Cobra, I see what you are saying, but I don't agree with it.
I don't think you need your wife to delve into her own FOO issues to resolve the m/f dynamics. In fact, I think it's sortof fused to suggest that you can't develop your manly side because she is stinted in her own growth. I'm sure she IS stinted but *you* can help pull her through that by leading her. Sitting back and waiting for FOO issues to be resolved before you lead your wife into better pastures has a defeatist tone to me.
For instance, I read your description of your daughter's braces tantrum. Imo, what she was doing there was similar to a 2 year old's tantrum, who is desperately seeking the edge..the boundary. What she was needing from you, testing you to see if you'd do it, was a firm and swift putting her in her place. Raise your voice, slam on the brakes, whatever it takes and whatever your normal style of "you've pushed me too far, kiddo" is. I see that with your wife, too.
I am sortof that way. I push and push for my own way, and can be very effective in getting it, but if my H stands up to me in a forceful way, Cobra, I DO WHAT HE SAYS. Who gives a fcuk what I may say before or after, the point is that I respond on a womanly, basic level to his manliness. And I'm a happier person for it.
I think this is something you can do now, regardless of her FOO progress. Be a leader in your home, make and enforce rules, etc. Again, I urge you to not pay attention to what your wife SAYS but what she does. I have no doubt, based on what you've written, that she will respect this change and go along with what you say.
Quote: A year or two ago you were not likely to receive any of the m/f dynamics in a healthy way, right? A man playing toward your femininity could actually have come across as offensive, especially if you were not comfortable with that part of you. You may have interpreted his actions as condescending, treating you as the “weaker” more vulnerable sex, something I’m sure you would have hated to hear.
Well the thing with that is that her husband would have indeed been being condescending. So it's a little hard to compare and contrast a situation where the "man" was not acting like a man and so the woman could not act like a woman. It sounds like her new man is much more comfortable in his own Manly skin so she is much more able to respond in kind.
While our marriage may not be recovering as fast as I would like, it is moving forward, and is much better than where it was this time last year. For instance W is under considerably more stress this week since she has started back to work and the kids have just this week gone back too. Wednesday she came home late, literally barking orders to the kids from the moment she set foot in the door. In spite of this, there was no argument and the kids even confronted her on her crabbiness (after I did so as well). She didn’t apologize or really acknowledge it, but she did settle down. So things are better.
I know I should not try to “fix” her, but it is important for me to understand how I would fix her if I could, since that knowledge gives me the roadmap to follow in our growth. Without this understanding, I feel like I am just randomly trying one thing after another, hoping something will work. Know I feel like I KNOW what is wrong and that with persistence and time, we can eventually recover. This is very reassuring to me and is helping ME to better hold on to myself (though I still do my share of backsliding).
Heather,
I just had a thought about why you seem to be stuck in your recovery. What type of counselor are you seeing? Is s/he a relationship counselor, focusing on validation and affirmation between you two versus focusing more on each of individually and not trying to focus on “the marriage?”
My curiosity is for the same reasons I discussed in my thread here. Since you and your H both seem to have a TON of work to do, it could be that you two are TOO dysfunctional to do any sort of relationship counseling? This was exactly the problem my wife and I ran into. Up to a point the counseling helped. But when larger individual FOO issues and resentments began to come up, it became very difficult to dig deep and find the compassion to keep validating each other. We hit a brick wall and so did the counselor.
That is why I mentioned that in some Rs, an individual approach like Schnarch uses may be better first. Then as each of you become more self confident and secure, other validation can help to smooth other the hard feelings and re-create a bond.
When I speak of FOO analysis, I think I am really focusing on the individual, Schnarchian-type growth, the individual counseling approach. What Corri and GEL (and Blackfoot) are saying regarding m/f dynamics seems to me to bring in a mix of other validation, or the relationship counseling approach. Only recently have I felt my W and I are knowledgeable and secure enough to do this. Maybe your counselor is putting the cart before the horse?
One consequence I can see, and that I experienced with my W, is that by going to a relationship counselor, both you AND the COUNSELOR are now dependent on your H for progress. You have handed to him the power to now stonewall TWO people. My W did this and that is when our counselor threw up her hands and gave up. Perhaps you should find a counselor with a different philosophy?
