The whole "learn to be a 'girl'" thing is very interesting... after all, when little boys really really want to insult another boy, what do they call him? A GIRL! I was also raised not to be "girly." Ditto most of what the women of the board have posted.
But here's the interesting that struck me about this topic: some of us women have felt that it was insulting to be called a "girl" because it meant bitchy moody, etc-- what Corri said.
Put that up against the parallel comments that some guys (Paul most recently) have said about how they don't want to be an "alpha male," as though alpha male automatically means a bully-jock-domineering abuser.
It seems as though both sides have been so set on avoiding the unpleasant stereotype that goes with Boy and Girl that we've been cutting off our noses to spite our faces.
I think this is an interesting topic because I think the issue is relevant to both someone like you who was LD and competitive with men and also someone like me who was HD but strove to be independent of men otherwise. I also found BF's Alpha Male discussion helpful, not because I buy the concept "hook, line and sinker" but because it made me think about my own personal version of "sexism" or what I consider "manly" in a non-judgmental way. Thinking about what I consider to be "manly" naturally leads to considering what "I" consider to be "feminine".
For instance, when I tried to imagine my ideal male partner I came up with Hank. But I realized that Hank is simply my idealized concept of who I would want to be if I were a man. Hank is a high-functioning masculine version of me. If I was the best me possible I wouldn't need a Hank in my life because I would be Hank's twin sister with all the same "super-powers"-LOL- but "girlied" up.
I think if you try to directly make yourself more feminine, you might make the mistake of just trying to make yourself into a "type" that our culture accepts as more feminine. For instance, a Type 8 woman might try to make herself into more of a Type 2. However, if you try to imagine your ideal man and then you pretend like you work for Mattel and are trying to make his twin sister then you can figure out how to make yourself better and more feminine at the same time or just appreciate how great and feminine you already are. For instance, Hank is not thin but he is in great shape and he knows how to build beautiful bookshelves. Therefore, I realize that I want to be in great shape (which is a gender neutral ideal) and I want to be able to build beautiful bookshelves (which falls into the 'masculine' category in my personal version of sexism). Therefore, I am doing the right thing by going to the gym more often and I need to figure out how to either accept or transcend the fact that I consider woodworking to be a masculine activity.
One mystery writer I really enjoy has a female character who is always falling in love with the men who move into the cottage next door to her. The character's good friend frequently has thoughts along the line of "She keeps 'falling in love' with unsuitable men because she doesn't really like herself.". I think this is kind of what your recent revelation has been telling you. Corri doesn't need to be Cory or compete with Cory or date Cory. Corri at her best is free to date and/or mate all around the wheel of types. Anyone from Architect Alan to Poet Pete to Rocker Rick to Zookeeper Zeb.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
P.S. I think the Corri doll should be called Corporate Cutie Corri. I see her in petite power suits with skirts that show off some leg and high heels that match her cell phone skins. She also comes with a sailboat and some crisp little outfits for herself and her boys for the weekend.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Thanks for taking the time to type out such a detailed reply. I was not aware that you had sexual abuse issues in your past. I'm so sorry to hear about that and so glad to see you've been able to recover so well. I've been putting a great deal of thought into this topic too, as you will see...
I don't know that I have anger toward my mother, per se. I think... maybe... like Mojo said... there is a group of us females that were born during the feminist movement... our mothers were burning bras (or not), getting out into the work force, blazing trails... believing that that was a good thing (which I think I was to some extent)... but us girls were left going... sooooo.... better to be male or female? We kind of got lost in the mix, somehow.
I hear you, and I think I understand, and this falls along the lines of a conversation W and I had this weekend. While the kids and I were on vacation W was reading the book "You Don't Have to Take it Anymore" by Steven Stosny (I'd mentioned this book before). Not unexpectedly, she was taking from it more justification of why she feels she was an emotionally "battered" wife and getting pissed again over the jail incident earlier this year.
