I have a whole lot of comments to make on this thread, but its meandered along so much I dont know where to start, and also, respectfully Corri, I dont feel comfortable discussing about you, and dissecting the specifics of the dynamic in the small part I played, since you opened up so much too me.
Im very happy for you, and am really honored for your thanks.

The risk of me sticking my foot in my mouth is too high. and isnt worth it.
As you know, Ive assisted in this particular thing a few times before, but I have no idea.... would never do it with M women-- the only way I know how.

Sooooo.
Briefly to HD, Lou and Cobra.
A woman deeply wants to, surrender to a man, whether she will admit or is aware of it. I said this a long time ago in different words. The more fear and anger surrounds her because of past injuries, the more imperturbable, the more indifferent you have to be to the tests. You have to be absolutely TEFLON. Humor is always always helpful. Its a good way to defuse and deflect, its useful to show the attacks are not crushing you, its a way to sarcastically self deprecate, thats not unattractive. You have to have a strong sense of requiring respect, so when she steps over the line, you are ready and immediately point it out and require it. The testing and lashing out is not at you,
its them afraid of you....misplaced protection of self. Like an injured animal lashes out at those that try to 'help' it with its injuries.

Pointing this out to them (logicalling) is not useful.

In sexual abuse the rejection is NEVER about you. The very physiological act of becoming aroused, can trigger off her fight/flight. Think about how horrible it must be to have those two extremely disparate, but core survival mechanisms linked. Once that happens, she has no control. Personalizing the rejection is not understanding, not comprehending, not compassionate, not tender, you are not trustable... For females who have been abused, I recommed researching the link between your psoas muscle and fight/flight......

I just broke my promise to never go into this here.
I am an uneducated nobody. These are my umprovable esperiences and beliefs.
This is too complex....


I dont remember who, or when someone posted about compassion and the importance of seeing the hurts of the other person when they are angry.
Also in your case Lou, I dont see this as being so severe, just general resentment built up over years.

There is nothing new to this realization of Corri's, that hasnt been described in MWD terms, Dr. Harleys terms or Schnarch, Deida, etc.

I see all of them as describing the exact same relationship dance, in different words. Which reminds me. I love the alpha male analogy, I often think in terms of lions or apes to describe/visualize this stuff, but I simultaneously realize its not palatable to everyone. Christians, or those that have a negative association with the archetype (symbolism) like lil pointed out to Paul (mandksdad). I dislike it because obviously not everyone can be alpha, and, the difference between us and animals is our conscious ability to re-create and redifine our reality, at will. We are beholden to biology and genes, but just cause we arent born something-- we can become much more.
I am pretty sure Stig gets blame.... I mean credit for being the first to mention this concept. It wasnt me.
I use to avoid it because it is so blithly and ignorantly tossed around by the seduction community, the very word of which implies manipulation, amoral agendas (animals are incapable of being amoral, selfish yes, that doesnt mean amoral, they are incapable of dishonesty or falsehood), scripted and false use of rapport, untill they are nothing more then actors confidant in the short term scene they are familiar with, with no true long term congruence or 'radical honesty', and assorted other completely NON alpha traits.


Ooops. started ranting. I encounter them regularly in my social circles and bartending gig. Like all diseases the organism soon builds up a resistance.

Think about what the word surrender means to you, and what it requires in order for it to occur.

If anyone thinks this means beating them down mentally or physically untill they wimper, pull your head out, stop reading, and get away from me.

Using Dr. Harleys concepts and terms, you must come out of withdrawal and go thru --even bounce in and out and in and out and in and out of conflict to get to intimacy.
IT IS FREAKING TIRESOME. especially when you are receiveing double messages, and dealing with lack of awareness even. Are you going anywhere? May as well get started. Taking a break and giving yourself space is a completely rational need and honest.
I agree with Martelo that Schnarch is really well suited for the LTR/M, in dealing with this. I believe it is especially well suited for men.
In MWD terms, you have to drop the rope (stop caring about the outcome....if your requirement pushes them to D YOU, so be it, you require it that much, it rarely will though), lovingly detach, (not angrily lash out or withdraw, zero reactivity....yeah right , but repeatedly bring the issue to the forefront-- keep it there WITHOUT apology while not engaging any LB.... ex. This is what you want BUT your not going anywhere,)



Cobra you nailed it on the head with your last post. This is not an overnight revelation for Corri, there was a LOT of steps and situations that lead to this. Reread HP's last post.
Its not impossible in a M, but it takes a great determination, to regain trust from her in your leadership abilities.

Corri has the added impetus, and emotional help in coming to these realizations, because she is in new R's. It makes it a WHOLE lot easier for her to see something when she is feeling it and being urged by her emotions to do it at the same time. the right behaviors will urge your W to feel the same.

The most valuable lesson to take from everything Corri said is ....as she works on being more herself, more female, more aware, free of her own gender 'hate', free of fear, the more honest, the more congruent she becomes with herself-- the more attractive she becomes to men. She has less fear, less insecurity, more true self confidance.... It shines out in her femininity. She can 'act' however she wants. Its the real her.

Ask yourself guys... Do I have a dislike, anger, irratation at my own gender for the ugly sides of male attributes, the darkness of assertive, the abuse of strong, the requirement and weight of leadership. If you do, your not going to be radically honest. Your insecurities are going to 'idgit' her and crash.


My internet connection is sporadic and tenuous at best.
Cobra feel free to post to me. Ill get to it when I can.