGB:

I MUST put your mind at ease, given the nature of recent discussions. You ARE NOT borderline abusive.

Let me give you an absolute CLEAR indiacaion of abuse. When a woman tells you to stop, no, that hurts, please, no, stop... and you don't... you are headed into dangerous terrirtory. If tears of FRIGHT are involved, you are headed into dangerous territory. If a woman FIGHTS you, and you ignore her... you are headed into dangerous territory.

There is nothing WRONG with being a bit aggressive, especially if she asks it of you. If you check in with her, ask her if its okay... etc., etc... and you are proceeding with approval... fine... but don't go so far as to HURT someone.

A body is designed to respond in a certain ways, regardless of what the mind wishes. In states of extreme fright, a body can respond in ways that mimic excitment just to protect itself.

You are a sensitive man. You are AWARE of your wife, and more importantly, of your actions. Your actual RELUCTANCE into such waters indicates your sensitivity. Do not allow arousal to overcome it. You will know. You will know.

You are not an abuser, GGB. Sometimes sex CAN get a bit bawdy. Fine. If it is happening to a point that makes YOU uncomfortable, stop it.

You have control. Sex can't happen without YOU, kwis?

Corri

[haphazard]

Corri it is harrowing to read about your life and you are just awesome. There are weird parallels between the way your mother treated you and the way my mum was, although nothing as serious as sexual abuse in the case. That is why I could see that you do have that anger towards her because I have a lot of anger towards my mother for failing to be a strong enough person and for showing me the possibility of being that weak sap of a person. I am left speechless by the conversation your mother had with you about the abuse. Un-fukking-believable. Nowhere near as bad, but when I split up with long term BF I went back to the house we'd shared to get my stuff and my mum came with me, OW was in the house. As we left, my mum remarked "she's slim isn't she?"

Thing is your mum was very damaged by what happened to her and she probably never felt like anyone had listened or understood. There she was listening to your story hearing what your brother did and it must have made her feel like sh!t. She just didn't have the emotional wherewithal to deal with it, all she could do was minimise it, pretend it wasn't as bad, make an excuse for your brother. Jesus I just hope I never do a thing like that to my DD.

{{{{hugs}}}}


Fran