So we talked for a while about what she was going to do (she was puffing up and making those divorce intimidations again). After she backed off from implying she would still get divorced sometime in the future (she did not want to "tip" her hand too much about this option), I told her to just do it and have the guts to face her choice and stop trying to make me be the one to file. I told her what you told me and others, Corri, that she should make a decision one way or the other and get on with it.
Putting the responsibility squarely in front of her seemed cool her jets a little, so we were able to talk further. I focused back on the book which speaks of using compassion toward others to work through anger. We discussed (again) where her anger comes from. She did not think she had anger toward her mother but that she feels compassion toward both her parents for her mother's abuse by her father. The strange thing to me is that I am not sure how much "abuse" her mother tolerated. My W even says she only remembers one or two fights, but they seem to have made a strong impression on her (compared to the many knockdown drag-outs I remember).
I know her parents argued and her father was very jealous and suspicious of her mother. I can deduce that he was the pursuer and she was the avoider, like our relationship. So it seems W mimics her mother's behavior by running and avoiding an insecure husband - me. This sets up more insecurity and more anxiety and a stronger, more aggressive, more controlling pursuit.
But I told W that her avoidance and running is very abusive, controlling and scary for me. She says she is only on the defense and trying to get away and find space. I told her that she does the exact same thing when she is in attack mode, she gains control by triggering anxiety in me by making ultimatums and threatening to leave. I can see no difference in her actions whether she is attacking or on the defense.
I think this is why she has developed poor trust in me. She sees my pursuit when she is trying to get space as an immoral sort of tactic, that I should give her more respect for her needs and space. I can see how this is true, but unless I can tell the difference, it is hard to know which mode she is in. In contrast, I told her that she knows fully well when I am in attack mode because I am pursuing. When in defense mode I withdraw. My actions in these two states are exacts opposites. I think I am much easier to read.
Getting back to her, I told her that as much as she fantasizes about a nurturing, non-assertive H, she could never be married to someone like that. As soon as they both go into defense mode and withdraw, the relationship is dead. Without at least one partner pursuing, I think it is hard to bring two people together. Only sufficient self awareness and internal growth (like we all have on this board) can keep two avoiders coming back to each other. So I told W that if she leaves me she will have to find someone else just like me (and her dad). She had to think about this a little while and asked a few questions on what other options an avoider might have (reformulating her future divorce plans).
Whenever we speak of her parents and their fighting, W gets all choked up and starts crying, especially when saying that she doesn't want our kids to go through the same. While I understand this concern, I am very baffled by this choking up. I told W that while I thought she was empathic toward her mother and her situation, I said that I think W is really choking up for herself, feeling sorry for herself and that scared little girl who just wanted protection. I know this feeling since I too recall it from my youth and my parent's fighting. But my parents are still here and I can still argue with them if I need to and try to get that understanding and acceptance that W can no longer get. I can't help but think this is what is really choking up W and this is the source of her anger - anger at life, at those who can still get love from a living parent, those who don't have to hang on to only memories for comfort.
I see this dynamic and have always seen it, though maybe not in these words, but any mention of this hurt only seemed to make her angry. That makes sense too but it is no help in moving forward with intimacy in our marriage. I told her that I thought she had resolved the hurt her parents made on her but had gone about by taking pity on them. Nothing wrong with this but it seems to serve as a deflection for her to avoid bestowing compassion on herself. In so doing she was putting herself up one notch to become the "parent" or bigger person forgiving the child. I think this sets up a very subtle wall where she does not have to feel her pain, she is too busy rescuing others.
I can also see how this could be an especially effective strategy for surviving extreme pain and hurt. But it requires the creation and maintenance of certain self delusions, otherwise this house of cards could collapse and all that pain could come flooding back in.
I think this is where her resentment begins. Anything and anyone who challenges this "system" is a threat and becomes the target of her conditioned survival skills. Furthermore, the seriousness of such incidents causes W to see things in a more black and white mode. The world is either for her or against her. Uncertain activities (like swimming) become life or death decisions (no gray) and no tactic thing is too severe to avoid this threat. After all, if her parents would have taken such an extreme position to hold the family together, W might still have a mother, her brother, her dad and a family.
