Girl Help

[cinemanymph]

blackfood said:

as she works on being more herself, more female, more aware, free of her own gender 'hate', free of fear, the more honest, the more congruent she becomes with herself-- the more attractive she becomes to men. She has less fear, less insecurity, more true self confidance.... It shines out in her femininity. She can 'act' however she wants. Its the real her.

An overwhelming majority of abuse victims do not want to be attractive or emotionally available. Unattractiveness/invulnerablilty insures avoidance of some very physically, psychologically, and spiritually painful issues. blackfoot makes a very good point here:

In sexual abuse the rejection is NEVER about you. The very physiological act of becoming aroused, can trigger off her fight/flight. Think about how horrible it must be to have those two extremely disparate, but core survival mechanisms linked. Once that happens, she has no control. Personalizing the rejection is not understanding, not comprehending, not compassionate, not tender, you are not trustable... For females who have been abused, I recommed researching the link between your psoas muscle and fight/flight......

It's hard not to take rejection personally. In the case of sexual abuse, it is absolutely critical that the partner of an abuse survivor realize this.

This is not an overnight revelation for Corri, there was a LOT of steps and situations that lead to this

Just like Corri did not realize this until she could see the respect issue from the other side, many times partners do not see the invisible, albiet tiny steps thier spouses are making toward healthy respect and esteem.

A woman deeply wants to, surrender to a man, whether she will admit or is aware of it. I said this a long time ago in different words. The more fear and anger surrounds her because of past injuries, the more imperturbable, the more indifferent you have to be to the tests. You have to be absolutely TEFLON. Humor is always always helpful. Its a good way to defuse and deflect, its useful to show the attacks are not crushing you, its a way to sarcastically self deprecate, thats not unattractive. You have to have a strong sense of requiring respect, so when she steps over the line, you are ready and immediately point it out and require it. The testing and lashing out is not at you,
its them afraid of you....misplaced protection of self. Like an injured animal lashes out at those that try to 'help' it with its injuries.

This begs the question of why men stay involved with a woman who doesn't readily submit? Is it a question of compassion? Is it a question of proving virility?

Ask yourself guys... Do I have a dislike, anger, irratation at my own gender for the ugly sides of male attributes, the darkness of assertive, the abuse of strong, the requirement and weight of leadership. If you do, your not going to be radically honest. Your insecurities are going to 'idgit' her and crash.

There are so many abuses of power (or physical stature, intellectual superiority, or monitary finesse and gain that stands in for power) all around us. These abuses are perpetrated by women as well as men. Does our humanity doom us to abuses of true power? Is the presence of true power a catalyst to do what is morally correct? What acknowledgement and acceptance of abuse of power required for effective leadership in relationships?

[Corri]

Cin:

There are so many abuses of power (or physical stature, intellectual superiority, or monitary finesse and gain that stands in for power) all around us. These abuses are perpetrated by women as well as men. Does our humanity doom us to abuses of true power? Is the presence of true power a catalyst to do what is morally correct? What acknowledgement and acceptance of abuse of power required for effective leadership in relationships?

Ah, good question. But first, you must understand the true nature of power.

Power is not something that is 'taken.' Power is not something you unwillingly surrender.

Power, like love, is only something you can give away, and in so doing, YOU become more powerful.

I hear you sputtering... but, but... you can take power... think of wars, think of strong against weak...

That is not power. That is control or dominance, outright FORCE, and there is a BIG difference.

Power is awareness of self. It is courage. It is self-respect. It is awareness of choice, awareness of action and reaction, conducted with compassion, empathy, tolerance and kindness. It is firm, but not necessarily unyielding. It is consistent, but not cruel.

I know I keep going back to self, and I'm beginning to sound like some inner tantra guru Buddhist philosopher type... I don't know how else to describe it. Phhhffffttttt.....

Corri

[cinemanymph]

Corri,
You're right, true power has nothing to do with external trappings (money, physical beauty and strength, etc.) or the methods used to get it. It is an inner strength to be given away.

My question was is it in the acknowlegement and understanding of erstaz displays of power, that (weather intended or not) cause undue human suffering, a place where we can begin to experience true power?

[blackfoot]

This begs the question of why men stay involved with a woman who doesn't readily submit? Is it a question of compassion? Is it a question of proving virility?

Cine you have have just reworded Cemar, HD, and Lifers comments on the other thread.
So to flip it back....


Why do women stay with men they are unwilling to surrender too?

Why do they deny this innate desire?
Why does it have to be so hard .... and persistant?

I hear females discuss these shortcomings of their SO, to their female friends...in female code of course. They nod and commiserate. But they never admit it directly.

Why did her perspective change from the beginning of the R. He was good enough, even more desireable then, and probably in his mind and reality, had a lot less of the trappings of success and security.

Why isnt she appreciative of the good?

The specifics may be different, but the reason is going to be the same. Fear of the unknown. Pain of loss is greater the the unknown gain. For a few... the knowledge that staying and working it out together is the healthier, saner, even more secure thing to do... long term.

What difference does it make why they stay..on either account. Lets say its because they said vows. OK. Why arent they doing what works then?


those questions....were rhetorical..... and presumptous of me, on what other guys are thinking. Hopefully they will chime in.

[Corri]

Cin:

Well, that is a loaded question... and if you figure it out, you probably have the key to all of life's questions.

I guess I would first ask, what is suffering? Suffering is a perceived notion of pain, physical or emotional. What caused the pain... other, or my perception of a violation? Was the violation real or imagined? Was it intentional, or not?

