A very interesting discussion all. As I stated several times, it seems like my W is surpressing her sexual side, but it may be deeper and she is surpressing parts of her feminine side. With her I don't think it is woman hating, she likes all the froo-froo stuff (or however you spell it). I just think (in my unprofessional opinion) that it is over-enmeshment with her parents keeping her stuck in "daughter-mode." I don't think she has ever really "grown up." I'm sure me not being much of a man in our early marriage and my more recent mistakes have not helped either. But while she loves all the curtain colors and latest recipes and home decor TV shows, stuff like Mama Gena she has little interest in. I guess it will take an awakening on her part from within just like it did you.
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
I completely agree with your take on my marriage. I think I am approaching the point where focus on m/f dynamics will give better results. But, I also want to say that I am convinced that focusing on this only will not give the results we all are looking for. I believe bringing out the major FOO skeletons is critical to relationship recovery.
For instance, take a look at Chrome (sorry to use you as an example Chrome, hope you don’t mind). He twice was lured by the pull of an EA. This need does not come from his relationship dynamics, but from his FOO. If he had a different FOO, he would be a different person, would be married to a different woman and may have had his needs met so that his “cry for help” in way of an EA would never have been necessary. As it is, in spite of the work he did with Blackfoot, that was not sufficient to prevent a second EA. I suspect that if he does not resolve the emotional issues driving his self esteem and sense of abandonment, he will eventually have a third EA.
The last comment I saw by Blackfoot hinted that he was dealing with surfacing anger and resentment. No matter how much he acts in the “appropriate” manner toward women, this resentment will always be there. When his changing needs cannot be met through this interaction, the resentment could surface. He will have to resolve it at its origin. Once that is settled, then I think he will be in a much better position to practice his “art.”
With certain people like my wife, and the wives of Hairdog, Lou and others, focusing only on the m/f dynamic can become extremely frustrating. These women have walls built up that must come down, at least to some degree, before anything can get through. An improved m/f dynamic will help this process, but I do not think only m/f dynamics will get the job done. I have been feeling fairly recently that it may be time to start changing my focus. My W has been a little less defensive to talking about her issues, so things have improved to the point that we are moving forward again.
What I have learned is that women like my W are extremely vulnerable inside and they know it. The stronger the outside shell, the more vulnerable. You seem to be (or have been) the same way. With my W, I have noticed over the years that she will resist change, saying she changes at her own pace, works on things in her own way, and doesn’t like me trying to make her into someone else (Chrome, you listening?) I can remember only a few times when she has changed voluntarily, without must push on my part. The rest of the times, the only way change came about was to push VERY hard and put up with the backlash. But eventually she would change. Just like my daughter’s tantrum over the braces, W seems to do all she can to fight change and has used almost every trick in the book (whether she realized it or not). But what I have recently realized is that this is just her natural way of changing, so like I did with my daughter, I let her vent, rant and rave, but I keep on message and keep the pressure steady. Eventually she adjusts and settles down (btw, D13 has been VERY pleasant since having the braces put on this past Monday).
Cobra I do agree that the FOO issues will need to be addressed....I think you need to be careful though that YOU don't push too hard for it (which I think you run the risk of). FOO issues won't be dealt with by you prodding and analyzing her....they have to be dealt with by her, as she realizes they need to be dealt with.
I do believe though if you concentrate on the m/f dynamics...that she just might eventually have her own "AH HA!" moment...just like Corrie did.
For instance, take a look at Chrome (sorry to use you as an example Chrome, hope you don’t mind). He twice was lured by the pull of an EA. This need does not come from his relationship dynamics, but from his FOO.
I this is a complete generalization and although you may be right on target with Chrome (only he can say for sure) I disagree that this is true enough to generalize it the way you have.
What about people who are married for years and years before they ever even contemplated an A of any kind? Was their FOO simply repressed during those other years and then all of a sudden it surfaces? I find that very unlikely. A R that becomes empty for someone is enough of a push for an A without having to dig all that much deeper in most cases.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
I hear you, and I do agree with you to an extent. But like GEL says... the only thing you can really do is bring things to awareness... 'pushing,' I think, if done too liberally, creates more problems than they solve.
AND... there are different ways to 'push.' I've never responded well to manipulation and negative criticism. I can handle constructive criticism in doses, spaced apart... but I normally respond MUCH better to SUBTLE encouragement and confidence building. Once I gain momentum, the rewards then become their own motivator.
Chrome:
It may not be that your wife hates women... but there could be some very serious resentment issues over how she views some of her wifely 'roles.' I know a number of my girlfriends don't hate being female, per se... but they do resent the hell out of many of their 'wifely' duties.
I think you also made a good point about your W growing up. I don't know her... just from my own experience, there is a HUGE difference between being a 'girl' and stuck in that mental framework of fantasies and entitlement issues and how things are 'supposed' to be... and being a woman.
I don't know what to tell you, because there isn't anything YOU can do, per se. Hence... part of the reason for the state of your M. But you know that far better than I do.