Like I said, I don't know that it was anything that my parents did or didn't do... it was just something that I SAW very clearly with my own child eyes. My world largely involved men who had no respect for women... my mother was bouncing from R to R, M to M... and given, like BF says, men 'lead,' I was naturally following and mirroring what was in my life... a lack of respect for women in general. No one in my world EVER celebrated femininity...
I think my wife could have written this too. She's made many similar statements. Lil is reflecting the same thought too.
So I can't really BLAME anyone for these mistaken notions... I just came to them on my own, without conscious thought.
Well, I'm not so sure about that... I think there were plenty of people male and female promoting that idea, to the detriment of so many women. There was lot of good that came from feminism, like better financial equality.
So then I got into reading about Peace Between the Sheets and the whole male/female attraction dance... and I guess I just realized I was following more of a 'male' pattern than a female pattern... and how, in doing so... I was creating a lot of my own problems. BF has gone on and on and on about women learning how to 'surrender,' to men... and I didn't get it, didn't understand what that meant... how does a women surrender without becoming passive?
I ordered this book sometime back but have not read it yet. It is next on my list but this insight you speak of is definitely pushing into higher priority. Learning the difference between female surrender and a female acting assertive may be just what I need to be aware of (and W too).
I don't know... one day, I woke up and noticed I wasn't angry anymore. I WANTED to figure out this whole female thing... I WANTED to learn how to be soft and gentle and feminine... loose the hard edge.
This is one of those turning points, isn't it, when you realized there is nothing to fight about, there is no reason to hold on to the anger. The anger serves no more useful purpose. So the key seems to be in gaining the knowledge, the self confidence, self esteem to realize there is nothing to fight about. All the work and discussion on this board is to gain the tools and practice the abilities needed to climb that mountain to reach this one simple realization - there is really nothing to fight about.
Yep, you are soooo right - Blackfoot had it exactly right. But until you master all that other crap, his simple wisdom can be so impossible to see, much less put into practice.
I have always been incredibly independent and self-sufficient... and I'd say that has been a big part of the problem. I've been TOO independent and self-sufficient. I will even go so far as to say that my behavior, more than likely, contributed a great deal to the abusive situation... for I was always competing... like having two alpha males in the same territory. MY behavior was clouding the issue... and because I was not aware of it... I couldn't change it... I couldn't back off without feeling I was losing somehow.
True, true, true....the fog of ignorance keeps us fighting to survive, creating a self-fulfilling conflict that only seems to heighten the stakes of the game, when all we need to really do is relax and learn to trust. But note Corri, that as long as you're in an abusive relationship, developing that crucial trust needed to relax and realize there is nothing to fight over is just sooooo hard to do, even for those "experts." The fog of emotion can be so thick the working through the fog of ignorance becomes very difficult.
I don't know, Cobra. I guess because I was finally in an atmosphere after H and I split where I felt 'safe' enough to let down my guard, I could actually HEAR what someone was trying to tell me.
Isn't this the sad truth? It is our job here to learn this lesson before divorce and not after.
The answer has always been with me... inside of me... just could never, ever see it. Only until I was brave enough, have enough confidence to try it (meaning being who I am) a different way did I see that there might actually be a more efficient, more successful way of expressing who I am... and how that might affect how I relate to others... especially men.
Yes! Yes! Yes! You're insights have been truly valuable for me Corri! I want to truly thank you for your help. ...ooh, and if I said anything mean to you in the past.. well, I didn't mean it... you're not so bad after all – for a girl!
Cobra- You said something very smart to me once that I think you should say to your own wife. Something along the lines of "You are still angry at me because of incident X because you fear that I will repeat my behavior during incident X in the future. There is no way that I can 100%reassure you that I will never behave in that way in the future BUT you can 100% reassure yourself that you have grown as a person to the extent that you will never again exhibit the behavior that you did during incident X so you can be absolutely confident that incident X will never occur again. You can't change my buttons but you can change your own or at least render them harder to push."
