Quote: When an HD partner says that their LD partner has all the power and control over the sex life... how is that a dominion (power) play on the part of the HD?
For one thing, it sets the HD partner up as the victim, which may force the LD partner to treat them differently. It places all blame for the lousy sex life onto the back of the LD partner.
Quote: the experience of true power begins when you realize that nothing anyone does is ever because of YOU. Everyone does what they do because of them
I think you are absolutely right, but this is something a person has to internalize (barring narcissism) as a response to everything everyone else is doing. Also admission that I don't have any power over anything anyone else does. I can certainly influence, but the final decision lies with the recipient of that influence. Another slant on the giving up power to get power paradigm.
Quote: When an HD partner says that their LD partner has all the power and control over the sex life... how is that a dominion (power) play on the part of the HD?
Indicating that the LD spouse does not live up to their former glory or to the current HD expectations goes for the emotional jugular, confirming the LD stance that there is fundamentally something wrong. I'm just playing with this concept but, to submit to HD is the ultimate in being out of control and the LD partner is exerting control by short circuiting it. Outwardly the HD partner is angry and feeling rejected, but inwardly is relieved. I hypothesize that, in some respects, that the HD partner is just as terrified of intimacy as the LD partner. Control is the power play here.
Does an HD partner really want an insatiable spouse? It seems to me a valid question to ponder. In your wildest dreams, what kind of sexual response would your partner have? Do you think you could keep up with those demands IRL?
I think Jenny said in her thread, to dream up the best partner and then apply those attributes to yourself. Methinks I'll be startin' there.
I don't mind the sun sometime
The images it shows
I can taste you on my lips
And smell you in my clothes
Cinnamon and Sugar
And softly spoken lies
You never know just how you look
Through someone elses eyes
BHS-"Pepper"
Corri, Don't know what to say. The story was harrowing.
It brings up many knee jerk "I hate men" feelings in me, for sure. Although I was never abused as a child, I can certainly relate to the feeling of being violated by a man. I'm sure that most women have had that lovely experience. Having your arms pinned down, etc. Wtf is up with mankind that they act like this? Fcukin animals.
Ah, but I digress.
Thank you for sharing your story. It makes the girly girl transformation all the more riveting and unbelievable!
Corri I didn't KNOW I resented and disrespected women to the extent that I did, until I decided to TRY actually being what I call 'girly girl.' And once I truly tried it... everything started falling into place This is a good to know. I can treat BB more ‘girly’ and see if my actions influence her to feel more ‘girly.’
I know first hand how damaging it can be to you and everyone in your life when you set your expectations so low, for you will allow things to happen that never should... all because... 'this isn't as bad as that.' Like Corri said, compared to what some of us have lived through, some current situations were not as bad as some previous events in our life. And maybe we (the poster here on SSM) even caused through neglecting to do something, not stopping someone else from doing something, or actually doing something improper/wrong our self.
Corri I am glad you illuminated/expanded/explained the differences between how your situation with anger and respect, especially for yourself and for others to respect you, sometimes you have to stand your ground and not allow the disrespect to continue, even if it takes leaving.
Blackfoot Briefly to HD, Lou and Cobra. A woman deeply wants to, surrender to a man, whether she will admit or is aware of it.
You have to have a strong sense of requiring respect, so when she steps over the line, you are ready and immediately point it out and require it. I started doing this (requiring respect) long before I understood many things in the books I was starting to read or before posting here. It took a long time and before I made any progress in the R, but requiring respect is something that I think is a basic necessity before much good happens to repair the R..
Similar to the steps in the book “Cesar’s Way.” With a dog that attacks people, a trainer won’t make any progress if s/he only tries to intervene when the dog is in it’s attack mode. Also little progress is made when the trainer corrects a dog only after the dog is in a barking mode. To be effective, an unruly dog needs to be dealt with at the first sign of excitement or disrespect.
I know R’s are not ‘owner/pet’ structured relationships. I am saying to myself and HD others?, allowing the situation to advance to a disrespectful level because ‘it isn’t that bad’ is causing us/OS more harm than we realize.
The testing and lashing out is not ‘at you‘, its them ‘afraid of you‘.. I will add it is also an indication that BB sees me as not supporting her sometimes. It’s a fear of being on her own in a big troubled world.
BF, I don’t understand why BB would be afraid of me in the first thing that came to my mind. I am not ever going to hit her or tell her she is dumb/stupid/fat/ugly/her jeans make her butt look fat, so what are you talking about when you say afraid?
Me leaving? Maybe yes but not likely. Me losing interest in her? Maybe yes. Me getting involved in my work too much? I did that and see where I went wrong.
If you mean afraid as in me not taking on the leadership role you speak of, I can see/understand that.
Quote: If you mean afraid as in me not taking on the leadership role you speak of, I can see/understand that.