For myself, I've always found it easy to cultivate the Mama Gena side of myself. I didn't even think twice about it. And yet, I had a hard time letting the man be the boss. I deliberately chose someone who would let me be the boss and then promptly lost respect for him. Learning how to let him lead, encourage him to lead and compliment him on his leading was a long journey for me. However, I knew from the 2nd date with MrH that he was a weird mixture of Doormat and Volcano. Most of the time, he would go along with me and do what I wanted. And, then there were the times when he'd suddenly explode and lay down the law. Although I couldn't see it at the time, it was these times that kept me interested, alive, passionate for him. When he suddenly began suppressing this side of himself--all in the name of Jesus--man, did things start to unravel.
At the time, I blamed him (you know how much I blamed him! ) but I had a lot o learning to do, as well.
It is very very very hard for me to let him lead and yet I am actually happy when I do. Go figure.
Again I’m in total agreement with you. The reason I hang on to pushing a little more into my W’s FOO is that not doing so lets her stay stuck and keeps the fighting and reactivity going. Like Happy Giant’s wife, I think my W just does not want to confront some hard issues about her past and uses all excuses and deflections that she can to avoid them. My avoiding this will not move the marriage forward. Couple this with poor self esteem on her part (like we see in Chrome and HG’s wives) and the m/f dynamics just seem to go nowhere. M/f interplay only works to the extent each person is comfortable with those roles, or at least is able to tolerate any discomfort long enough to get accustomed to it.
Corri, this is why your thread is so interesting and relevant to me. A year or two ago you were not likely to receive any of the m/f dynamics in a healthy way, right? A man playing toward your femininity could actually have come across as offensive, especially if you were not comfortable with that part of you. You may have interpreted his actions as condescending, treating you as the “weaker” more vulnerable sex, something I’m sure you would have hated to hear. What you wanted at that time (and what my W still wants now) is to be treated equally as a male. So if I comment to my W that she is a tough, hard woman, she takes it as a compliment. I suspect that not too recently you would have too. But now, the “new” Corri might be able to see that such a comment is not all that flattering to a true caring, empathic, nurturing woman.
As for the “pushing,” I see this as an inertia sort of thing. At the beginning there is need for some really hard pushing to get this moving, to bring things to the other person’s attention. Chrome’s EA is exactly this. Once the spouse understands the seriousness of the matter, they will hopefully pick up some of that momentum. But for others, internal defenses are so strong that they will resist the movement at all costs (again, see HG’s wife as a clear example). For you Corri and GEL, I see both of you are sufficiently aware and open minded to pick up that momentum. My W has shown the opposite tendency (though I know she will argue the opposite).
You still seem to miss the core of what is driving your problems. Chrome’s lack of connection with his wife is entirely due to his FOO issues. He was conditioned to feel and react as he does by his unfortunate upbringing. It is not his fault but it is his problem. Because of how he was shaped, he can only find attraction to a woman who will give the kind of nurturing he longs for.
If he were to date a “healthier” woman who understood boundaries and did not feel compelled to rescue men, she would not put out the nurturing, rescuing vibes that Chrome requires to feel attraction. They would have never gotten together. His FOO helps to determine who he marries and so determines (in part) the level of EC in the marriage. Whether he decides to have an EA or not has a lot to do with his level of confidence, his level of self pity and martyrdom.
What about people who are married for years and years before they ever even contemplated an A of any kind? Was their FOO simply repressed during those other years and then all of a sudden it surfaces? I find that very unlikely. A R that becomes empty for someone is enough of a push for an A without having to dig all that much deeper in most cases.
I think people who have EAs are really making a passive-aggressive cry for help and attention. They are scared to confront their own issues, responsibilities and problems in the marriage, so they “act out.” Others may turn to alcohol, drugs, shopping, etc. The choice is determined in part by the level of denial, resentment, bravery, who knows what else. Having an EA does not mean FOO issues suddenly surface. In fact, I suspect the are even more buried, because if they were to surface, the person may be able to recognize why and what s/he is feeling/wanting and understand that and EA may not solve the problem.
Your statement implies that an empty relationship is a force that acts upon you and forces you to seek out an EA. In other words, you are the victim of circumstance. This is simply not true. You are NOT a victim in your marriage. You may have been as a child at the hands of abusive parents, but you are as responsible for the lack of EC in your marriage and the factors that contributed to your EA as your H is. To me, the fact that my comments hit a nerve with you tells me you still have not come to accept this. Try to open those blinders a little more. It really is to help you get what you really want.
ooooo, I like this so much I am going to print it *printing out jeenyuss Cobras quote*
I don't mind the sun sometime
The images it shows
I can taste you on my lips
And smell you in my clothes
Cinnamon and Sugar
And softly spoken lies
You never know just how you look
Through someone elses eyes
BHS-"Pepper"
Yeah, you are right. Before I came upon my little self-revelation (which to me has changed everything, I don't know that anyone else could really have helped me... simply because I didn't even KNOW it was in there. It would have been like someone walking up to me and saying..."Hey, Corri, we've signed you up for an eye transplant so you won't be blind anymore."
WHAT!?
Well, Cobra... you've made progress in your M, or certainly with yourself... it will be very interesting to see if you can come up with a way to potentially explore this issue with your W.
) but I had a lot o learning to do, as well.