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
LOL- Well, really I think you said something specific about how I didn't have to worry about my H treating me cruelly if I cried when sexually rejected because I wasn't going to do that anymore but I generalized it into the above.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Given how you were on the BOARDS when we first met... and given I was kind of 'in your face' about it... well... let's just say... if the sparks fly between you and your W like they did when you and I first communicated... well...
... there is a lot of trust rebuilding to do. If you understand the dynamics and male/female attraction, I think you could do this, with or without your wife's agreement. You'd just 'woo' her all over again... but at some point, in order for her to be a satisfying 'partner' within your R... not just a wife... she's got some learning to do.
But. She seems willing to read... and explore. You could continue to foster this curiosity within her through encouragement...
And btw... I'd spend more time, if I were you... learning about the dynamics of m/f attraction than I would analyzing your wife's FOO issues. Personally. She isn't going to see it, or the significance, really, until she starts experiencing some successes. imho.
Quote: I... found BF's Alpha Male discussion helpful, not because I buy the concept "hook, line and sinker" but because it made me think about my own personal version of "sexism" or what I consider "manly" in a non-judgmental way. Thinking about what I consider to be "manly" naturally leads to considering what "I" consider to be "feminine".
It wasn't his alpha male discussion, for me... it was his elusive comments about male/female attraction, and how that works, exactly. He can certainly tell the guys how to beef up his maleness to increase the female attraction... but he never really went into the female side of that... hence... my exploration of it. And there really, really, really IS something to it.
Quote: I think if you try to directly make yourself more feminine, you might make the mistake of just trying to make yourself into a "type" that our culture accepts as more feminine.
Hmmm. I'm not trying to make myself 'more' anything... rather... I am exploring unchartered territory within myself. Kind of like being 'left' brain all my life, and now wanting to develop my 'right' brain capabilities... eh?
Quote: "She keeps 'falling in love' with unsuitable men because she doesn't really like herself.". I think this is kind of what your recent revelation has been telling you. Corri doesn't need to be Cory or compete with Cory or date Cory. Corri at her best is free to date and/or mate all around the wheel of types. Anyone from Architect Alan to Poet Pete to Rocker Rick to Zookeeper Zeb.
Well. Maybe. Sorta. Kinda. Not really. Ever had 'your colors' done, Mo? Some lady tells you if you have blue undertones to your skin, or yellow undertones to your skin... she looks at your hair color, your eye color... then pegs you as a winter/spring/summer/fall type coloring person? And lo and behold... you start buying those kinds of colors of clothes, make-up, etc., your whole look just... changes... not necessarily because of the cut of the clothes, or the types of the clothes, but just because you are now pursuing things that 'enhance' your natural coloring, rather than compete with it...
that's kind of what I've done here.... I'm finding behaviors, attitudes, etc., that enhance my natural state of being, rather than compete with my natural state of being. That doesn't mean I start acting 'dumb' because I now like to take bubble baths and paint my nails, shop, etc. That doesn't mean I start losing games on purpose, or stop being my natural spunky self. It just means that how I go about doing those things might be slightly different... not because I want to manipulate someone, but because I feel better about who I am and how I express her within my own framework... does that make any sense?
Btw, I like the Cute Corporate Corri doll concept. I'll include a copule 'manuals' on boundaries, relationships and m/f attraction... make a few cool million, retire to the grand caymons... and fly all my Sisters from the SSM down to live with me on the beach.
To all the girls who are exploring their femininity,
This month's Oprah magazine is dedicated to the art of shopping. I haven't read it yet but I can tell you that shopping is not my forte. I dress pretty well (especially at work or for events) but that is because I have a very well dressed Mother so I have a basic fashion sense that keeps me from spending too much time shopping. I do a lot on-line.
I do very fondly recall a shopping trip that I went on when I turned 30. My ex-H asked me what I wanted for my b-day (DD9 was little then) and I just said - to go shopping alone then come home and have dinner with my family. I spent three or four blissful hours shopping. Mom and I try to go together about twice a year and that really helps get some basic pieces for that season so I don't wear only the rags from the previous year.