Just wanted you to know I read your comments and will respond as I think it is a fruitful discussion. I do want to think about it a little bit though. I'll respond on my thread. Maybe Heather can join in as her sitch and my sitch have some commonality, but yet some differences too that could make the conversation more encompassing.
i.e. we'll talk more later, didn't want you to think I was ignoring your thoughts while posting on the other threads
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
I agree with you too (WTH is going today that I’m agreeing with so many women?) I didn’t mean to imply that I am not doing my part. I am trying to develop better alpha traits, but at the same time do what I can to lift this fog over my W.
I also see your interpretation to my daughter’s reaction, but in the past both W and I have been too reactive to this sort of thing and holding too much control over the kids. What D13 was really screaming about was her feeling of being controlled and powerless. So I felt it best to just let her vent. Putting too strong a boundary on her behavior would have just reinforced her feeling of being controlled.
Unfortunately our kids have learned from us too well and reflect a lot of the enmeshing behavior that both W and I have. So I see D13’s behavior as a test, but I also see her needing to get some interaction with me as a way of throwing her stress, anger, blame, whatever onto me. She truly is her mother. For me to jump in and place limits too quickly on her would have been a form of rescuing, I think. As it was, she processed her anger, and while she did scream and yell, she did stay within limits (not becoming physical or breaking anything) and seems to have grown just a teeny bit from the experience (or at least that’s how I’m justifying it, LOL!)
Cobra, I don't want to take up space on Corri's thread, so I will post a response on my thread after I've had some more time to think about it. Chrome, feel free to carry your reponses to my thread as well if you'd like to.
Thanks
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
In the last month... I've had at least three.... meetings with men, on a variety of things. In all cases, these men are aggressive, alpha male types, take charge, and test the sh!tola outta me.
Now, in normal Corri mode, I would typically bristle at this type of treatment and go into what I call my own 'alpha-woman' type behavior. In your face, take you on, pin you against a friggin' wall... and I would do it in a very professional, lawyerly, cross-examination, go for the juglar, type way.... but SMILE while doing it. 'Cuz I used to HATE it when I felt like a man was patronizing me in a business setting. (Like... "you wanna go to the MAT with ME, puppy dog? Bring it on... let's dance.) And quite honestly, it worked for me... but I don't know that anyone was going to buy me a drink after the meeting, kwis?
But in my last recent meetings... wow. I keep thinking to myself, 'who is this person and where did she come from?' I STILL do not allow myself to be discredited because I am a woman... but rather... I am a woman, first and foremost, and yes, you may pull out my chair for me, thank you... I listen, and then I go about my business of point/counter point through a series of well placed, thought provoking questions, rather than outright challenge. I compliment the man for his valid points, build on it and work with that, rather than prove why he is wrong... and then go about making my point.
I don't know if the end result in my business dealings are any different... but at least the guys are pulling out my chairs, opening doors for me, and buying my drinks.
In one of your posts, you said you didn't know I was sexually abused. Well. I was. And like I said, for many years, I thought it was the crux of all my problems.
I think I may have told you all at one point that in college I was a journalism major... I found my way professionally into other things, but during my time in college, I took many non-fiction and fiction writing classes. I was born to write. I haven't done it, but... hey... most of us shun what we are naturally inclined to do.
Anyway, for a few years, I did fiction writing on the side, as a means of catharsass... before I met my shrink. I wrote a story, a FICTIONAL story, about what had happened to me. When I say fiction... I altered names, places, etc. It is not the factual accounting of my tale, but every emotion that you would FEEL from this accounting is true.
I will say up front that this is a very disturbing story, most especially for men. But if you've ever wondered what it is like to be in this situation, then I think you might get it from this story.
It is very graphic and not for the faint of heart. If you would like, you can read it here: One More Day.
If it brings you any understanding at all of these types of sitches... then... well. I'll leave you all to your thoughts.
Thanks for sharing that Corri. I can only imagine what you've had to go through emotionally to be able to tell your story and become the person you are today.
Heather
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