That could very well be it. But as a man, I could see how one would begin to resent having to 'lead,' when inside he may think..."why do I have to have all the answers? What if I just don't KNOW?"
That can be an extreme amount of pressure for someone. I feel it as a single mom. Some of the best advice I ever got from someone once was... 'when in doubt, at least ACT like you know what you are doing.' That doesn't mean you aren't open to ideas, or some correction or modification... but the whole notion of 'acting as if,' sets a postive mind frame that, while right now I don't know... I have FAITH and respect myself enough that I will figure it out.
It brings courage to those around you.
And I think it is a lovely idea to start treating your W as more of a girly girl. Quite lovely indeed. Let me know how that goes.... be gentle and consistent, firm, but loving. She is probably going to balk, and not believe you at first. Just stick with it. She may even turn on you a time or two for it, for it will be utterly foreign to her. Help her succeed. It will become its own motivation for her... and in the process, you will be learning how to lead.
Quote: When an HD partner says that their LD partner has all the power and control over the sex life... how is that a dominion (power) play on the part of the HD?
For one thing, it sets the HD partner up as the victim, which may force the LD partner to treat them differently. It places all blame for the lousy sex life onto the back of the LD partner.
I had to learn this painful dynamic in my own R. My xH gave me all the power over the R. In so doing, he controlled it. But guess what? I let him do it... so I did the whole victim thing myself. Schnarch calls that gridlock.
But it goes a bit deeper than that. When you set yourself up as a victim, you give away your power of choice. Meaning... 'if you would only change and be what you were, then **I** don't have to change, I don't have to make any painful decisions.'
It is a dodge. It is the FEAR of power, the FEAR of choice, the FEAR of freedom that imprisons you. I'm criticizing no one for this, because I did it for many, many years myself. It is a hard thing to learn, and even a harder thing to work through.
With great power comes great responsibility. We've all felt it, and quite honestly, it is a tremendous weight to carry. "Life? YOU want ME to know what to do with this LIFE thing? Are you fcking NUTS? Here... you take it!!! Let's blame you for it... let me off the hook, for cripes sakes."
It is the ultimate power play, simply because we FEAR being Who We Are. (And Who, exactly, is that, by the way? I don't know... ask my spouse... they control the R... I'm just trying to keep so and so happy and I can't even do THAT right.") What if they don't like Who We Are? Gasp. Worse... what if I SCREW IT UP and someone SEES? Double gasp.
Best thing I've ever seen someone do in that situation is fall back on his azz, laugh, give a big dopey grin and say... 'look at the silly thing **I** just did. Oh well.' Then get up, brush his azz off, and go about his business.
The definition of a best friend is not the one who comes and bails you out of jail for doing something stupid. It is the person who is sitting there with you in the cell who says to you, "boy, we just fcked up. Let's not do that one again, eh?" That's what we all want in our spouse, no?
OMG! I just got through reading your amazing thread. There are so many twists and turns and topics here my mind is spinning.
You are the living embodiment of Neitzche's words "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger"
First of all I got all fired up about the whole feminine/feminism part of your thread. Then the abuse story just had me in tears. WTG for finally standing up to him, and for pulling through all these years. And now we are talking about power and how giving it away is a way to keep it. There are so many pearls of absolute wisdom here - and like you say you were born to write.
I really think you did hate women because you hated your mum. You hated her for losing your Dad, for being powerless to get him back, for being reliant on his checks which never came, for not being able to keep everything going on her own, for needing a man so much you had to put up with horrible step-dads. I think you probably buried that one deep because she really was/is all you had.
I've always been a girly girl but I too hated women. Like being a girl, like looking like a girl, like using girlish power but never wanted to be a woman. And that manifested for me in not wanting to be a mother. Thank God I came to my senses on that one in time. When I got pregnant at the ripe old age of 38 my Dad said "what happened - I thought you were never going to have kids?" and I said "I finally grew up enough to stop defying my mother".
I do think the same dynamic works for men - I think there are many men out there - my H included - who are not happy being men. And I have often wondered what it is about me that stops me from attracting (and being attracted by) manly men. You know, the normal guys, not the Woody Allen types I seem to wind up with.
A lot of what has been said here runs counter to what I have been saying on my thread about me being the alpha rather than H. And I do have my doubts over it. Honeypot's comments have a lot of interest for me because she said she deliberately picked someone she could easily lead, and I know I did the same thing. For me I think it was a question of trust. I no longer wanted to put myself into the hands of a man. As BF has been saying to surrender to a man, BTDT got burned. So I picked one I wouldn't have to struggle with in order not to surrender. Unsatisfactory.
Like I say Corri, this thread is amazing. I'm going to cut and paste a lot of it for there are so many things worth learning by heart.
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