All these things will flash through your mind instantaneously. Based upon previous experience, you will make conclusions before you are aware of them.

You are headed into philosophical waters, into topics on which I can give you my own opinions... but conclusive answers?

I think you are at least asking the right questions.

I think, at least for me.... the experience of true power begins when you realize that nothing anyone does is ever because of YOU. Everyone does what they do because of them. YOUR perception/POV will color your experience of the world, whether that is a happy experience or a suffering type experience.

The experiences I have had in my life are experiences. I decide how I view and continue to view those experiences. If I choose to remain angry over what happened to me, I will continue to suffer the experience... and the experience will continue to have power over me... because I GIVE it power... and this in turn makes me a more powerful martyr, makes me a more powerful, potential victim. For I am willing to suffer.

There are experiences that come along in life over which you have no control. Sh!t happens. True power comes into play when you realize... I may not be able to control THAT, but I do have complete dominion over how I choose to act and react. Suffering comes in when you give your choices away... for you have a perception of dominion by someone or something else... when you allow yourself to be dominated by another, it is a dominion play of your own, an attempt to regain something you perceive to have been taken from you... all to re-establish some notion of 'control' in your life.

So... if you get this. Tell me. When an HD partner says that their LD partner has all the power and control over the sex life... how is that a dominion (power) play on the part of the HD?

Corri

[chromosphere]

Corri,

Apologies for the late response.

I was already impressed with your strength of character, and I now see it was born from having to endure many difficulties in your life. Where many would have collapsed under the load you have had to carry, you have definitely made something of yourself, and are constantly striving to be an even better person. Much kudos to you.

"It may not be that your wife hates women... but there could be some very serious resentment issues over how she views some of her wifely 'roles.' I know a number of my girlfriends don't hate being female, per se... but they do resent the hell out of many of their 'wifely' duties."

An interesting point. On the surface, the "wifely" duties are what my W seems to enjoy most ... raising the kids, getting the house arranged like she likes it, cooking, etc. She doesn't like cleaning, but there aren't a lot of people who do. But your comments are making me wonder if perhaps the "wifely duty" thing is just a front because she is afraid to really get out in the world. The SAHM mom thing is a safe, controlled world. I know, kids can be a REAL handful, but I think everyone knows what I mean. Outside the home she has to deal with adults and adults can do things that she has NO control over. Obviously I am not very skilled at psychoanalysis so I may be way off base here.

"I think you also made a good point about your W growing up. I don't know her... just from my own experience, there is a HUGE difference between being a 'girl' and stuck in that mental framework of fantasies and entitlement issues and how things are 'supposed' to be... and being a woman."

I think that is key and ties into the earlier point. As a child your parents often take care of things behind the scenes. My W's home life was VERY structured and organized, so I can see how she might be stuck in a "supposed to be" frame of mind about her life. Unfortunately, the fact that she still lives withing spitting distance of her parents, she has never had the requisite push toward womanhood. As the Bible says, "separate from your parents and cleave to your spouse" or something like that. She has never really had to lean on me for support, which is probably one of the things that can lead to true intimacy.

"I don't know what to tell you, because there isn't anything YOU can do, per se. Hence... part of the reason for the state of your M. But you know that far better than I do."

I think the only thing I can do is be patient and hopeful. Try to be the best man/husband I can be. Don't let her rejections faze me, just plow through them.

Thank you very much for sharing your relevations and your story. I have learned quite a bit about female perspectives from it and the ensuing discussions.

Chrome

[MJontheMend]

When an HD partner says that their LD partner has all the power and control over the sex life... how is that a dominion (power) play on the part of the HD?

IMO it's a power play along the lines of one kid saying to another "You've got all the red jelly beans. That's not fair." while failing to acknowledge that they've got all the green jelly beans. Though I would say that most of the HD folk on this BB really have no consciousness of any green jelly beans and it's only natural to want some red jelly beans too.

[Corri]

Mo:

IMO it's a power play along the lines of one kid saying to another "You've got all the red jelly beans. That's not fair."

That is the perception, certainly... but HOW is it a power play by the HD spouse? What is the HD partner getting out fo the situation by making this type of play?

Corri

[Cobra]

Corri,

I think its usually some twisted way of getting control and superiority, in this case possibly a sense of moral superiority and justification for suffering in hopes the spouse will give compassion and nurturing.

[cinemanymph]

blackfoot,
My grandmother illustrates perfectly why people get stuck in their situations. She married my very handsome, life of the party grandfather against the advice of her parents/siblings and his parents. After bearing two boys, she was granted a divorce, a rarity in the 30s. It seems my grandfather was physically and verbally abusive as well as a philanderer. She raised my uncle and dad assisted by her in-laws. It was hard work but they never wanted for food, shelter, or clothing. Grandmother did not seek male companionship and still hasn't to date (she is 90+). She is deeply suspicious of marriage and was critical, unforgiving mother in law to my mother, step-mother and aunt. I suspect that she has a deep and abiding hate for women, herself included. She is unwilling/unable to see past the painful events that happened over 60 years ago. She doesn't feel empathy/compassion for anyone (herself included) because she can't see beyond her experience. Even though she is chronologically 90+, she still goes through that pain daily. It has got to be exausting to call up that ghost of pain on a every day. If her sexual desire was wrapped up in her unfortunate marriage then the only life she could have made for herself had to be based in control.

When good things happen, she doesn't seem to feel the joy. It's as if she is standing in a rainshower of good tidings and she is waterproof. It is truly sad not to be able to connect with her. I know that there isn't much time, but I've run out of ideas and have quit trying.